Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

[edatoakrun]

I have no intention of continuing further.

Don't do it Drees!

Life is worth living!

Take a 100+ mile- on-a-single-charge drive in your LEAF, that should cheer you up...

 

[mtndrew1]

...saying how H2 fueling requires special training, loss of range will occur over the life of the vehicle (but don't say how much to expect).

This is the first I've heard of range loss over the life of the vehicle. Any chance this was just a boilerplate from the RAV4EV days or is this another nail in the FCEV coffin?

Would you mind posting the blurb about that from the email?

 

[epirali]

...saying how H2 fueling requires special training, loss of range will occur over the life of the vehicle (but don't say how much to expect).

This is the first I've heard of range loss over the life of the vehicle. Any chance this was just a boilerplate from the RAV4EV days or is this another nail in the FCEV coffin?

Would you mind posting the blurb about that from the email?

I can't find data on the Mirai, but this study shows around 5000 hours for Gen 2 FC to drop 10%. I think this compares favorably to batteries. Even assuming an average speed of 30 mph that gives you 150K to 10% drop. I think even the best thermally controlled current gen batteries will have more degradation by calendar and use at that mileage.

http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/47279.pdf

 

[GRA]

...saying how H2 fueling requires special training, loss of range will occur over the life of the vehicle (but don't say how much to expect).

This is the first I've heard of range loss over the life of the vehicle. Any chance this was just a boilerplate from the RAV4EV days or is this another nail in the FCEV coffin?

Would you mind posting the blurb about that from the email?

I can't find data on the Mirai, but this study shows around 5000 hours for Gen 2 FC to drop 10%. I think this compares favorably to batteries. Even assuming an average speed of 30 mph that gives you 150K to 10% drop. I think even the best thermally controlled current gen batteries will have more degradation by calendar and use at that mileage.

http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/47279.pdf

Loss of range in fuel cells over time was discussed in some detail in the dedicated H2/Fuel cells thread.

 

[mtndrew1]

That thread became very tiring with the bickering and whatnot. Sorry I missed that bit.

So the FC stack becomes less efficient with the same amount of fuel over a given period of time? Or it generates electricity slower with the fuel at the same efficiency?

In any event, if it really is a 10% loss over 150,000 miles it's a non-issue. Even ICE cars might lose 10% of their fuel economy at that age.

 

[GRA]

That thread became very tiring with the bickering and whatnot. Sorry I missed that bit.

So the FC stack becomes less efficient with the same amount of fuel over a given period of time? Or it generates electricity slower with the fuel at the same efficiency?

In any event, if it really is a 10% loss over 150,000 miles it's a non-issue. Even ICE cars might lose 10% of their fuel economy at that age.

Yes, the signal/noise ratio does drop pretty low there at times. In order to keep this topic free of non-Mirai specific discussion, see that topic for my reply to you.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Being curious about the Mirai...
Next I receive an email from the dealer asking me for a $500 deposit and includes a 2 page document saying how H2 fueling requires special training, loss of range will occur over the life of the vehicle (but don't say how much to expect).

Perhaps Nissan should have offered special training to plug into the first generation Yazaki brand CHAdeMO plugs (with two levers and the button).

The fuel cell degradation is something not brought up often. I wonder what happens if just one tank full of "impure" H2 is used? More degradation? Failure? Loss of power? Won't run?

 

[epirali]

Being curious about the Mirai...
Next I receive an email from the dealer asking me for a $500 deposit and includes a 2 page document saying how H2 fueling requires special training, loss of range will occur over the life of the vehicle (but don't say how much to expect).

Perhaps Nissan should have offered special training to plug into the first generation Yazaki brand CHAdeMO plugs (with two levers and the button).

The fuel cell degradation is something not brought up often. I wonder what happens if just one tank full of "impure" H2 is used? More degradation? Failure? Loss of power? Won't run?

Kind of like saying what happens if a tank of impure gasoline is used in a high performance engine. Bad things happen. But then again odds of this happening are pretty much zero.

