So, owners what range are you getting ?

[LEAFfan]

Yes, I figured the testing I did of the full range of charge from 100% to VLBW or turtle would be the most useful data. Ironically as Yogi stated, the testing may have made the pack even worse. I wish I had a gidometer when the car was brand new, as I really believe the car was down from the day I left the dealership. If I had complained about it the first week, perhaps they would have done something. Unfortunately it took this long to try and log extensive range data. I have my bluetooth OBD adapter on rush order...will see what readings I get in a few days.

Now I know after charging to 80%, the first two bars might go kind of quickly. I lost the first two SOC bars before traveling 3.3 miles. But tonight I got in the car and noticed with only 13.1 miles since charging it yesterday, I was down 4 bars. (10-4 bars=6 bars showing)

Now, I believe 4 bars :lol: is conservatively about 6kw. So with my 3.8mi/kWh economy up to that point..does 13.1 miles even seem plausible? If there is a major capacity problem in my 6month/4500 mile LEAF, will there be a way to convince Nissan to fix it?

FORGET THE FUEL BARS !!!!

The only data we can work with with moderate accuracy is 100% or 80% charge to LBW or VLB or Turtle.

The widest extremes (100% to Turtle) are best. We need the battery temperature and the dash economy. Additional super helpful data is a Gidmeter value and recharge consumed kWh.

No, Nissan isn't going to do anything about your battery. You seem stuck in a spinning tea cup at Disneyland with repeatedly presenting the same type of data over an over.

Your battery is down on capacity; that seems obvious. I estimate 10%-20% based on your numerous previous posts. Nissan will do absolutely nothing, and frankly, this isn't that unusual. Yes, it sucks, but that's where you're at.

Rush? So instead of a slow boat from China, you get a speed boat?

 

[ELROY]

5/1/2013
Started with 80% charge again.
Didn't drive to VLBW this time...but went 7.3 miles past LBW.
Similar to some of the other comparable test sessions. So probably very close to VLBW.
3.9 Economy...Hit LBW at 46.0 miles, Ended test at 53.3 miles, right before VLBW

No bars were showing.....4 miles flashing.

Got my bluetooth OBD adapter to chart my battery numbers. Worked like a charm the first time I plugged it in!

This is at the end of the test. However, did many screen shots, and even a few miles before, the chart still seemed to have about the same shape, with a few bars around #50 being the highest voltage, and #17/18/21/37 being the lowest? Don't know if a .055v min-max difference is normal. However, just a couple miles before the max diff was .027 volts. Was suprised by the 96.68% capacity. Not as bad as I thought. Being down around 3.4% pretty normal for 5 months, 4583 miles?

 

[TonyWilliams]

... .055v min-max difference is normal. However, just a couple miles before the max diff was .027 volts. Was suprised by the 96.68% capacity. Not as bad as I thought. Being down around 3.4% pretty normal for 5 months, 4583 miles?

When is the last time you charged the car to 100% and let it sit (while plugged in) for at least 4 hours? If I recall, 50mV is max delta.

 

[DaveEV]

5/1/2013, Started with 80% charge again
3.9 Economy...Hit LBW at 46.0 miles, Ended test at 53.3 miles, right before VLBW

Today I did 80%, 4.5 mi/kWh, LBW at ~48 mi, ended test at 55.4 mi / 27 gid - right before VLBW. ELM327 LEAF Battery plot here.

You: ~11.8 kWh from 80% -> LBW and ~13.7 kWh to ~VLBW
Me : ~10.7 kWh from 80% -> LBW and ~12.3 kWh to ~VLBW (I actually drained my car to VLBW in the garage later, dropped efficiency to 4.3 mi/kWh for a calculated 12.9 kWh from 80%->VLBW)

From LBW -> turtle all cars should be identical - it's above that the miles will change.

So adding 3.9 kWh for 0-LBW to the numbers above gets you 15.7 kWh and me 14.6 kWh from 80-0% - your car has about 8% more capacity than mine using that calculation, which matches up with the capacity that each car thinks it has (64.06 Ah vs 59.40 Ah).

Of course, capacity loss to LBW looks slightly worse than the actual capacity loss since capacity from LBW and below is fixed - If you compare 80%-LBW usable on our cars, you have a little more than 8% more usable capacity there - you have 10% more usable (10.7 * 1.1 = 11.8).

