Tesla Supercharger Network

[GRA]

So according to GRA's numbers, the Hydrogen stations still cannot support as many hydrogen-power miles as the Superchargers.

As we all know, the Superchargers only have to support part of the "load" of charging EVs. I'm going to guess it's typically 10-15% from what I've read. But even assuming it is much higher, at 25%, the EVs supported by the Superchargers can travel 4x the number of miles as indicated by your calculations. So even though the Superchargers have less throughput in terms of miles/hr worth of energy dispensed, the EVs they support can travel many more miles/day than the FCVs supported by the hydrogen stations.

I'm not sure how you're reading the numbers to arrive at your conclusion, as they show just the opposite, except in the worst case for the Tucson (3,180), and the medium (3,360) and best (3,840) cases for the BEV. Care to elaborate on your methodology?

Simple. I am looking at fleet miles. Your numbers ignore the fact that all FCV miles are powered from a Hydrogen station, yet less than half of EV miles are powered from public quick charging. Your numbers are only true if you look at road trips, and neglect to charge your EV before leaving home.

Oh, okay. The numbers I posted were in reply to Dave's request that I compare throughput of the stations/SCs.

If a city has 30 EVs that drive 1,000 miles/month, you get 1,000 electric miles per day. On average, more than half of those miles are charged from home. Probably on the order of 80-85%. But I made a very conservative assumption that only 75% of the miles were supplied from home. So the public QC stations need to provide 250 miles/day for this group of 30 cars. Let's be even more conservative, call it 300 miles/day, so 10 miles/day per car.

The hydrogen stations need to provide 100% of the miles for FCVs they support. So if you have 30 cars driving 1,000 miles/month, you need to provide 1,000 miles/day for the same 30 cars. Or normalized to 33 miles/day per car.

Now let's look at your numbers:
The best case for hydrogen was 9,360*24h = 224,640 miles per day. This supports 224,640/33 = 6,807 cars.

The worst case for EVs was 2,880*24h = 69,120 miles per day. This supports 2,880/10 = 6,912 cars.

So clearly the worst case for EVs is better than the best case for FCVs. Looking at fleet-wide needs, the EV infrastructure still grew faster than the hydrogen infrastructure.

Gotcha, but then that assumes that H2 station deployment is at the same stage as SC deployment, whereas in fact they're currently at different parts of the curve, with H2 ramping up (slightly), and SCs, at least at the moment in the U.S., tapering off. And of course, all the current retail H2 stations have single dispensers, owing to the limited number of cars they each need to serve.

Assuming that FCEVs cross over to the mainstream (always a big if with any AFV), H2 stations will be built with more dispensers and greater storage, just as gas stations were, to boost capacity/throughput. We have around 110,000 U.S. gas stations now serving the entire LDV fleet of approx. 250 million vehicles for all their miles. There are far fewer gas stations now than there were at their peak (IIRR about 240k) but they are individually much larger, so while density has decreased, capacity and throughput have both gone up. The initial, state-supported phase of H2 station deployment is to provide coverage and acceptable density, rather than needing to maximize capacity/throughput.

 

[GRA]

Glad it works for you. For me, I don't stop every two hours on a road trip (and I sure as hell don't need to be loading up on sugary/salty snacks), it's every four or five hours between meals, or when I reach the destination. Nor do most of my destinations have charging available - FTM, most of them (trailheads) entirely lack electricity. Still, I could make a BEV with 2 hour freeway/highway range in all conditions plus a reserve, and with properly placed quick chargers work for many of my weekend trips. Unfortunately, the places I most like to go are the last ones that will see quick chargers.

We did get some good news recently on TMC, as Tesla is apparently going to put an SC in Groveland, CA en route to Yosemite, a location many of us have been lobbying for over the past two years or so. This will help a lot for those of us going to the high country, but even though Tesla put an SC in Mammoth Lakes, they still need one in Lee Vining to make trips to/from the east side reasonably convenient. Some of us have been lobbying Tesla for years to move up provision of SCs to access major national parks and other outdoor recreational areas, with occasional but still indifferent success so far.

Haha... I do my share of exercise, hikes, and eating right even tho I'm not from CA I do ease up when I'm on vacation. My fitbit hit 90K steps last week.

Here is a cool trip I'm planning with my son. Notice the supercharger locations. They don't have to be AT the hikes.

No, they don't. That's the advantage of SCs, which is why I've been trying for a couple of years to convince Tesla to put SCs in gateway towns like Groveland and Lee Vining, since most national parks lack both adequate/any electric infrastructure outside of the most developed parts of the biggest parks, and any desire to add to it. Lone Pine and Beatty are good examples of gateway SCs, as are Moab and Blanding.

Image: http://i.imgur.com/R0UXvnZ.png

Via: http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/montana/southern-mt-waterfalls-road-trip/

A nice trip, but notice how you're restricted to a limited radius off I-90, and can't easily access Yellowstone or drive through it. I've been advocating for SCs in W. Yellowstone and Gardiner as well as Jackson and/or Moran, plus Cody or somewhere west of it, just to enable easy access to/through Yellowstone from surrounding interstates. I mean, the place gets over 4 million visits a year, and Grand Teton over 4.6 million, and there's still no way to get to either from I-80/I-15/I-25 using SCs, or to do the round trip from I-90. Pocatello, Idaho Falls and somewhere near Jackson are finally supposed to be on the 2016 schedule, but with the big commissioning slowdown so far this year we'll see if that happens.

Similarly, try and get from I-90 to Glacier (never mind getting back) using SCs, and if you're coming from the west be sure to enjoy the extra 28 miles you have to drive from the turn off at St. Regis to the Superior SC and back to St. Regis. For even more fun, enjoy the extra 53 miles imposed on people traveling east bound on I-40 and wanting to visit the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, required by a detour to Flagstaff and over U.S. 180 owing to the lack of an SC in Williams or Ash Fork, AZ, not to mention the need for SCs in the gateway towns of Tusayan and Cameron. Grand Canyon gets around 5.5 million visitors a year.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

End of February summary. Just two U.S. SCs (Slidell, LA; Beatty, NV) commissioned this month, which I think is the lowest monthly total since 2013 or maybe even 2012. In fact, while something of a fluke, California opened more H2 stations (3) in February than Tesla did SCs in the U.S.

perfect example of creating an alternate reality from "facts"

how about numbers on possible thru put comparing the two SC's and the 3 H stations instead?

Sure. The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average or a maximum of 10 fills/hour x 3 = 30 fills/hour, for

265 (Tucson) x 10 x 3 = 7,950 miles (5,300 miles if 2 stations, 20 fills/hr)

312 (Mirai) x 10 x 3 = 9,360 miles of range (6,240 if 2).

If we assume that they only average 6 fills/hour (1 every 10 minutes, or 18 fills/hr) that's

265 (Tucson) x 6 x 3 = 4,770 miles (3,180 if 2, 12 fills/hr).

312 (Mirai) x 6 x 3 = 5,616 miles (3,744 if 2).

At the moment they have no need to handle a high throughput because there aren't that many cars out there yet, so the above is mostly notional.

Beatty and Slidell both have 8 stalls, but 120kW gets split between two stalls of a pair if they're both occupied. Taking the best case (and ignoring the time spent pulling up/connecting etc.) a 30 minute recharge gets a maximum of 60kWh (assuming starting from an empty battery and no taper, which isn't the case; see the actual charge curves for a (P)X90D here: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/capture-png.144431/ or this post of a real world P90D charge: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/is-this-a-normal-amount-of-time-to-charge-on-a-supercharger.66204/ ) for 180 (3.0m/kWh), 210 (3.5m/kWh) or 240 (4.0m/kWh) miles of range x 2/hr/stall x 8 stalls (four un-paired stalls occupied at each site, or 16 fills/hr) =

180 x 2 x 8 = 2,880 miles.

210 x 2 x 8 = 3,360 miles.

240 x 2 x 8 = 3,840 miles.

The FCEV range advantage is somewhat greater than indicated, because their longevity and capacity isn't harmed if they're drained completely empty or completely filled, while the BEV batteries suffer damage from both, so prudence would limit using the full SoC to a much greater extent than for the FCEV.

I am not up on Hydrogen (more than enough other things to waste my time on) so guessing by your statement the supply issues with the stations have been cleared up. read somewhere that one station could not generate enough H to fill cars at full speed and despite having several pumps only 1-2 could be running or the fill time was slowed down considerably?

 

[GRA]

I am not up on Hydrogen (more than enough other things to waste my time on) so guessing by your statement the supply issues with the stations have been cleared up. read somewhere that one station could not generate enough H to fill cars at full speed and despite having several pumps only 1-2 could be running or the fill time was slowed down considerably?

The dem/val stations were never designed for commercial use, and they suffered from numerous problems such as the one you mention above, poor reliability, etc. The lessons learned from them went into the station specs and were incorporated in the improved designs of the equipment for the full retail stations, which are the ones now being built, and the opening of which I'm tracking in this thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21315

If you want to see the (reasonably) current state of affairs, go here: http://cafcp.org/stationmap

and play with the selections on the "Filter By" button.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I am not up on Hydrogen (more than enough other things to waste my time on) so guessing by your statement the supply issues with the stations have been cleared up. read somewhere that one station could not generate enough H to fill cars at full speed and despite having several pumps only 1-2 could be running or the fill time was slowed down considerably?

The dem/val stations were never designed for commercial use, and they suffered from numerous problems such as the one you mention above, poor reliability, etc. The lessons learned from them went into the station specs and were incorporated in the improved designs of the equipment for the full retail stations, which are the ones now being built, and the opening of which I'm tracking in this thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21315

If you want to see the (reasonably) current state of affairs, go here: http://cafcp.org/stationmap

and play with the selections on the "Filter By" button.

well its interesting to me that you claim CA has a capacity to fill "hundreds" of FCV's daily when Toyota stopped sales of its FCV because the existing "72" on the road did not have enough infrastructure to fill up once a week.

 

[GRA]

The dem/val stations were never designed for commercial use, and they suffered from numerous problems such as the one you mention above, poor reliability, etc. The lessons learned from them went into the station specs and were incorporated in the improved designs of the equipment for the full retail stations, which are the ones now being built, and the opening of which I'm tracking in this thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21315

If you want to see the (reasonably) current state of affairs, go here: http://cafcp.org/stationmap

and play with the selections on the "Filter By" button.

well its interesting to me that you claim CA has a capacity to fill "hundreds" of FCV's daily when Toyota stopped sales of its FCV because the existing "72" on the road did not have enough infrastructure to fill up once a week.

Yes they stopped for a while at some dealers owing to the delayed rollout of stations. At the time they did that mid-January, there were still no open stations in the Bay Area (vs. 3 now, with one in commissioning status and another under construction), and IIRR only four or 5 in the L.A. area versus 9 or 10 now (Santa Barbara seems to have opened today or yesterday) with several more in commissioning status. There was no point in selling or leasing the cars in areas where there were no places to fuel them locally, but that's now changed, and I imagine Toyota has since given the go ahead for most if not all the 8 initial dealers to resume sales/leasing. For example, one of the dealers that stopped sales was in Santa Monica - subsequently, stations have opened in both Santa Monica itself and in LA a couple of miles away on Santa Monica Blvd, plus Toyota provided the temporary (350 Bar) fueling trailers at 6 of the dealerships.

Both the number of open stations and the rate of station openings has increased considerably since mid-January, so while they're still well behind the number that was expected to be open by the end of last year, they are finally starting to open at an increasing pace.

 

[GRA]

Terre Haute, IN is open, a needed infill on I-70 between Effingham and Indianapolis for S60s in winter, plus it's not too far from the intersection with U.S. 41/150.

 

[scottf200]

Image: http://i.imgur.com/JNi3ZrR.png

 

[GRA]

Image: http://i.imgur.com/JNi3ZrR.png

You beat me to it :lol: Pearl, a suburb of Jackson, MS, is near the intersection of I-20 and I-55. While it's out by its lonesome at the moment, it does open up a fair area previously not accessible by SCs. Depending on the route you take, it's 162, 173 (all interstate) or 181 miles from the Baton Rouge SC, and 166, 181 or 183 miles (all interstate) from the Slidell SC. It's also 212 miles (I-55) from Memphis and 219 (I-20) from Shreveport, so at least 85s can now get to-from those in some conditions.

OBTW, along with Alaska and Hawaii, that leaves just North Dakota, Nebraska, and Arkansas sans SCs.

 

[scottf200]

From Model 3 reveal. All "models" even base will come with supercharging. It's about "freedom". 215 epa minimum miles. 0-60 under 6 sec.

As well all will have autopilot hardware and autopilot safety features are enabled even on base model.

Image: http://i.imgur.com/Cmv4OcN.png

Image: http://i.imgur.com/GYYXQMI.png

 

[GRA]

End of March, and end of Q1 summary. Tesla commissioned 4 U.S. SCs (Warsaw, NC; Champaign, Il; Terre Haute, IN; Pearl, MS) last month, an uptick from February, but well below March 2015, when 8 were commissioned. At the end of the month, there were 4 SCs under construction, including the 2 in California (Napa, Fremont #2) that have long been stalled waiting for other construction at the sites, plus 17 'permitted' per supercharge.info. Some of the permitted sites have been in that status for up to a year (Crescent City, CA is now at 357 days and counting), so 'permitted' is a not a reliable indicator of near-term construction.

End of Q1, 11 SCs have been commissioned (Jan - 5/Feb - 2/Mar - 4), vs. the Q1 2015 total of 33 (12/13/8). For Tesla to equal last year's commissioning of 102 U.S. SCs, they'd need to average 10.1 SCs/month for the rest of the year.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

From Model 3 reveal. All "models" even base will come with supercharging. It's about "freedom". 215 epa minimum miles. 0-60 under 6 sec.

As well all will have autopilot hardware and autopilot safety features are enabled even on base model.

Image: http://i.imgur.com/Cmv4OcN.png

Image: http://i.imgur.com/GYYXQMI.png

I be willing to bet the price to use the SC's will discourage most of the T3ers

 

[muus]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted. At the Model III reveal Elon said Tesla will double the number of installed superchargers by the end on 2017.

Musk said the supercharger network would double in size by the end of 2017. The number of supercharger stations throughout the world today is 613 with 3,628 individual chargers, so that will grow to more than 1,200 stations and 7,000 chargers throughout North America, Europe and the Asia-Pacific regions.

http://mashable.com/2016/04/01/tesla-supercharger-expansion/

 

[Zythryn]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted. At the Model III reveal Elon said Tesla will double the number of installed superchargers by the end on 2017.

Musk said the supercharger network would double in size by the end of 2017. The number of supercharger stations throughout the world today is 613 with 3,628 individual chargers, so that will grow to more than 1,200 stations and 7,000 chargers throughout North America, Europe and the Asia-Pacific regions.

http://mashable.com/2016/04/01/tesla-supercharger-expansion/

This thread focuses mainly on what SCs have been built.

Tesla has a habit of setting their goals very high. Unfortunately, with SCs, they have consistently missed those goals.

I hope they can reach this latest goal, but until I see the SCs, I'm not going to count on it.

 

[scottf200]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted. At the Model III reveal Elon said Tesla will double the number of installed superchargers by the end on 2017.

Musk said the supercharger network would double in size by the end of 2017. The number of supercharger stations throughout the world today is 613 with 3,628 individual chargers, so that will grow to more than 1,200 stations and 7,000 chargers throughout North America, Europe and the Asia-Pacific regions.

http://mashable.com/2016/04/01/tesla-supercharger-expansion/

From like 5 post above... see graphics.

From Model 3 reveal. All "models" even base will come with supercharging. It's about "freedom". 215 epa minimum miles. 0-60 under 6 sec.

As well all will have autopilot hardware and autopilot safety features are enabled even on base model.

Image: http://i.imgur.com/Cmv4OcN.png

Image: http://i.imgur.com/GYYXQMI.png

 

[palmermd]

From Model 3 reveal. All "models" even base will come with supercharging. It's about "freedom". 215 epa minimum miles. 0-60 under 6 sec.

As well all will have autopilot hardware and autopilot safety features are enabled even on base model.

Careful how you say this. I see a lot of folks misunderstanding this. All cars will have the autopilot hardware, and the vehicle safety features that need this hardware are included in the base model, but autopilot itself is not included. Also with regard to Supercharging, he said all base model cars will be supercharging capable. This does not mean the use is included or it is free. It may be like the Model S and there is a one time fee to enable it, or they may opt for another usage fee. We just do not know yet.

Here is a link to their Model 3 page that shows their list of features.

https://www.teslamotors.com/model3

 

[redLEAF]

From Model 3 reveal. All "models" even base will come with supercharging. It's about "freedom". 215 epa minimum miles. 0-60 under 6 sec.