I guess this will be something to use for FUD once there are actually hydrogen filling stations open. Right now lack of availability is a much more solid argument imo.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I wonder what happens if just one tank full of "impure" H2 is used? More degradation? Failure? Loss of power? Won't run?

Kind of like saying what happens if a tank of impure gasoline is used in a high performance engine. Bad things happen. But then again odds of this happening are pretty much zero.

I guess this will be something to use for FUD once there are actually hydrogen filling stations open. Right now lack of availability is a much more solid argument imo.

So, it's not "FUD" then, as you clearly recognize it is possible. I think everybody has gotten a bad tank of gasoline in their lifetime, and the likelihood for damage is small. Maybe the fuel injectors / carburetor will need an expensive cleaning, and flush the gas tank, and throw in a new filter or two. That's typically it.

What happens to the Mirai fuel cell with the load of impure H2? Is it toast? Can it be cleaned?

Just saying that it is rare, or FUD, is a nice deflection, but I'm looking for a bonafide data, not BS.

 

[epirali]

... I wonder what happens if just one tank full of "impure" H2 is used? More degradation? Failure? Loss of power? Won't run?

Kind of like saying what happens if a tank of impure gasoline is used in a high performance engine. Bad things happen. But then again odds of this happening are pretty much zero.

I guess this will be something to use for FUD once there are actually hydrogen filling stations open. Right now lack of availability is a much more solid argument imo.

So, it's not "FUD" then, as you clearly recognize it is possible. I think everybody has gotten a bad tank of gasoline in their lifetime, and the likelihood for damage is small. Maybe the fuel injectors / carburetor will need an expensive cleaning, and flush the gas tank, and throw in a new filter or two. That's typically it.

What happens to the Mirai fuel cell with the load of impure H2? Is it toast? Can it be cleaned?

Just saying that it is rare, or FUD, is a nice deflection, but I'm looking for a bonafide data, not BS.

Actually it is not BS, and there can be no data as it probably is an extremely rare condition. Because:

a) as it is has been pointed out over and over there are VERY FEW fuel cell vehicles in use today, AND

b) there are very few refueling stations available today.

Even past that can you even propose a theoretical scenario in which "impurities" may occur in the process of H2 production. Because if you have a scenario in mind, rather then a pure hypothetical then it can be researched. Otherwise it is simply FUD. It is a question to create a "perceived" weakness.

Oh and by the way based on the particular impurity that MAY be introduced in gasoline it may not be a simple multi thousand dollar "clean up." Because THEORETICALLY there are impurities that can do permanent damage to seals, gaskets and even blow out a cylinder or two. Not likely mind you, but THEORETICALLY possible.

By the way the paragraph above is a great example of FUD tactics. And here is one you will particularly appreciate:

My entire house ALMOST burned to the ground when my Tesla battery ALMOST exploded. I plugged it after a normal drive, and the next day found the car dead. What had happened was that the battery management system had a sudden failure and essentially shunted 240 volts directly into the battery system (I heard all fans kick up to maximum as soon as I plugged in but thought it was the aggressive cooling after driving). Next day the car was dead, and nothing could revive it. After multiple visits, towing and diagnostics we found out 1/2 of the battery cells had opened all the protection fuses to prevent fire and potential explosion. But it was ALMOST an explosion. You have to admit it was a possibility. The replacement cost was only $40K, so at least it was manageable. Unlike what may or may not be needed IF a Mirai gets some "bad hydrogen."

See what I did there?

 

[DaveEV]

Take a 100+ mile- on-a-single-charge drive in your LEAF, that should cheer you up...

Hah! Simply not possible in my neck of the woods with my remaining capacity. Only went 42 miles from 100% to LBW the other day, though it was a decent amount of higher speed driving averaging 3.6 mi/kWh.

Would you mind posting the blurb about that from the email?

From the PDF I received from my closest Mirai dealer. I will try to get a copy up on DropBox or something.

