Official Tesla Model 3 thread

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I reserved the model 3 last year because for $35k I could get a pretty fast tesla which would have good standard features and self-driving. I soon learned that "self driving hardware" is not the same as self driving.

Right after my reservation they released details about the model 3. I learned that to get power seats I'd need to get the premium package, pushing price up to $40k. I learned that to have a now-common feature in many other cars (dynamic cruise control) I would need EAP. Now the car was $45k. Another $1k if I want non-black. Well, that sucks, but reviews are very good and I can still get a bit of tax credit.

They have pushed my SR estimate from mid 2018 now to early 2019. That means little if any credits other than maybe my state credit.

So then I look at what does $45k buy me if I'm willing to spend that on a car? And if I'm objective, it buys an absolute ton of car--way more, in fact, than the model 3 has.

The model 3 is a beautiful EV powertrain and little else. The self-driving dream is one that seems hard to grasp. They have nailed traffic aware cruise control (as other brands have done), but not much else. It's not safe enough to consistently drive in full autopilot mode. The car is not big, it lacks features available in other brands at this price (HUD, heated steering, etc.).

If I needed an EV I'd be heart broken right now because I don't see any other one on the market truly interesting. Thankfully I don't need another EV. I am okay buying another hybrid to replace what I drive now or even a full gas car again. This news is not terribly surprising to me and I will act accordingly. Reservation stays for now, but I'm almost out on the notion of owning a model 3.

I am seeing a lot of new accounts on the tesla forums today saying they are cancelling. Some may be lying, some trolling. I'm sure they aren't all lying or trolling.

And meanwhile on the same day Tesla pushes back by many months thousands of potential customers now Musk is talking about spending capital later this year on the model y. Unbelievable.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I would hold onto your reservation if you are still considering. Demand for LR and AWD was higher than expected and there were also many reservation conversions over time. Depending on your slot things may move quite a bit and there are early reservations that will pass at the time of order and later ones added. It would not surprise me if cars are delivered earlier than expected to many buyers and later for others than expected. One new development is that AWD will be available on both LR and SR models, this changed the cue as they are now mixed together. With such massive pre orders and changes in orders it becomes a moving target but I expect the latest email and new choices to reveal better estimates. A large chunk of Tesla employees pushed their orders for AWD, white interior, SR, etc. This was not expected nor was the very high AWD demand which may have had a part in how it is being delivered. I know they are moving up the AWD deliveries and production based on the unexpected demand categories.

 

[lorenfb]

I reserved the model 3 last year because for $35k I could get a pretty fast tesla which would have good standard features and self-driving. I soon learned that "self driving hardware" is not the same as self driving.

Right after my reservation they released details about the model 3. I learned that to get power seats I'd need to get the premium package, pushing price up to $40k. I learned that to have a now-common feature in many other cars (dynamic cruise control) I would need EAP. Now the car was $45k. Another $1k if I want non-black. Well, that sucks, but reviews are very good and I can still get a bit of tax credit.

They have pushed my SR estimate from mid 2018 now to early 2019. That means little if any credits other than maybe my state credit.

So then I look at what does $45k buy me if I'm willing to spend that on a car? And if I'm objective, it buys an absolute ton of car--way more, in fact, than the model 3 has.

The model 3 is a beautiful EV powertrain and little else. The self-driving dream is one that seems hard to grasp. They have nailed traffic aware cruise control (as other brands have done), but not much else. It's not safe enough to consistently drive in full autopilot mode. The car is not big, it lacks features available in other brands at this price (HUD, heated steering, etc.).

If I needed an EV I'd be heart broken right now because I don't see any other one on the market truly interesting. Thankfully I don't need another EV. I am okay buying another hybrid to replace what I drive now or even a full gas car again. This news is not terribly surprising to me and I will act accordingly. Reservation stays for now, but I'm almost out on the notion of owning a model 3.

I am seeing a lot of new accounts on the tesla forums today saying they are cancelling. Some may be lying, some trolling. I'm sure they aren't all lying or trolling.

And meanwhile on the same day Tesla pushes back by many months thousands of potential customers now Musk is talking about spending capital later this year on the model y. Unbelievable.

Thanks for your very rational view as a reservation holder.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I reserved the model 3 last year because for $35k I could get a pretty fast tesla which would have good standard features and self-driving. I soon learned that "self driving hardware" is not the same as self driving.

Right after my reservation they released details about the model 3. I learned that to get power seats I'd need to get the premium package, pushing price up to $40k. I learned that to have a now-common feature in many other cars (dynamic cruise control) I would need EAP. Now the car was $45k. Another $1k if I want non-black. Well, that sucks, but reviews are very good and I can still get a bit of tax credit.

They have pushed my SR estimate from mid 2018 now to early 2019. That means little if any credits other than maybe my state credit.

So then I look at what does $45k buy me if I'm willing to spend that on a car? And if I'm objective, it buys an absolute ton of car--way more, in fact, than the model 3 has.

The model 3 is a beautiful EV powertrain and little else. The self-driving dream is one that seems hard to grasp. They have nailed traffic aware cruise control (as other brands have done), but not much else. It's not safe enough to consistently drive in full autopilot mode. The car is not big, it lacks features available in other brands at this price (HUD, heated steering, etc.).

If I needed an EV I'd be heart broken right now because I don't see any other one on the market truly interesting. Thankfully I don't need another EV. I am okay buying another hybrid to replace what I drive now or even a full gas car again. This news is not terribly surprising to me and I will act accordingly. Reservation stays for now, but I'm almost out on the notion of owning a model 3.

I am seeing a lot of new accounts on the tesla forums today saying they are cancelling. Some may be lying, some trolling. I'm sure they aren't all lying or trolling.

And meanwhile on the same day Tesla pushes back by many months thousands of potential customers now Musk is talking about spending capital later this year on the model y. Unbelievable.

If you are looking for a big car why not get a used S with free SC?

 

[lorenfb]

If you are looking for a big car why not get a used S with free SC?

Are you really Elon?

 

[EVDRIVER]

If you are looking for a big car why not get a used S with free SC?

Are you really Elon?

No but a used S makes a bunch of sense for many people.

 

[lorenfb]

If you are looking for a big car why not get a used S with free SC?

Are you really Elon?

No but a used S makes a bunch of sense for many people.

Yes, it's called "bait & switch"!

 

[EVDRIVER]

Are you really Elon?

No but a used S makes a bunch of sense for many people.

Yes, it's called "bait & switch"!

What exactly is bait and switch, please give a very specific answer with evidence. Who exactly is engaging in this? Are you are implying Tesla is doing this? That's comical.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

If you are looking for a big car why not get a used S with free SC?

I just don't see the value in them. The used Model S are a good $50k, rarely less, often more. That's for a car with thousands of miles on it already and out of pocket repairs are going to get ugly. For the same amount of money I can get a full size sedan from other auto-makers, brand new. But I also don't want to spend $50k on a car!

I honestly do think tesla is doing a bait and switch now. I don't even mean how they try and upsell to the S (My model 3 reservation page even says on it I can put that money toward a model S), and how they called me after my res to see if I wanted to drive an S.

They are bait and switching because last year they announced this $35k car that would be available the same year, 2017. Now it's 2019. Or later? Meanwhile they are cranking out LR. We were told previously it was where they'd start because they had to start somewhere, but it's evident to me they are not selling the $35k car soon not because they can't but because they don't want to. So they took my money telling me it would be about a year wait and now it's moved up to the two year mark. But hey, if I want a model 3 soon I can order one for $49k instead.

If not already very shortly people who reserved early and wanted an SR will be deferring their purchase because the only thing available is the LR. So people who reserved later will be able to buy.

I believe Tesla should not have accepted reservations for the $35k if their intention was to only create the LR for a very long time first. I feel we're being led on. This is an early reservation showing SR available almost immediately after LR, but to date they are not even on the horizon.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-design-studio-configurator-2500-deposit/

I'm keeping my reservation because if I need the $1k I can get it, I want to keep a place in line for now, and making decisions out of frustration or anger are rarely beneficial.

 

[EVDRIVER]

If you are looking for a big car why not get a used S with free SC?

I just don't see the value in them. The used Model S are a good $50k, rarely less, often more. That's for a car with thousands of miles on it already and out of pocket repairs are going to get ugly. For the same amount of money I can get a full size sedan from other auto-makers, brand new. But I also don't want to spend $50k on a car!

I honestly do think tesla is doing a bait and switch now. I don't even mean how they try and upsell to the S (My model 3 reservation page even says on it I can put that money toward a model S), and how they called me after my res to see if I wanted to drive an S.

They are bait and switching because last year they announced this $35k car that would be available the same year, 2017. Now it's 2019. Or later? Meanwhile they are cranking out LR. We were told previously it was where they'd start because they had to start somewhere, but it's evident to me they are not selling the $35k car soon not because they can't but because they don't want to. So they took my money telling me it would be about a year wait and now it's moved up to the two year mark. But hey, if I want a model 3 soon I can order one for $49k instead.

If not already very shortly people who reserved early and wanted an SR will be deferring their purchase because the only thing available is the LR. So people who reserved later will be able to buy.

I believe Tesla should not have accepted reservations for the $35k if their intention was to only create the LR for a very long time first. I feel we're being led on. This is an early reservation showing SR available almost immediately after LR, but to date they are not even on the horizon.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-design-studio-configurator-2500-deposit/

I'm keeping my reservation because if I need the $1k I can get it, I want to keep a place in line for now, and making decisions out of frustration or anger are rarely beneficial.

It's not bait and switch, that's intent to defraud without intention to deliver the original product which is the opposite of the end goal and thier business philosophy. They clearly have massive demand and production issues which they admitted day one and of course they will offer alternatives in the meantime which is logical but hardly a scam, just good business. It seems every person had their reservation generically pushed out so someone is getting cars between now and then My guess is they adjust they schedule again barring any major disasters. Tesla had no intent to mislead and anyone that owns any manufacturing business knows how these things go under even normal circumstances. It's amazing they were even delivering cars in 2017 at all. I would not want to be Tesla as they can ramp up for more production and loose orders and be out of luck. The risk is all on their side as a manufacturer yet the consumers act as though they are being scammed and deceived. Anyone that thinks Tesla is being deceptive should cancel now and buy something else so they can firm up their numbers because many reservation holders are likely not even serious buyers. What a fresh hell to deal with this mess as a supplier and auto maker, it's not like scaling for a Forman grill in China. I spent many years in product development and supply chain for a fortune 50 company and there is no way I would want to be the person at Tesla doing forecasting or supplier relations, talk about sheer hell. Here is what i think, anyone with a reservation that is thinking twice should cancel now and revisit in six months so they know exactly how many serious buyers they have. Or Tesla can refund everyone and make cars, ship them to Tesla dealers and let the free market dictate pricing, my guess is they would make much more profit that way, plus no complaining about reservation slots, etc. I remember PT Cruisers selling for $5K over MSRP. It's not ideal but it's a **** show and Tesla has the risk and consumers have the choice.

 

[scottf200]

Title: Let's talk about "bad faith" for a minute...
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/7w64ms/discussion_lets_talk_about_bad_faith_for_a_minute/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My apologies in advance for the wall of text, but there's something we need to discuss. A recurring theme on this sub, prompted by bad news from Tesla (particularly schedule delays), is that Tesla has engaged in "bad faith." Sometimes, this assertion looks like an accusation: "Model 3 delayed? But I gave them $1000! Tesla is going to get sued for its bad faith! I HAVE RIGHTS, DAMMIT!!!"

As a Model 3 reservation holder (in person, 3/31), I totally understand the exquisite torture of this wait. But, as an attorney in the U.S., slinging claims of "bad faith" rubs me the wrong way. I've litigated consumer fraud cases and claims of "bad faith" negotiations or "bad faith" behavior, and I don't think it's fair to claim that Tesla has engaged in deceptive practices. Let me explain why...

Legal dictionaries define "bad faith" as: intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations, misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. (States typically recognize claims for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, but I'm not going to do a survey of state legislation or common law.) The basic definition is enough for our purposes. Let's break down its elements:

• "intentional dishonest act"
  If there is any evidence that Tesla believed at the time the estimates were made that they could not be fulfilled, I haven't seen it. Were they optimistic? Probably. Did they fall far short of the planned ramp? Of course! But there is no evidence that Elon sat down with Voldemort, Moff Tarkin, and Lex Luthor and said "boys, we're going to promise delivery in January, even though we can NEVER do it, because we want that sweet, sweet kilobuck from u/_rdaneel_. Now, hold my ambien-spiked syrah while I go do some dishonest ****."
• "by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations"
  Critically, your $1000 reservation fee - per the agreement with Tesla that you accepted - is not a "deposit." It bears no interest and does not entitle you to anything at any time. You're holding a place in line, and can back out at any time without penalty. The fine print (lawyers love fine print!) says that Tesla has not promised to sell you a car, ever.
• "misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others"
  As described above, there is no evidence that Tesla ever intended to NOT sell you a Model 3. In fact, the several thousand Model 3s on the road suggest that Tesla does, indeed, want to trade your cheddar for their car. As for the "basic standards of honesty," I repeat that missing a goal, even an optimistic one, is not dishonest (at least legally speaking). No state attorney general is going to pursue Tesla over this claim. "BUT, BUT, BUT TEH TAX CREDITZ!" Note that Tesla never promised that you would be entitled to a federal tax credit. Indeed, the $35,000 base price is "before tax incentives." So if there are no tax incentives, you still pay $35,000.

You may feel sad, or mad, or hurt that you haven't gotten your car. I share your pain. But the law doesn't exist to protect our feelings. It exists to protect consumers from deliberate faleshoods. Until some new evidence surfaces, I'm going to continue to give Tesla the (legally-required!) benefit of the doubt and just keep wishing for that invitation to configure. In the mean time, let's collectively knock off the "bad faith" claims.
<<<<<<<<<<<< end <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

[EVDRIVER]

Let me quote Lorenfb in response: "Thanks for your very rational view as a reservation holder."


Tesla is evil and they should pay for what they have done to consumers in such a sneaky and malicious manner, they signed binding contracts with consumers, broke key deliverables in writing, and used deposits to put a car in orbit instead. Now that we have dispensed with the internet nonsense and Tesla trolling we can hopefully move on to other BS. Unfortunately a by product of Tesla is a group of entitled consumers that refuse to grasp reality when their personal needs are not met on their timetable. In most cases they have no idea about the law and/or how businesses are run. The ones you don't hear from are waiting on their reservations or moving on to other options. I'm sure some fool will try to sue Tesla for not getting their car soon enough and for damages to their personal life. Also, anyone worried about their deposit may want to get a refund now, if Tesla files BK you can loose it before your car is delivered.

 

[RegGuheert]

...or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. ...

When my son made his reservation for a Model 3, I told him three things:

- Elon Musk never delivers on time.
- Elon Musk always comes back and tells reservation holders that he cannot sell the car for the amount he originally said.
- Elon Musk always builds the expensive versions of the car before he offers the cheaper versions for sale.

I told him it is possible that would change, but to not count on it since that was his behavior up until that time.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I just don't see the value in them. The used Model S are a good $50k, rarely less, often more. That's for a car with thousands of miles on it already and out of pocket repairs are going to get ugly. For the same amount of money I can get a full size sedan from other auto-makers, brand new. But I also don't want to spend $50k on a car! ...

While I can understand not wanting to pay $50k for a car, the CPOs sold with fewer than 50k miles usually have the same four year 50k mile overall warranty as new cars, plus the balance of the eight year drive train (and battery) warranty. No out of pocket payment for repairs for four years/50k miles, something I know from personal experience. While that won't change anything for you, I just wanted to correct the record.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

If you are looking for a big car why not get a used S with free SC?

I just don't see the value in them. The used Model S are a good $50k, rarely less, often more. That's for a car with thousands of miles on it already and out of pocket repairs are going to get ugly. For the same amount of money I can get a full size sedan from other auto-makers, brand new. But I also don't want to spend $50k on a car!

I honestly do think tesla is doing a bait and switch now. I don't even mean how they try and upsell to the S (My model 3 reservation page even says on it I can put that money toward a model S), and how they called me after my res to see if I wanted to drive an S.

They are bait and switching because last year they announced this $35k car that would be available the same year, 2017. Now it's 2019. Or later? Meanwhile they are cranking out LR. We were told previously it was where they'd start because they had to start somewhere, but it's evident to me they are not selling the $35k car soon not because they can't but because they don't want to. So they took my money telling me it would be about a year wait and now it's moved up to the two year mark. But hey, if I want a model 3 soon I can order one for $49k instead.

If not already very shortly people who reserved early and wanted an SR will be deferring their purchase because the only thing available is the LR. So people who reserved later will be able to buy.

I believe Tesla should not have accepted reservations for the $35k if their intention was to only create the LR for a very long time first. I feel we're being led on. This is an early reservation showing SR available almost immediately after LR, but to date they are not even on the horizon.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-design-studio-configurator-2500-deposit/

I'm keeping my reservation because if I need the $1k I can get it, I want to keep a place in line for now, and making decisions out of frustration or anger are rarely beneficial.

It's not bait and switch, that's intent to defraud without intention to deliver the original product which is the opposite of the end goal and thier business philosophy. They clearly have massive demand and production issues which they admitted day one and of course they will offer alternatives in the meantime which is logical but hardly a scam, just good business. It seems every person had their reservation generically pushed out so someone is getting cars between now and then My guess is they adjust they schedule again barring any major disasters. Tesla had no intent to mislead and anyone that owns any manufacturing business knows how these things go under even normal circumstances. It's amazing they were even delivering cars in 2017 at all. I would not want to be Tesla as they can ramp up for more production and loose orders and be out of luck. The risk is all on their side as a manufacturer yet the consumers act as though they are being scammed and deceived. