Tesla Supercharger Network

[dgpcolorado]

At the Moab Supercharger on Sunday:

 

[finman100]

OMG, that is too funny. Really? "more H2 stations opened during this exact period in time than Tesla Superchargers"? Well, when that's the best you can do, might as well spin it and spin it hard...just sad. but at least laughable. Please let us all know when a FCV can make it to the Supercharger pictured in Moab. I fear it will only be on a flatbed truck. Same as the hydrogen being trucked around to make this fool cell thing...er..."work".

 

[GRA]

End of February summary. Just two U.S. SCs (Slidell, LA; Beatty, NV) commissioned this month, which I think is the lowest monthly total since 2013 or maybe even 2012. In fact, while something of a fluke, California opened more H2 stations (3) in February than Tesla did SCs in the U.S.

perfect example of creating an alternate reality from "facts"

how about numbers on possible thru put comparing the two SC's and the 3 H stations instead?

Sure. The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average or a maximum of 10 fills/hour x 3 = 30 fills/hour, for

265 (Tucson) x 10 x 3 = 7,950 miles (5,300 miles if 2 stations, 20 fills/hr)

312 (Mirai) x 10 x 3 = 9,360 miles of range (6,240 if 2).

If we assume that they only average 6 fills/hour (1 every 10 minutes, or 18 fills/hr) that's

265 (Tucson) x 6 x 3 = 4,770 miles (3,180 if 2, 12 fills/hr).

312 (Mirai) x 6 x 3 = 5,616 miles (3,744 if 2).

At the moment they have no need to handle a high throughput because there aren't that many cars out there yet, so the above is mostly notional.

Beatty and Slidell both have 8 stalls, but 120kW gets split between two stalls of a pair if they're both occupied. Taking the best case (and ignoring the time spent pulling up/connecting etc.) a 30 minute recharge gets a maximum of 60kWh (assuming starting from an empty battery and no taper, which isn't the case; see the actual charge curves for a (P)X90D here: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/capture-png.144431/ or this post of a real world P90D charge: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/is-this-a-normal-amount-of-time-to-charge-on-a-supercharger.66204/ ) for 180 (3.0m/kWh), 210 (3.5m/kWh) or 240 (4.0m/kWh) miles of range x 2/hr/stall x 8 stalls (four un-paired stalls occupied at each site, or 16 fills/hr) =

180 x 2 x 8 = 2,880 miles.

210 x 2 x 8 = 3,360 miles.

240 x 2 x 8 = 3,840 miles.

The FCEV range advantage is somewhat greater than indicated, because their longevity and capacity isn't harmed if they're drained completely empty or completely filled, while the BEV batteries suffer damage from both, so prudence would limit using the full SoC to a much greater extent than for the FCEV.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

So according to GRA's numbers, the Hydrogen stations still cannot support as many hydrogen-power miles as the Superchargers.

As we all know, the Superchargers only have to support part of the "load" of charging EVs. I'm going to guess it's typically 10-15% from what I've read. But even assuming it is much higher, at 25%, the EVs supported by the Superchargers can travel 4x the number of miles as indicated by your calculations. So even though the Superchargers have less throughput in terms of miles/hr worth of energy dispensed, the EVs they support can travel many more miles/day than the FCVs supported by the hydrogen stations.

 

[lorenfb]

The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average

That's the key point which limits the adoption rate of BEVs in the long term, which most seem to ignore!

 

[scottf200]

Sure. The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average or a maximum of 10 fills/hour x 3 = 30 fills/hour, for ...

I took my first supercharger enabled trip just over a week ago. Stopped twice on the way to our destination. Built-in trip planner tells you how long you need to stay at the supercharger with some buffer (15%-20%) to get to the next one.

1st stop was near restaurants and large grocery store with its associated gas station/convenience store. We use the restrooms and got snacks. Chatted with another owner for 5-10 minutes and then let. Didn't seem much different than my previous ICE trip.

2nd stop was near more restaurants and gas station/convenience store. We ate lunch. By the time we were done we filled up way beyond what we needed to get to our final destination.

Could have charged overnight but there was a supercharger in the area so we ate dinner out. There were several restaurants near the supercharger so we ate at one.

On the way home it was similar trip and seemed just as fast as driving the ICE since we were doing things at the supercharging stops anyway!

 

[scottf200]

Image: http://i.imgur.com/mTnB7hl.png

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average

That's the key point which limits the adoption rate of BEVs in the long term, which most seem to ignore!

We ignore it because once you have lived with an EV, you know it is irrelevant. However, that is not to say that it isn't important for those who don't know better, and they are the ones who will need convincing in the first place.

 

[Zythryn]

The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average

That's the key point which limits the adoption rate of BEVs in the long term, which most seem to ignore!

Ignore? No.
Dismiss after examination? Yes.

Most realize that waking up with a full 'tank' every day is a huge convenience and one that wins out for anyone with a reliable place to charge (either at home or work).

However, not everyone has such a place, so other options are good.

The number of people a 200 mile BEV doesn't work for is a lot lower than many seem to think.