Anyway, to me your car looks normal. But then again I've always felt that my car was down a bit on actual capacity, too.

If I recall, 50mV is max delta.

Not sure, but all the VLBW plots I've seen seem to have at least 50 mV - which would be expected on a top-balanced battery pack. That's where all the differences in capacity will show up as pack voltage falls off a cliff there.

Some average cell-pair voltages pulled from TickTock's charge:
~49 GID: ~3.76V
~24 GID: ~3.62V
~12 GID: ~3.44V
~7 GID: ~3.22V

The slope between LBW and VLBW is about 16 mV / GID - so a cell that is just 4/96 GIDs weaker than the rest will exceed 50 mV. From VLBW to Turtle that increases to about 24 mV / GID.

 

[ELROY]

Very interesting data. This will be great as we see more comparisons. I guess there is no need for me to complain to Nissan about a faulty battery pack. You can see how the battery pack looks after the 80% charge again.

Also..what is the best method for cell balancing. Just drive to LBW? Then charge to 80%L2...then finish off with L1 till 100%. Let it sit 4hrs? Try and reinitiate charging again? Then drive it soon after to prevent from sitting at that high SOC?

But the next question is...with my cell to cell max/min variation of .014 volts (at 80% charge), does my pack even look out of balanced? Or are the necessary readings only valid at 100% charge? (or near empty?)

Also..I wonder if the AH and battery capacity readouts are pretty accurate or just some pre calculated algorithm based on age..mileage, and driving techniques?

Interestingly enough...my time to complete charge back to 80%the was 4hrs and 31 minutes as usual.
So approx 4.5hrs x 3.3kw back into the battery would be 14.85kWh. And 14.85hr x 3.9mi/kWh=57.9 miles. So considering charge taper, etc...this sounds about right.

So the question I have is...14.80kWh capacity about right for an 80% charge to just about VLBW?
Only thing that doesn't make sense to me is about those forum members that are getting over 50-60 miles on 80% charge, just going to LBW, and averaging only 4.0 mi/kWh.

Looking at my screen shot...the 79.60% looks pretty close to 80%. Don't know what others are getting? The min-max voltage difference dropped down to .014 volts. I guess the chart looks to be within normal specs?

Also, what is the expected battery pack deterioration in 1yr? ~10000 miles. 5%? 10%? Assuming mild Southern California climate? I'm already down 3.28% in 5 months/4500 miles. Not great, but probably not horrible either. And is how is the deterioration curve shaped. Is it usually accelerated deterioration in the first 6 months perhaps, compared to the next 6 months?

5/1/2013, Started with 80% charge again
3.9 Economy...Hit LBW at 46.0 miles, Ended test at 53.3 miles, right before VLBW

Today I did 80%, 4.5 mi/kWh, LBW at ~48 mi, ended test at 55.4 mi / 27 gid - right before VLBW. ELM327 LEAF Battery plot here.

You: ~11.8 kWh from 80% -> LBW and ~13.7 kWh to ~VLBW
Me : ~10.7 kWh from 80% -> LBW and ~12.3 kWh to ~VLBW (I actually drained my car to VLBW in the garage later, dropped efficiency to 4.3 mi/kWh for a calculated 12.9 kWh from 80%->VLBW)

From LBW -> turtle all cars should be identical - it's above that the miles will change.

So adding 3.9 kWh for 0-LBW to the numbers above gets you 15.7 kWh and me 14.6 kWh from 80-0% - your car has about 8% more capacity than mine using that calculation, which matches up with the capacity that each car thinks it has (64.06 Ah vs 59.40 Ah).

Of course, capacity loss to LBW looks slightly worse than the actual capacity loss since capacity from LBW and below is fixed - If you compare 80%-LBW usable on our cars, you have a little more than 8% more usable capacity there - you have 10% more usable (10.7 * 1.1 = 11.8).

Anyway, to me your car looks normal. But then again I've always felt that my car was down a bit on actual capacity, too.

If I recall, 50mV is max delta.

Not sure, but all the VLBW plots I've seen seem to have at least 50 mV - which would be expected on a top-balanced battery pack. That's where all the differences in capacity will show up as pack voltage falls off a cliff there.

Some average cell-pair voltages pulled from TickTock's charge:
~49 GID: ~3.76V
~24 GID: ~3.62V
~12 GID: ~3.44V
~7 GID: ~3.22V

The slope between LBW and VLBW is about 16 mV / GID - so a cell that is just 4/96 GIDs weaker than the rest will exceed 50 mV. From VLBW to Turtle that increases to about 24 mV / GID.

 

[DaveEV]

Also..what is the best method for cell balancing. Just drive to LBW? Then charge to 80%L2...then finish off with L1 till 100%. Let it sit 4hrs? Try and reinitiate charging again? Then drive it soon after to prevent from sitting at that high SOC?

If your goal is to get the pack nice and balanced, I would L1 charge from somewhere at or below 80% and then let it sit for 4 hours. Check pack balance and repeat if necessary. If you are concerned about causing extra capacity loss, do this when the pack is cool. I'd aim for less than 65F which is tough to do in Southern California. Letting the car sit outside may help as even an uninsulated garage will stay much warmer than outside.

But the next question is...with my cell to cell max/min variation of .014 volts (at 80% charge), does my pack even look out of balanced? Or are the necessary readings only valid at 100% charge? (or near empty?)

It's harder to tell pack balance from LBW to 80% as the voltage curve is fairly flat. You have to get near VLBW on the low end and close to 100% on the high end to see big voltage swings. FWIW, my car this morning had a 25mV difference between max/min on a 80% charge, but that appears mostly because of two outliers, one on the low side (CP24) and one on the high side (CP96).

Also..I wonder if the AH and battery capacity readouts are pretty accurate or just some pre calculated algorithm based on age..mileage, and driving techniques?

I don't think anyone knows for sure except for Nissan.

So the question I have is...14.80kWh capacity about right for an 80% charge to just about VLBW?

My calculations say yes.

Only thing that doesn't make sense to me is about those forum members that are getting over 50-60 miles on 80% charge, just going to LBW, and averaging only 4.0 mi/kWh.

Not sure. Would love to see some CP voltage charts of those cars.

Looking at my screen shot...the 79.60% looks pretty close to 80%. Don't know what others are getting? The min-max voltage difference dropped down to .014 volts. I guess the chart looks to be within normal specs?

Looks normal. Car must have sat a bit after charging, usually when the car stops it will read even closer to 80% SOC.

Also, what is the expected battery pack deterioration in 1yr? ~10000 miles. 5%? 10%? Assuming mild Southern California climate? I'm already down 3.28% in 5 months/4500 miles. Not great, but probably not horrible either. And is how is the deterioration curve shaped. Is it usually accelerated deterioration in the first 6 months perhaps, compared to the next 6 months?

Go look at the wonder documentation we have on the wiki: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tl;dr; version: Capacity loss is fastest when the car is new, then gradually slows down. Most of southern California will be around the Blue/nom line below.

 

[ELROY]

Also..what is the best method for cell balancing. Just drive to LBW? Then charge to 80%L2...then finish off with L1 till 100%. Let it sit 4hrs? Try and reinitiate charging again? Then drive it soon after to prevent from sitting at that high SOC?

If your goal is to get the pack nice and balanced, I would L1 charge from somewhere at or below 80% and then let it sit for 4 hours. Check pack balance and repeat if necessary. If you are concerned about causing extra capacity loss, do this when the pack is cool. I'd aim for less than 65F which is tough to do in Southern California. Letting the car sit outside may help as even an uninsulated garage will stay much warmer than outside.

But the next question is...with my cell to cell max/min variation of .014 volts (at 80% charge), does my pack even look out of balanced? Or are the necessary readings only valid at 100% charge? (or near empty?)

It's harder to tell pack balance from LBW to 80% as the voltage curve is fairly flat. You have to get near VLBW on the low end and close to 100% on the high end to see big voltage swings. FWIW, my car this morning had a 25mV difference between max/min on a 80% charge, but that appears mostly because of two outliers, one on the low side (CP24) and one on the high side (CP96).

Also..I wonder if the AH and battery capacity readouts are pretty accurate or just some pre calculated algorithm based on age..mileage, and driving techniques?

I don't think anyone knows for sure except for Nissan.

So the question I have is...14.80kWh capacity about right for an 80% charge to just about VLBW?

My calculations say yes.

Only thing that doesn't make sense to me is about those forum members that are getting over 50-60 miles on 80% charge, just going to LBW, and averaging only 4.0 mi/kWh.

Not sure. Would love to see some CP voltage charts of those cars.

Looking at my screen shot...the 79.60% looks pretty close to 80%. Don't know what others are getting? The min-max voltage difference dropped down to .014 volts. I guess the chart looks to be within normal specs?

Looks normal. Car must have sat a bit after charging, usually when the car stops it will read even closer to 80% SOC.

Also, what is the expected battery pack deterioration in 1yr? ~10000 miles. 5%? 10%? Assuming mild Southern California climate? I'm already down 3.28% in 5 months/4500 miles. Not great, but probably not horrible either. And is how is the deterioration curve shaped. Is it usually accelerated deterioration in the first 6 months perhaps, compared to the next 6 months?

Go look at the wonder documentation we have on the wiki: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tl;dr; version: Capacity loss is fastest when the car is new, then gradually slows down. Most of southern California will be around the Blue/nom line below.

Great info!

Yes, the charging stopped at 4:30am, and I drove it away 2hrs 15minutes later. So perhaps in a couple hrs the SOC could fall from 80% to 79.6%.

Also glad the battery back deterioration may level off during my next 6 months.

Temps when I charge are usually 58-63F or so.

 

[rubear]

Year model: 2013

I live about 800' above my normal commute, so I would never charge to 100% as I would not be able to capture the downhill energy. I live in Sequin, WA where temperatures are mild. (Fortunately for battery life).

Efficiency: when I drive, just 10 miles, down the hill to town, back up to my home: 4.8 M/kWh.
I am impressed with this , given that the above drive that the drive is 800' down, then 800' back up.

My best is 5.2 M/kWh, 60 miles, average speed 45, included the 800', 4 mile descent/ascent to my home.

I did charge to approximately 90% once for a longer drive. My wife was driving and she only got 4.5 M/kWh.
She drove 83 miles at 55 MPH for 50 miles, balance mixed city/rural. Arrived home with 5 miles available.

BTW, I have purchased a 14.4 kW Clipper Creek charger and will have it available, free, at my office in Sequim, WA in a few weeks.

I love this car, but would have opted for something with battery thermal control if I lived in a hot climate.

Robert

 

[wilsonfey]

We have our new Leaf as of 1 week. It has 286 miles on it. Two days ago we did a trip and the range started out saying we had 111 miles. We drove it down to about 13% battery power, came home, and plugged it into the trickle charger (that's the only charger we have right now) and charged it all the way up. However, it now only charges to a range level saying we have 93 miles. Anyone else have this issue?

 

[DaveCox]

That is the Guess-O-Meter (GOM). Ignore it! It doesn't mean a thing. It is only an estimate that the computer is making based on your last driving patterns. Next time it could say more, and it could say less. It is not an indication of how far you can actually drive, and will continually throw you off. If you'll take a look back through the old posts, you can see a lot of comments about just how useless that GOM really is.

Dave

 

[dgpcolorado]

That is the Guess-O-Meter (GOM). Ignore it! It doesn't mean a thing. It is only an estimate that the computer is making based on your last driving patterns. Next time it could say more, and it could say less. It is not an indication of how far you can actually drive, and will continually throw you off. If you'll take a look back through the old posts, you can see a lot of comments about just how useless that GOM really is.

Dave

Well said!

Reports suggest that the 2013 GOM is better than the older one but throw in hills, wind, rain, or snow and it will be just as useless as the older one. 2013 LEAF drivers should learn how far they can go on a given % charge (SOC) under various road, speed, and weather conditions. Relying on the GOM just leads to confusion.

 

[plugzin]

Into my 26th month of lease (thankfully), and easily go through over half my bars wth a little over 20 miles of city driving. I had to quick charge today after logging about 40 miles. Car has 29K miles on the odometer. All my original capacity bars remain. Only 10 months left on the lease; good thing. I could see a business model where the cars are sold, and the batteries are leased. Think we'll see that? Nissan can take the old packs and re-purpose them for stationary applications. And, real value to the customer would be derived.

 

[GRA]

Into my 26th month of lease (thankfully), and easily go through over half my bars wth a little over 20 miles of city driving. I had to quick charge today after logging about 40 miles. Car has 29K miles on the odometer. All my original capacity bars remain. Only 10 months left on the lease; good thing. I could see a business model where the cars are sold, and the batteries are leased. Think we'll see that? Nissan can take the old packs and re-purpose them for stationary applications. And, real value to the customer would be derived.

Smart's doing just that. Your choice of buy/buy, buy/rent, lease/rent. See the Smart topic. Nissan and others will eventually need to follow.

 

[freshleaf]

First of my long run in my New 13SV.

Fully charge saying 95 on GOM.
Drove 60 miles, 90%Hwy 10% streets, driving with speed hitting 70, avg was 55..
After 60 mile of driving GOM saying 40. so I drove 60 miles but used 55.
Used 90% of the time ECO, B and also used N atleast 10 times .
Used Cruise control also.. So definitely I would have crossed 105 easily.

Temp 65-90, Straight roads.

If I had chosen AC during half of the drive (30miles) what you folks think the damaged be??

 

[planet4ever]

First of my long run in my New 13SV.
Fully charge saying 95 on GOM.
<snip>
After 60 mile of driving GOM saying 40.

Please don't tell us what the GOM says. We don't believe what it says, and we don't want to hear it. We do want to know what the m/kWh meter says, and expect you to reset it when you charge the car. That together with trip mileage says a lot. Since you have a 2013, tell us what the new charge% gauge says. It seems even that may be doctored a bit, but it has more precision than the 12 bars and seems to track them fairly well.

Caution: You'll see a lot of posts by us old-timers saying you have one or two "hidden bars" beyond the last one. NOT TRUE on your 2013. Watch the charge% gauge and the low battery warnings instead.

Ray

 

[freshleaf]

so far my average m/kwh saying 4.0. on 131 miles driven 50/50 hwy and city.

So is higher better or lower better.. I would guess a higher number be more desirable.

How one can reset the m/kWh

 

[TonyWilliams]

so far my average m/kwh saying 4.0. on 131 miles driven 50/50 hwy and city.

So is higher better or lower better.. I would guess a higher number be more desirable.

How one can reset the m/kWh

4 miles per kWh is a typical average user, and also the same economy that your car will get at a steady 65mph driving on a hard surface, dry, level roadway with no wind and no heater.

The LEAF battery holds 21kWh of usable energy when new (not degraded) and when warm (cold will constrict the usable energy).

So, 4 * 21 = 84 miles of range.

Please check out the Range Chart for other combinations of economy and stored usable energy.

 

[apvbguy]

4 miles per kWh is a typical average user, and also the same economy that your car will get at a steady 65mph driving on a hard surface, dry, level roadway with no wind and no heater.

The LEAF battery holds 21kWh of usable energy when new (not degraded) and when warm (cold will constrict the usable energy).

So, 4 * 21 = 84 miles of range.

Please check out the Range Chart for other combinations of economy and stored usable energy.

thanks for this data. I can assume that on a full charge, on my LEAF with under 1k miles on it with my 4.6 kwh performance that I can expect a little less than 100 miles of range per charge.

FWIW:
the one drawback to that chart is that it is using a constant speed as it's data point, my speeds vary throughout the trips I take.

 

[freshleaf]

Today I drove around 33 miles so far and only used 3 Bars. Put back on charging again. Work has many 110V outlets build in the parking Decks. Free Charging :lol:

 

[dgpcolorado]

so far my average m/kwh saying 4.0. on 131 miles driven 50/50 hwy and city.

So is higher better or lower better.. I would guess a higher number be more desirable.

How one can reset the m/kWh

Yes, a higher number means that you are getting more miles per kWh, so driving more efficiently.

You can reset the "Energy Economy" (miles/kWh) meter on the dash by using the buttons to the left of the steering wheel. The button with the square on it cycles between the displayed screens. When you are on the Energy Economy screen you can clear it by pressing and holding the button with the circle on it.

If you have an SV or SL model you also have an energy economy screen on the center console (it isn't available on the S model since that one has no Nav system or Carwings). The console Energy Economy meter is a subscreen of the main energy usage screen. Resetting that Energy Economy meter is pretty straightforward. [On older cars the console meter reads a few percent higher than the dash one; whether this has been fixed on the 2013 SV/SL models I couldn't say.]

To track my mileage efficiency I reset one meter daily (when I get home) and the other monthly to plot seasonal variation.