The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

[AndyH]

Phil - you'll need a larger trailer to hold the wood gasifier equipment...

like on the episode of "Stuck with Hackett" ? not too practical, not sure where Phil mounts the #100 propane tank to run the Capstone.

http://science.discovery.com/videos/stuck-with-hackett-column-of-awkward.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh no no no! Not like that At All! :lol:

And definitely not like this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P7zFw_xff0[/youtube]

More like these:

http://gekgasifier.com/
http://victorygasifier.com/products/

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEH3CqGsVFM[/youtube]
Jump to 2:18 for the intro and 4:20 for engine start.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kuufpDZAo[/youtube]
20 kW genset fed by woodgas ... arc and MIG welders are the load. Berkeley 2011

Not as easy to tow as a propane tank, but sure fits the "kick the tires and light the fires" routine.

 

[edatoakrun]

Very promising, IMO, that a significant concern understands the correct scale and use of a BEV “range extender”.

Now they've got to have auto manufactures share their conceptual enlightenment, and bring a 5-10kW Micro turbine to market, at not too great a price premium, over a more conventional ICE range extender.

Micro turbines seek macro market

Bladon Jets is on the road to making micro gas turbines for electric cars...

“The high power density of the gas turbine means we could fit a 6kW genset into a biscuit tin,”
says Barrett.

“And, with air bearings, air cooling and clean combustion, it would not require the bulky oil, water and exhaust treatment systems of conventional internal combustion engines. Gas turbines are multi-fuel – liquid or gas. And, with just one or two rotating parts, they are quieter and more reliable than their reciprocating counterparts. They are the ultimate combustion engine.”

Bladon plans to build a complete range of engines. “We will have 6, 12, 20, 35 and 100kW machines in time,” says Barrett.

“We already have two customers for our first engine. However, I am not convinced that 50kW is the right size for the high-volume automotive market. The sweet spot for Jaguar and other high-end manufacturers might be in that range, but for a small electric vehicle the range extender may need to be only 5-10kW. So we are working on a smaller engine.”...

http://profeng.com/features/micro-turbines-seek-macro-market/page:1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[N952JL]

For curising long distances on the Interstate I believe a 20kW genset would be better. At 70/75 on the interstate I believe the Leaf will consume between 20 and 25 kW so anything less would be depleting the battery. With the right size micro genset the cost to generate 20 to 25 kW would not be any greater than 10 kW. I believe 5 to 10 kW would be too small. It would be nice to reach your destination and unhook with almost a full battery charge.

 

[edatoakrun]

For curising long distances on the Interstate I believe a 20kW genset would be better. At 70/75 on the interstate I believe the Leaf will consume between 20 and 25 kW so anything less would be depleting the battery. With the right size micro genset the cost to generate 20 to 25 kW would not be any greater than 10 kW. I believe 5 to 10 kW would be too small. It would be nice to reach your destination and unhook with almost a full battery charge.

Wouldn't you rather get your full charge, by plugging in at your destination, to a grid-connected combined cycle turbine, generating electricity at about twice the rate of efficiency as the turbine in your car?

Or even better, by plugging in to partly or completely renewable grid electricity?

 

[evnow]

How is this for a real micro range extender ?

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7006-Micro-range-extender-for-Model-S" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bladon provides a micro range extender with 6kW electric power but only 15kg in weight.

This can extend Leaf's turtle run for miles & miles :lol:

 

[smkettner]

I am happy for all the innovation but I think this will go nowhere. To me it just looks wrong burning fuel behind an EV. For 30k+ I would much rather pull a large battery pack or get by on the existing oem systems.

 

[edatoakrun]

How is this for a real micro range extender ?

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7006-Micro-range-extender-for-Model-S" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bladon provides a micro range extender with 6kW electric power but only 15kg in weight.

This can extend Leaf's turtle run for miles & miles :lol:

Actually, 6 kWh Would almost double the 2011-12 LEAF's range, to over 150 miles at 55 mph, wouldn't it?

What's so funny about that?

 

[DrInnovation]

How is this for a real micro range extender ?

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7006-Micro-range-extender-for-Model-S" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bladon provides a micro range extender with 6kW electric power but only 15kg in weight.

This can extend Leaf's turtle run for miles & miles :lol:

Of course it also needs a fuel system, a cooling system, an exhaust system, etc.. A lot more complexity, but it does seem small enough that maybe a basket behind the car could hold it.
Too expensive to own, but maybe a rental item to allow long trips in areas without chargers. Stop for lunch and fill up the battery and the belly.

 

[N952JL]

I am happy for all the innovation but I think this will go nowhere. To me it just looks wrong burning fuel behind an EV. For 30k+ I would much rather pull a large battery pack or get by on the existing oem systems.

