So, owners what range are you getting ?

[ELROY]

Would be good data for the Forum on my 6 month old, 4500 mile LEAF.

Get the Kyocera EVent Android phone (or use yours) from Best Buy, et al, (about $80), get the eBay OBD2 Bluetooth adaptor ($20), and download the app folks are using. If you already have or can borrow the phone, you'll be into it for about $20. It doesn't show Gids without a bit of wiring, but it has plenty of other great data for cheap. Link is here.

Otherwise, I wouldn't throw $50 away when I'm sure it would be a wise investment to have any of the multitude of Gidmeters out there.

By the way, you car is not that unusual. My 2012 LEAF, built in Japan in April 2012, with about 7000 miles had 10% capacity loss 5 months from production date in September 2012.

Interesting stuff! Wonder if the app will work with my Motorola Droid X2?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Interesting stuff! Wonder if the app will work with my Motorola Droid X2?

Uh, I don't know what that is, but if it's Android with a big enough screen to view the data, probably.

 

[ELROY]

Interesting stuff! Wonder if the app will work with my Motorola Droid X2?

Uh, I don't know what that is, but if it's Android with a big enough screen to view the data, probably.

You just type in the URL of the site, and it starts downloading the zip, correct?
I have tried it several times, but it keeps rejecting it. The Motorola Droid X2 is pretty much a standard Android phone (with a fairly large screen) that has been around for a while now.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Wild guess, try http://www.technipages.com/motorola-droid-allow-installation-of-apps-from-sources-outside-of-android-market.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

(I don't know as I don't have an Android phone anymore and never had one from Motorola or Verizon. I'd always heard about various carriers and phone OEMs having restrictive practices on certain Android phones.)

 

[ELROY]

^^^
Wild guess, try http://www.technipages.com/motorola-droid-allow-installation-of-apps-from-sources-outside-of-android-market.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

(I don't know as I don't have an Android phone anymore and never had one from Motorola or Verizon. I'd always heard about various carriers and phone OEMs having restrictive practices on certain Android phones.)

Good advice. I allowed non-market applications, but same error screen. Darn! I will buy another phone if that is what it takes. Trying to figure out what is the most cost effective phone to get on Ebay that will work. Should i look for an AT&T phone?

Unless someone else has some recommendations on my Droid X2. I would love to be able to use it for this application if possible.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Sorry that it didn't work. Hopefully someone more well-versed in this app and current Android phones can help.

The other possibility are some cheap 7" or smaller Android tablets (e.g. Google Nexus 7, Asus Memo Pad 7) or music players (I've seen some from Samsung; sorta like the iPod Touch is almost an iPhone w/o the phone), provided they don't have non-marketplace app restrictions.

Buying a new subsidized phone from a carrier opens another can of worms (contract, activation fees, they may not have plans you like, coverage, etc.)

 

[TonyWilliams]

^^^
Wild guess, try http://www.technipages.com/motorola-droid-allow-installation-of-apps-from-sources-outside-of-android-market.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

(I don't know as I don't have an Android phone anymore and never had one from Motorola or Verizon. I'd always heard about various carriers and phone OEMs having restrictive practices on certain Android phones.)

Good advice. I allowed non-market applications, but same error screen. Darn! I will buy another phone if that is what it takes. Trying to figure out what is the most cost effective phone to get on Ebay that will work. Should i look for an AT&T phone?

Unless someone else has some recommendations on my Droid X2. I would love to be able to use it for this application if possible.

They are successfully using the Kyocera Event phone from Best Buy $79 (set up for Virgin phone service, but you never need the phone part). There is a Samsung iPad Mini type thing I liked for $199, and a Samsung Note 8 that was about $3xx that was really slick that you might actually use it for other purposes.

 

[Yogi62]

Your efficiency seams low for a mild climate....
I would recommend getting your efficiency up so you don't EVER hit LBW.

His efficiency has nothing to due with battery capacity loss. Whether he had 3 miles/kWh or 5, the capacity will still be down about 10-20%. That's what he is trying to determine.