 

[GRA]

The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average

That's the key point which limits the adoption rate of BEVs in the long term, which most seem to ignore!

Ignore? No.
Dismiss after examination? Yes.

Most realize that waking up with a full 'tank' every day is a huge convenience and one that wins out for anyone with a reliable place to charge (either at home or work).

However, not everyone has such a place, so other options are good.

The number of people a 200 mile BEV doesn't work for is a lot lower than many seem to think.

In the U.S., which has the highest % (56%) of households living in detached single family homes with available, dedicated parking with electricity for charging, that's true. But for the 44% here (including me) who don't have that option, plus the far higher proportion who can't do so in the rest of the world including those countries (China etc.) which will see the largest increase in car ownership/usage over the next decades, divorcing fueling from living/working locations isn't an inconvenience, it's an advantage, when that fueling is rapid. That will be the case until such time as public/private charging infrastructure is ubiquitous, and equal or lower cost than fossil fuels (H2 and all other alternative fuels must also meet those requirements to succeed). As you say, having options is good.

 

[GRA]

So according to GRA's numbers, the Hydrogen stations still cannot support as many hydrogen-power miles as the Superchargers.

As we all know, the Superchargers only have to support part of the "load" of charging EVs. I'm going to guess it's typically 10-15% from what I've read. But even assuming it is much higher, at 25%, the EVs supported by the Superchargers can travel 4x the number of miles as indicated by your calculations. So even though the Superchargers have less throughput in terms of miles/hr worth of energy dispensed, the EVs they support can travel many more miles/day than the FCVs supported by the hydrogen stations.

I'm not sure how you're reading the numbers to arrive at your conclusion, as they show just the opposite, except in the worst case for the Tucson (3,180), and the medium (3,360) and best (3,840) cases for the BEV. Care to elaborate on your methodology?

 

[GRA]

Champaign, Il is open, providing a useful link on I-57 and I-72/74. Warsaw, NC opened a week or so back, opening up the SE parts of NC.

 

[GRA]

Sure. The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average or a maximum of 10 fills/hour x 3 = 30 fills/hour, for ...

I took my first supercharger enabled trip just over a week ago. Stopped twice on the way to our destination. Built-in trip planner tells you how long you need to stay at the supercharger with some buffer (15%-20%) to get to the next one.

1st stop was near restaurants and large grocery store with its associated gas station/convenience store. We use the restrooms and got snacks. Chatted with another owner for 5-10 minutes and then let. Didn't seem much different than my previous ICE trip.

2nd stop was near more restaurants and gas station/convenience store. We ate lunch. By the time we were done we filled up way beyond what we needed to get to our final destination.

Could have charged overnight but there was a supercharger in the area so we ate dinner out. There were several restaurants near the supercharger so we ate at one.

On the way home it was similar trip and seemed just as fast as driving the ICE since we were doing things at the supercharging stops anyway!

Glad it works for you. For me, I don't stop every two hours on a road trip (and I sure as hell don't need to be loading up on sugary/salty snacks), it's every four or five hours between meals, or when I reach the destination. Nor do most of my destinations have charging available - FTM, most of them (trailheads) entirely lack electricity. Still, I could make a BEV with 2 hour freeway/highway range in all conditions plus a reserve, and with properly placed quick chargers work for many of my weekend trips. Unfortunately, the places I most like to go are the last ones that will see quick chargers.

We did get some good news recently on TMC, as Tesla is apparently going to put an SC in Groveland, CA en route to Yosemite, a location many of us have been lobbying for over the past two years or so. This will help a lot for those of us going to the high country, but even though Tesla put an SC in Mammoth Lakes, they still need one in Lee Vining to make trips to/from the east side reasonably convenient. Some of us have been lobbying Tesla for years to move up provision of SCs to access major national parks and other outdoor recreational areas, with occasional but still indifferent success so far.

 

[GRA]

Small correction to GRA's list, there are 6 stalls in Kingston Ontario Canada.

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/findus/location/supercharger/kingstononsupercharger

Thanks, I've corrected it. I don't know how that '2' got in there, as the smallest SC that Tesla's built has 3 stalls (it was apparently supposed to be '6' originally, but the property owner changed their mind), and I should have noticed the anomaly way back when.

 

[lorenfb]

Most realize that waking up with a full 'tank' every day is a huge convenience and one that wins out for anyone with a reliable place to charge (either at home or work).

However, not everyone has such a place, so other options are good.

Yes, as GRA mentioned, another problem that limits the adoption rate, i.e. a place where one wakes-up and
'finds' a fully charged BEV.

 

[Zythryn]

Most realize that waking up with a full 'tank' every day is a huge convenience and one that wins out for anyone with a reliable place to charge (either at home or work).

However, not everyone has such a place, so other options are good.

Yes, as GRA mentioned, another problem that limits the adoption rate, i.e. a place where one wakes-up and
'finds' a fully charged BEV.

Slows, not limits.

Listen, even if it were a hard cap at 45< we aren't anywhere near 45% market penetration yet.