As well all will have autopilot hardware and autopilot safety features are enabled even on base model.

Careful how you say this. I see a lot of folks misunderstanding this. All cars will have the autopilot hardware, and the vehicle safety features that need this hardware are included in the base model, but autopilot itself is not included. Also with regard to Supercharging, he said all base model cars will be supercharging capable. This does not mean the use is included or it is free. It may be like the Model S and there is a one time fee to enable it, or they may opt for another usage fee. We just do not know yet.

Here is a link to their Model 3 page that shows their list of features.

https://www.teslamotors.com/model3

Back in 2012; Tesla typically charged $2,000 to add unlimited supercharging to their smaller battery (60 series) Model S sedans; this link shows how this was phrased as a pro-active response to a recent (then) purchaser as they reduced it to $1,000. Would think that the costs may have changed with how quickly this tech changes; and of course most know that Tesla dropped this model as more opted for the bigger battery = more range:

https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/supercharging-hidden-charge-60-kwh-ss

The explanation just arrived. Here it is:

You are receiving this email because you have placed an order for Model S and opted for our 60 kWh battery. We are contacting you today to see if Supercharging is an option you would like to enable on your car.

Earlier this week, we announced details surrounding our Supercharger network. Superchargers are designed to give Model S half a charge in about half an hour, making road trips in an electric vehicle a practical reality.

Superchargers are being placed along well-travelled routes across North America and, while we only have six locations today, we plan to have over a hundred locations by 2015.

Today, we are announcing pricing for the option that enables Model S to access the Supercharger network. This option will cost $2,000 on Model S equipped with our 60 kWh battery and includes unlimited, free Supercharging for the lifetime of your Model S. Supercharging is included as standard equipment on cars equipped with our 85 kWh battery.

Supercharger access is made up of three components: hardware, software and the vehicle interface. The cost to enable Supercharging on cars equipped with a 60 kWh battery is $2,000. Hardware represents approximately $1000 of the cost, while software configuration, enabling and testing the interface represents another $1000.

Since you are an early reservation holder and booked your 60 kWh Model S before complete Supercharging information was available, we planned ahead to build your Model S with Supercharger hardware at no additional cost to you. If you would now like to enable access to the Supercharger network, we still need to configure the software, and enable and test the interface. There will be a $1000 charge to complete this work if you would like to enable access to the Supercharger network. After this work is complete, you will then have unlimited free access to the network for the lifetime of your Model S (this even extends to all future owners of the car).

Supercharger hardware and software must be calibrated and tested during installation, so it must be done during production of your car. We cannot add Supercharging to your car after you take delivery.

Given the timing of your car, we need to know in the next 10 days if you would like to have Supercharger access added to your Model S for $1,000. This is half of what those who have not yet configured will pay.

No matter what you decide, your Model S delivery will not be delayed.


I'm sure as this is a significant selling feature that if added on (i.e., not included in the base purchase price); most will take it and it won't be excessively expensive; they also said (in'12) that they would have 100 locations and most would say they've done pretty well ... who knows how many by the time the Model 3 is out

 

[palmermd]

I understand the history of Supercharging on the Model S....see the very first post in this thread. Like I said in my post, we just do not know yet how they will handle this. They worded it such that they left open a lot of options. We won't likely know until just before the actual orders get taken in late 2017.

 

[scottf200]

From Model 3 reveal. All "models" even base will come with supercharging. It's about "freedom". 215 epa minimum miles. 0-60 under 6 sec.

As well all will have autopilot hardware and autopilot safety features are enabled even on base model.

Careful how you say this. I see a lot of folks misunderstanding this. All cars will have the autopilot hardware, and the vehicle safety features that need this hardware are included in the base model, but autopilot itself is not included. Also with regard to Supercharging, he said all base model cars will be supercharging capable. This does not mean the use is included or it is free. It may be like the Model S and there is a one time fee to enable it, or they may opt for another usage fee. We just do not know yet.

Here is a link to their Model 3 page that shows their list of features.

https://www.teslamotors.com/model3

I totally understand what you are saying. Those were comments I typed while the event just finished. Things have been clarified since then.

 

[scottf200]

Image: http://i.imgur.com/LADxT4n.png