I would assert that his low efficiency which causes (apparent) frequent discharge to low SOC is contributing to his battery loss and decreased range (the topic of the thread). He may have had a weaker than average battery to start with, but if he keeps cycling it that hard it will only get worse. It appears to still be within the range Nissan will consider "normal" so I don't think there is any warranty remedy available. UNLESS, he is already doing the more conservative things and then that is a sure sign that there is something wrong like alignment, or dragging brakes. Otherwise it is best thing is to adjust to the hand dealt.

I have noticed with the 2013 that if I charge to 80% in the evening (takes about 75 minutes), in the morning it will start with 79% and the first couple of percent click off pretty quickly to 75-76% in about 2 miles and then it does a bit better. It could have to do with the pack cooling down overnight and then warming up when I drive it. If I took those initial numbers and extrapolated 5% = 2 miles = 40 mile "range" I would be way off. What I see on my standard round-trip commute path of 31.5 miles is about 43% charge when I return home +-2% based on how fast the highway portion was that day. So taking a 35% usage and 31.5 miles I get a full range of 90 miles, and I only plan on going 54 without a charging stop. In 10 years, if I take care of it, that will still be 63 miles and 36 miles respectively and more chargers will be out in the community so it will be easier to opportunity charge.

I also noticed that when I left it at the airport hooked to a chargepoint, the nice graph at the website showed it charged up in an hour, had zero draw until midnight and then spiked back to 6KW for 5 minutes and then dropped back to zero until the pre-heating started later that day. I think the spike happened because I have the timer set from midnight to midnight at 80% and the pack cooled off and "read" less than 80% when the midnight timer expired and started again. So I conclude that charging to 80% does not always mean you start driving with 80% based on the temps.

Looking back at the original question http://www.mynissanleaf.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=31&p=287153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the thread in trouble shooting forum, the good news is that he leased the car. The bad news is the first thing he did was take it from 12 bars to zero bars. The degradation models I have seen have the steepest drop in the first year, and I think the first 4000 miles he worked the battery pretty hard so I am not surprised there is some degradation, without the GID count on every charge cycle it is pretty hard to know exactly what is going on.

 

[ELROY]

Your efficiency seams low for a mild climate....
I would recommend getting your efficiency up so you don't EVER hit LBW.

His efficiency has nothing to due with battery capacity loss. Whether he had 3 miles/kWh or 5, the capacity will still be down about 10-20%. That's what he is trying to determine.

I would assert that his low efficiency which causes (apparent) frequent discharge to low SOC is contributing to his battery loss and decreased range (the topic of the thread). He may have had a weaker than average battery to start with, but if he keeps cycling it that hard it will only get worse. It appears to still be within the range Nissan will consider "normal" so I don't think there is any warranty remedy available. UNLESS, he is already doing the more conservative things and then that is a sure sign that there is something wrong like alignment, or dragging brakes. Otherwise it is best thing is to adjust to the hand dealt.

I have noticed with the 2013 that if I charge to 80% in the evening (takes about 75 minutes), in the morning it will start with 79% and the first couple of percent click off pretty quickly to 75-76% in about 2 miles and then it does a bit better. It could have to do with the pack cooling down overnight and then warming up when I drive it. If I took those initial numbers and extrapolated 5% = 2 miles = 40 mile "range" I would be way off. What I see on my standard round-trip commute path of 31.5 miles is about 43% charge when I return home +-2% based on how fast the highway portion was that day. So taking a 35% usage and 31.5 miles I get a full range of 90 miles, and I only plan on going 54 without a charging stop. In 10 years, if I take care of it, that will still be 63 miles and 36 miles respectively and more chargers will be out in the community so it will be easier to opportunity charge.

I also noticed that when I left it at the airport hooked to a chargepoint, the nice graph at the website showed it charged up in an hour, had zero draw until midnight and then spiked back to 6KW for 5 minutes and then dropped back to zero until the pre-heating started later that day. I think the spike happened because I have the timer set from midnight to midnight at 80% and the pack cooled off and "read" less than 80% when the midnight timer expired and started again. So I conclude that charging to 80% does not always mean you start driving with 80% based on the temps.

Looking back at the original question http://www.mynissanleaf.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=31&p=287153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the thread in trouble shooting forum, the good news is that he leased the car. The bad news is the first thing he did was take it from 12 bars to zero bars. The degradation models I have seen have the steepest drop in the first year, and I think the first 4000 miles he worked the battery pretty hard so I am not surprised there is some degradation, without the GID count on every charge cycle it is pretty hard to know exactly what is going on.

I think you don't understand that the reason I am running it down low, including the 2 times to turtle, is BECAUSE I have always suspected something is wrong with my battery. Running it the full range of charge is the only way I can determine what the range actually is. And the fact is, I need to run it to VLBW just to get 50-60 miles, which is what one would reasonably expect to get on a 80% charge. Also, I believe it has been stated there is more harm constantly charging it to 100%, than there is running it to VLBW.

On the other hand, in the interests of preserving the battery, remember the following factors regarding my LEAF:

I have never quick charged the battery.
I rarely charge to 100%, and never let it sit for longer periods at full charge.
It is always in moderate temperatures...never changes from 5 temp bars.
On average, I only charge it about once every 4 days. Not daily!

I think in general, I haven't abused the battery to get significant degradation in only a few months. I really have been afraid to charge it to 100% because I care so much about the health of my battery. The couple times I went from full charge to turtle were probably necessary to insure the pack was not out of balance.

Perhaps others can chime in that running my battery to VLBW isn't bad as a pack that spends more time at 100% SOC.

 

[Yogi62]

I think you don't understand that the reason I am running it down low, including the 2 times to turtle, is BECAUSE I have always suspected something is wrong with my battery. Running it the full range of charge is the only way I can determine what the range actually is. And the fact is, I need to run it to VLBW just to get 50-60 miles, which is what one would reasonably expect to get on a 80% charge. Also, I believe it has been stated there is more harm constantly charging it to 100%, than there is running it to VLBW.

On the other hand, in the interests of preserving the battery, remember the following factors regarding my LEAF:

I have never quick charged the battery.
I rarely charge to 100%, and never let it sit for longer periods at full charge.
It is always in moderate temperatures...never changes from 5 temp bars.
On average, I only charge it about once every 4 days. Not daily!

I think in general, I haven't abused the battery to get significant degradation in only a few months. I really have been afraid to charge it to 100% because I care so much about the health of my battery. The couple times I went from full charge to turtle were probably necessary to insure the pack was not out of balance.

Perhaps others can chime in that running my battery to VLBW isn't bad as a pack that spends more time at 100% SOC.

Great! Having just read through the troubleshooting thread I now understand better the journey you have been on.

Interesting difference is recharging every couple of days. I think part of the range estimates you get starting out and finish has a lot to
do with the first and last couple miles of your driving. Maybe downhill and slower on the way home? Uphill and faster "get to work!" on the way out?

What does carwings have for your traction motor, regen and accessory usage?

I hope you get to borrow a GID meter soon!

 

[ELROY]

I think you don't understand that the reason I am running it down low, including the 2 times to turtle, is BECAUSE I have always suspected something is wrong with my battery. Running it the full range of charge is the only way I can determine what the range actually is. And the fact is, I need to run it to VLBW just to get 50-60 miles, which is what one would reasonably expect to get on a 80% charge. Also, I believe it has been stated there is more harm constantly charging it to 100%, than there is running it to VLBW.

On the other hand, in the interests of preserving the battery, remember the following factors regarding my LEAF:

I have never quick charged the battery.
I rarely charge to 100%, and never let it sit for longer periods at full charge.
It is always in moderate temperatures...never changes from 5 temp bars.
On average, I only charge it about once every 4 days. Not daily!

I think in general, I haven't abused the battery to get significant degradation in only a few months. I really have been afraid to charge it to 100% because I care so much about the health of my battery. The couple times I went from full charge to turtle were probably necessary to insure the pack was not out of balance.

Perhaps others can chime in that running my battery to VLBW isn't bad as a pack that spends more time at 100% SOC.

Great! Having just read through the troubleshooting thread I now understand better the journey you have been on.

Interesting difference is recharging every couple of days. I think part of the range estimates you get starting out and finish has a lot to
do with the first and last couple miles of your driving. Maybe downhill and slower on the way home? Uphill and faster "get to work!" on the way out?

What does carwings have for your traction motor, regen and accessory usage?

I hope you get to borrow a GID meter soon!

I can't wait to get a meter on my car. This is exciting stuff with the Android app. Just really bummed out that it doesn't work with my Motorola Droid X .And truthfully, now that I have a good data set, I will probably just charge soon as I hit LBW from now on till I get a meter on my car.

They have this 7" tablet at Frys for $69. Wonder if it will be compatible?

 

[ELROY]

Tried the new Dropbox link, downloaded the APK file, worked like a charm!
Now I just have to go out and buy the bluetooth OBD adapter.
Thanks to Tony for pointing me in the right direction!

 

[TonyWilliams]

UNLESS, he is already doing the more conservative things and then that is a sure sign that there is something wrong like alignment, or dragging brakes.

These are all consumption rate issues, not capacity issues.

 

[planet4ever]

I also noticed that when I left it at the airport hooked to a chargepoint, the nice graph at the website showed it charged up in an hour, had zero draw until midnight and then spiked back to 6KW for 5 minutes and then dropped back to zero until the pre-heating started later that day. I think the spike happened because I have the timer set from midnight to midnight at 80% and the pack cooled off and "read" less than 80% when the midnight timer expired and started again.

This doesn't sound right to me. I believe it is generally accepted here that as the battery cools its capacity is reduced, not increased. So charging to 80% and then cooling the battery should result in a greater than 80% charge, not less.

My guess is that something else caused that 0.5kWh draw at midnight, though it was the timer that triggered it. It could be that in the 2013 they have fixed the 12v battery charging glitch, and the DC/DC converter had run during the zero draw period to recharge the 12v battery. Or it could be that some cell balancing had taken place after the end of the charge, even though it was only to 80%.

Ray

 

[TonyWilliams]

If you charge the battery at 70F, and cool it to 30F, you will lose about 10% capacity.

 

[ELROY]

Now I know after charging to 80%, the first two bars might go kind of quickly. I lost the first two SOC bars before traveling 3.3 miles. But tonight I got in the car and noticed with only 13.1 miles since charging it yesterday, I was down 4 bars. (10-4 bars=6 bars showing)

Now, I believe 4 bars is conservatively about 6kw. So with my 3.8mi/kWh economy up to that point..does 13.1 miles even seem plausible? If there is a major capacity problem in my 6month/4500 mile LEAF, will there be a way to convince Nissan to fix it?

 

[RegGuheert]

Now I know after charging to 80%, the first two bars might go kind of quickly. I lost the first two SOC bars before traveling 3.3 miles.

Sometimes after an 80% charge I can drive about 3.3 miles before losing just the 10th bar, but often it disappers in less than 3 miles. And my economy is right around 3.8 mi/kWh at that point since it is slightly uphill in the direction we normally go. Losing the 10th AND the 9th bars after just 3.3 miles is something I don't recall seeing.

But tonight I got in the car and noticed with only 13.1 miles since charging it yesterday, I was down 4 bars. (10-4 bars=6 bars showing)

Losing two more bars after 9.8 more miles seems about right for 3.8 mi/kWh, particularly considering the car was turned off. I use a rule of thumb of 4-7 miles per bar depending on driving efficiency. Very occasionally I lose a bar in less than four miles (like when climbing a mountain) or in more than 7 miles (like when hypermiling).

Now, I believe 4 bars is conservatively about 6kw. So with my 3.8mi/kWh economy up to that point..does 13.1 miles even seem plausible?

You only had part of the tenth bar to start with because of the 80% charge. (If you are close to losing a capacity bar, perhaps it wasn't even there to start with?) And you turned the car off, which likely means the seventh bar was still lit before you turned it off. My point is that during your 13.1 miles you lost all of bars 9 and 8, but only a portion of bars 10 and 7. At 3.8 mi/kWh that seems very plausible to me.

If there is a major capacity problem in my 6month/4500 mile LEAF, will there be a way to convince Nissan to fix it?

Losing the 9th bar after only 3.3 miles is the only anomaly I see in this data, and perhaps it is due to pack imbalances.

It will be good to see the results of a cell balance test on your car once you get that all running. Good luck!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Now I know after charging to 80%, the first two bars might go kind of quickly. I lost the first two SOC bars before traveling 3.3 miles. But tonight I got in the car and noticed with only 13.1 miles since charging it yesterday, I was down 4 bars. (10-4 bars=6 bars showing)

Now, I believe 4 bars is conservatively about 6kw. So with my 3.8mi/kWh economy up to that point..does 13.1 miles even seem plausible? If there is a major capacity problem in my 6month/4500 mile LEAF, will there be a way to convince Nissan to fix it?

FORGET THE FUEL BARS !!!!

The only data we can work with with moderate accuracy is 100% or 80% charge to LBW or VLB or Turtle.

The widest extremes (100% to Turtle) are best. We need the battery temperature and the dash economy. Additional super helpful data is a Gidmeter value and recharge consumed kWh.

No, Nissan isn't going to do anything about your battery. You seem stuck in a spinning tea cup at Disneyland with repeatedly presenting the same type of data over an over.

Your battery is down on capacity; that seems obvious. I estimate 10%-20% based on your numerous previous posts. Nissan will do absolutely nothing, and frankly, this isn't that unusual. Yes, it sucks, but that's where you're at.

 

[ELROY]

Yes, I figured the testing I did of the full range of charge from 100% to VLBW or turtle would be the most useful data. Ironically as Yogi stated, the testing may have made the pack even worse. I wish I had a gidometer when the car was brand new, as I really believe the car was down from the day I left the dealership. If I had complained about it the first week, perhaps they would have done something. Unfortunately it took this long to try and log extensive range data. I have my bluetooth OBD adapter on rush order...will see what readings I get in a few days.

Now I know after charging to 80%, the first two bars might go kind of quickly. I lost the first two SOC bars before traveling 3.3 miles. But tonight I got in the car and noticed with only 13.1 miles since charging it yesterday, I was down 4 bars. (10-4 bars=6 bars showing)

Now, I believe 4 bars :lol: is conservatively about 6kw. So with my 3.8mi/kWh economy up to that point..does 13.1 miles even seem plausible? If there is a major capacity problem in my 6month/4500 mile LEAF, will there be a way to convince Nissan to fix it?

FORGET THE FUEL BARS !!!!

The only data we can work with with moderate accuracy is 100% or 80% charge to LBW or VLB or Turtle.

The widest extremes (100% to Turtle) are best. We need the battery temperature and the dash economy. Additional super helpful data is a Gidmeter value and recharge consumed kWh.

No, Nissan isn't going to do anything about your battery. You seem stuck in a spinning tea cup at Disneyland with repeatedly presenting the same type of data over an over.

Your battery is down on capacity; that seems obvious. I estimate 10%-20% based on your numerous previous posts. Nissan will do absolutely nothing, and frankly, this isn't that unusual. Yes, it sucks, but that's where you're at.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, I figured the testing I did of the full range of charge from 100% to VLBW or turtle would be the most useful data. Ironically as Yogi stated, the testing may have made the pack even worse...

I doubt it. Heat is the number one killer. There are plenty of folks who cycle the battery from full to near empty, one already last 70,000 miles. He has remarkably low degradation compared to the miles, but the car is in western Washington where it never gets hot.

Leaving the car for long periods high battery SOC, particularly in heat - bad
Leaving the car for long periods with a low battery - bad
Leaving the car in extreme heat - bad
Freezing the battery (about -30C) - bad
DC charging at high battery temp - bad
Sustained high load on battery (driving 93mph uphill forever) - bad


Leaving the car in a cold climate at 50% SOC and never driving it - good

Everything else is compromise