THE MIRAI FC DRIVING RANGE MAY DECREASE OVER TIME
As with all vehicles, the vehicle components of the Mirai FC will wear with time and use and vehicle range will decrease.
Vehicle range reduction is normal and is not covered under the 8-year/100,000-mile warranty.
The EPA-rated driving range of the new MIRAI FC is anticipated to be approximately 300 miles per complete tank fueling.
The actual range may vary considerably due to driving styles, degrees of acceleration, accessory load (e.g., heater and A/C usage), operating environment and road conditions.

 

[evnow]

In the Tucson FCEV facebook there was a post about how one of the stations was closing because of impure H2. So it isn't FUD ...

 

[GRA]

IIRR, one of the requirements for the commercial stations is a required level of filtering, and there is also some required level for H2 production, not that either guarantees that contamination can't happen. I'm sure it's mentioned in one of the ARB or other reports, which can be found in the H2 and Fuel cells thread, but I'm too lazy to go looking for it. So, does anyone have anything specifically Mirai-related to talk about here?

 

[evnow]

Does anyone know how much Toyota is losing per Mirai ? Also how much Japanese govt is subsidizing them ?

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Also maybe oil industry incentives? Toyota may not be actually losing any money.

 

[GRA]

Does anyone know how much Toyota is losing per Mirai ? Also how much Japanese govt is subsidizing them ?

No, and no, but the Japanese government is certainly on board with helping to kick-start the fueling infrastructure. I suspect Toyota is probably losing at least $10k per Mirai at the moment, possibly more. But they do take a long view of things, and seeing as how they made a profit of $18 billion in FY 2015 ($17.9b in 2014), I think they can afford it.

 

[finman100]

I can't resist...so has anyone here had their electricity fuel go bad or stagnant?

Yes, batteries degrade, i get that. Hydrogen for cars I don't get. thankfully there are a few companies leaning EV. Everyday I thank Nissan and Tesla for leading us towards a non-H2 future for passenger vehicles.

 

[epirali]

In the Tucson FCEV facebook there was a post about how one of the stations was closing because of impure H2. So it isn't FUD ...

Sorry to disagree but that post definitely meets all the tactics of FUD. Come up with a hypothetical (something that has not happened), then muse about what would happen if this unlikely scenario occurred. No data, no analysis, just try to paint fear, uncertainty and plant doubt. This is the definition of FUD. You yourself accused someone else of FUD for simply stating numerical facts about Teslas earnings. Yet this much more obvious example is not FUD why, because you don't agree?

Did the impure H2 actually get used and now there are reported damaged fuel cells? And why would this be any different than if I plugged my BEV into a faulty station and blew up parts of my car? It is a very unlikely edge case that is in no way informing the real issues of BEVs.

Pointing out factual weaknesses, like lack of H2 stations, limited availability, efficiency, etc are arguments. Musing about how something MAY happen and it MAY cost a lot is not argument, it is a tactic.

 

[epirali]

Does anyone know how much Toyota is losing per Mirai ? Also how much Japanese govt is subsidizing them ?

This article with a third part analysis implies $60K-100K per car, which honestly doesn't really sound that out of line considering it is really first experiment. To put that into perspective:

"It's widely assumed to have lost significant money on each Toyota Prius it sold for the car's first eight to 10 years."

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095773_how-much-money-does-the-2016-toyota-mirai-lose-a-lot-perhaps

 

[GRA]

Does anyone know how much Toyota is losing per Mirai ? Also how much Japanese govt is subsidizing them ?

This article with a third part analysis implies $60K-100K per car, which honestly doesn't really sound that out of line considering it is really first experiment. To put that into perspective:

"It's widely assumed to have lost significant money on each Toyota Prius it sold for the car's first eight to 10 years."

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095773_how-much-money-does-the-2016-toyota-mirai-lose-a-lot-perhaps

I remember seeing that article when it came out, and deciding that it didn't cross my personal threshold of likely reliability, given that it was from outside Toyota and based on information or calculations which weren't stated. For all we know, the guy threw darts at the wall to come up with his estimate. Based on what Toyota has said they are clearly losing a significant amount on each Mirai, but just how significant, only they know.