Everyone has their own reasons for buying an BEV. One of yours appears to be polution. So let's look at how to reduce polution.

Currently it is very expensive to equipt a BEV with the type of range needed to make a BEV main stream. In my opinion, main stream would require a 3 hr range at interstate speeds (70 - 75) followed by a 30 min recharge at a location that can occupy them for 30 mins or so. This is what most american drivers do. When they are not at work, they drive somewhere to relax. Unless they have two cars, they need a vehicle to go back and forth to work, and their weekend escapes. Currently the Leaf doesn't fit the bill.

I just picked up my leaf last week. In one week I've put over 220 miles with no problems. But next Tuesday I have tickets to a special Christmas concert in Atlanta. I have to take the old ICE because Atlanta is 2 hrs north on the interstate. (Atlanta is the nearest town for major shows, as well as air travel). Even with QC every fifty miles, I wouldn't be able to do this trip recharge time enroute would be longer than the drive time. (you don't want to reach Atlanta with an empty battery.)

Now a lot of single people would never buy two vehicles. They only need one. A lot of families can only afford one. So they have to buy a ICE. Unless there was a way to "extend" the range of the BEV for the few times they need the extra range. If mass production can create a micro genset (two or three 6kW totalling 18kW) running on a normal 20lb propane tank which could fit in a receiver (as the size and weight would not need a trailor) for under $10-12k, would I feel open up the market to alot more people.

This volume of sales, would remove the polution from all the work commutes. Because the basic battery would be enough to handle the daily runs. Even if your one way comute is 75 miles, a small 6kW propane fueled micro genset would allow you to recharge at work while the car is parked. Allowing you to have a full charge for the trip home.

The idea is not to lower the polution of a single car, but the polution of all the commuters combined.

 

[edatoakrun]

A major advantage of a lower output (5-10 kWh) range extender, whatever type of engine driving the generator, is the ability to utilize it efficiently over a greater proportion of total duration of the your trip.

Remember your BEV is still going to have to limit total charging to protect your battery, so your car will have to either shut down the generator or decline regenerative braking, whenever the total of these two charge sources becomes too great. And of course, there is no “range–extending” occurring when the generator is not usable.

On highway driving, where the car rarely generates much energy from regen (except when descending long steep grades) it will probably be a very rare event for the car (or the driver) to have to “turn off” the generator with a 5-10 kWh output range extender, and the energy lost to friction braking will be negligible.

The larger output generator you install, the more it’s efficiency (and probably it’s life) will be reduced by increased start/stop cycling.

It will also be bigger, heavier, and more expensive.

As far as the EREV on board charger is concerned, small is beautiful.

 

[N952JL]

I am not thinking about a "range extender" for your normal stop and go driving, around town or interstate communting during rush hr. That's the job of the battery. I'm seeing a "genset pack" that you control when it gets turned on. Let's assume a package made up of 3 of the 6kW micro's powered by a normal BBQ LP tank that would slide into a receiver like a tow hitch. The receiver could even be built to have the electrical connections inside the receiver, so when you mount the "extender" it plugs in without external cables. Inside you have a "mode" switch. This would allow you to turn on each of the three 6kW units seperately. If you are on the freeway cruising at 70, the leaf is using over 20kWh so you could turn on all three suppling 18kWh charging power. Not enough to supply your full needs but enough efficantly use it. If you are in stop and go traffic not using much, but your are down to 10 - 15 miles left on battery charge you can turn on just one. At 6kW it would take two or three hrs run time to fully charge your battery, so your concern about turning on and off reducing it's life time is dimminished.

Of course we don't need to use a "genset" we could use a fuel cell. Advances are being made on that front as well. http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/39203/page1/ But this advance is further down line. The neat thing is that ether one would work. The car would not have to be remade, just it's interface to the genset. The mode switch might not need to control three small fuel cells, but even that might not be a bad idea. :mrgreen:

 

[smkettner]

I am happy for all the innovation but I think this will go nowhere. To me it just looks wrong burning fuel behind an EV. For 30k+ I would much rather pull a large battery pack or get by on the existing oem systems.

. Even if your one way comute is 75 miles, a small 6kW propane fueled micro genset would allow you to recharge at work while the car is parked. Allowing you to have a full charge for the trip home.

A generator running all day to recharge the Leaf is even worse than dragging it behind while driving.
My idea of an EV uses grid power electric only. Otherwise get a Volt or other efficient ICE vehicle.

 

[DaveEV]

My idea of an EV uses grid power electric only. Otherwise get a Volt or other efficient ICE vehicle.

Yeah, but with a Volt you end up dragging a generator around all the time. Look at how much the Volt weighs compared to the LEAF, it's nearly 2 tons. A plug-in generator or range extender is a great idea for when you need it.

 

[edatoakrun]

"smkettner"... get a Volt or other efficient ICE vehicle.

No such thing exists, or ever will, when compared with the well-to-wheels efficiency of a BEV.

And range extending generators will be similarly inefficient, which is why vehicles should be designed to use them only for the use required by the presently undeveloped DC charge infrastructure, and current battery weight/cost considerations.

“BEVs are currently superior for the majority of consumers for the majority of their needs, and will soon largely replace ICEVs (including hybrids) and that BEVs’ market dominance will be constrained mainly by how rapidly the BEV charging infrastructure is established.

But the final stage in the evolution from ICEV to hybrid to BEV, the range-extended EV, in which the ICE is reduced to it’s vestigial state, as a small, cheap generator, intended only to do it’s dirty and inefficient work when absolutely necessary, to reduce the time and frequency of BEV recharge sessions on occasional longer trips is now the missing link in the vehicle market, in this evolutionary path...”

From page 5 of this thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[smkettner]

Oh I understand the benefits. However cost just gets in the way.
I would prefer to have a battery trailer if I spent the money for purchase or rental.

Maybe even public transportation should be considered for long distances. Or just rent a car. Both of these options already exist.

 

[Deleted member 770]

Oh I understand the benefits. However cost just gets in the way.
I would prefer to have a battery trailer if I spent the money for purchase or rental.

I suppose it depends on your use case. Mine would be "vacation road trip", where we'd want to cover 300+ miles a day for multiple days. The problem with a battery trailer in this scenario (even assuming that it would give the vehicle "all day" range) is that only Level 3 charging would be able to recharge car + trailer overnight. And you can imagine what the Level 3 charger owner will be charging ($$-wise) per KWh... :roll:

For me the ideal would be a genset trailer which would produce slightly less than my vehicle is consuming while doing 70 MPH on the interstate, so that I'd arrive at the 300-mile mark with a depleted battery and an almost empty genset fuel tank. Then an overnight charge and a quick refuel trip would have me back on the road for another day.

Indeed, the "fuel cell" concept would be closer to the ideal (less pollution, possibly more efficient), but yes, I think it's many more years away. And yes, cost is a major factor. I haven't won the lottery - yet...

 

[edatoakrun]

Oh I understand the benefits. However cost just gets in the way...

But far costlier options, such as huge capacity battery packs (Tesla) and 70+ kW ICE-equipped PHEVs (GM, Volvo, Fisker) are being put into production.

A significant failure by auto manufactures to produce a likely "winner", in the near-term post-ICEV (conventional) market, IMO.

 

[smkettner]

For 300+ mile days such as our annual 720 mile one day drive to ID I think an ICE or plane is a better option.
Otherwise I am pulling my travel trailer behind the F150 getting 8 mpg Max is about 400 miles per day.

Arriving at 300 miles with a depleted battery still would be too limiting. 20kW would be minimum output for long distance travel IMO.
ingineer's 30kW generator at $30,000 plus conversion costs and profit is just way too much. Should be less to just rent a car.

 

[evnow]

Actually, 6 kWh Would almost double the 2011-12 LEAF's range, to over 150 miles at 55 mph, wouldn't it?

What's so funny about that?

Hmmm ... how can 6kWh double the range of a 21 kwh battery vehicle ? You can get about 20-25 miles extra.

But we are talking about 6 kW power. This is just one bubble (i.e. the middle bubble) on the Leaf. Just imagine driving with just one bubble of power available (infact one bubble is 8 kW). Even on slight inclines you can only "accelerate" to 15 mph. So, on a continuous basis - a 6kW will let you drive @ 25 mph.

To work well on highways, you need a 30kW genset with Leaf.

 

[davewill]

I suppose it depends on your use case. Mine would be "vacation road trip", where we'd want to cover 300+ miles a day for multiple days. The problem with a battery trailer in this scenario (even assuming that it would give the vehicle "all day" range) is that only Level 3 charging would be able to recharge car + trailer overnight. And you can imagine what the Level 3 charger owner will be charging ($$-wise) per KWh... :roll:

Well, I'd expect the trailer to have it's own charger, so you could plug it into a separate L2 and get the job done...or...it might be possible to plug the trailer into a typical 30a public EVSE, have it charge at 3.3kW and support it's own 16a J1772 plug to charge the main pack. There's also the obvious scenarios of swapping the trailer for a fresh one, or leaving it to charge during the day while you do local sightseeing.