If we reach 25% market penetration and don't have solutions for apartment dwellers, then I'll start worrying.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

So according to GRA's numbers, the Hydrogen stations still cannot support as many hydrogen-power miles as the Superchargers.

As we all know, the Superchargers only have to support part of the "load" of charging EVs. I'm going to guess it's typically 10-15% from what I've read. But even assuming it is much higher, at 25%, the EVs supported by the Superchargers can travel 4x the number of miles as indicated by your calculations. So even though the Superchargers have less throughput in terms of miles/hr worth of energy dispensed, the EVs they support can travel many more miles/day than the FCVs supported by the hydrogen stations.

I'm not sure how you're reading the numbers to arrive at your conclusion, as they show just the opposite, except in the worst case for the Tucson (3,180), and the medium (3,360) and best (3,840) cases for the BEV. Care to elaborate on your methodology?

Simple. I am looking at fleet miles. Your numbers ignore the fact that all FCV miles are powered from a Hydrogen station, yet less than half of EV miles are powered from public quick charging. Your numbers are only true if you look at road trips, and neglect to charge your EV before leaving home.

If a city has 30 EVs that drive 1,000 miles/month, you get 1,000 electric miles per day. On average, more than half of those miles are charged from home. Probably on the order of 80-85%. But I made a very conservative assumption that only 75% of the miles were supplied from home. So the public QC stations need to provide 250 miles/day for this group of 30 cars. Let's be even more conservative, call it 300 miles/day, so 10 miles/day per car.

The hydrogen stations need to provide 100% of the miles for FCVs they support. So if you have 30 cars driving 1,000 miles/month, you need to provide 1,000 miles/day for the same 30 cars. Or normalized to 33 miles/day per car.

Now let's look at your numbers:
The best case for hydrogen was 9,360*24h = 224,640 miles per day. This supports 224,640/33 = 6,807 cars.

The worst case for EVs was 2,880*24h = 69,120 miles per day. This supports 2,880/10 = 6,912 cars.

So clearly the worst case for EVs is better than the best case for FCVs. Looking at fleet-wide needs, the EV infrastructure still grew faster than the hydrogen infrastructure.

 

[lorenfb]

Your numbers are only true if you look at road trips, and neglect to charge your EV before leaving home.

Right, GRA has a valid point, i.e. road trips AND home charging are issues for most. Again, many who presently
drive BEVs are myopic to those two key issues that potential buyers find as negatives. We early adopters tend
to discount negative issues of a new product concept, which is not the case for the typical consumer.

 

[scottf200]

Sure. The 3 H2 stations can do a complete fill in 3-5 minutes, so allowing for some leeway to pull up, connect, pay, disconnect and leave let's call it six minutes average or a maximum of 10 fills/hour x 3 = 30 fills/hour, for ...

I took my first supercharger enabled trip just over a week ago. Stopped twice on the way to our destination. Built-in trip planner tells you how long you need to stay at the supercharger with some buffer (15%-20%) to get to the next one.

1st stop was near restaurants and large grocery store with its associated gas station/convenience store. We use the restrooms and got snacks. Chatted with another owner for 5-10 minutes and then let. Didn't seem much different than my previous ICE trip.

2nd stop was near more restaurants and gas station/convenience store. We ate lunch. By the time we were done we filled up way beyond what we needed to get to our final destination.

Could have charged overnight but there was a supercharger in the area so we ate dinner out. There were several restaurants near the supercharger so we ate at one.

On the way home it was similar trip and seemed just as fast as driving the ICE since we were doing things at the supercharging stops anyway!

Glad it works for you. For me, I don't stop every two hours on a road trip (and I sure as hell don't need to be loading up on sugary/salty snacks), it's every four or five hours between meals, or when I reach the destination. Nor do most of my destinations have charging available - FTM, most of them (trailheads) entirely lack electricity. Still, I could make a BEV with 2 hour freeway/highway range in all conditions plus a reserve, and with properly placed quick chargers work for many of my weekend trips. Unfortunately, the places I most like to go are the last ones that will see quick chargers.

We did get some good news recently on TMC, as Tesla is apparently going to put an SC in Groveland, CA en route to Yosemite, a location many of us have been lobbying for over the past two years or so. This will help a lot for those of us going to the high country, but even though Tesla put an SC in Mammoth Lakes, they still need one in Lee Vining to make trips to/from the east side reasonably convenient. Some of us have been lobbying Tesla for years to move up provision of SCs to access major national parks and other outdoor recreational areas, with occasional but still indifferent success so far.

Haha... I do my share of exercise, hikes, and eating right even tho I'm not from CA I do ease up when I'm on vacation. My fitbit hit 90K steps last week.

Here is a cool trip I'm planning with my son. Notice the supercharger locations. They don't have to be AT the hikes.

Image: http://i.imgur.com/R0UXvnZ.png

Via: http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/montana/southern-mt-waterfalls-road-trip/

 

[finman100]

That's so awesome scottf200! Enjoy the gasoline-free trips. I might have to request some posted pics...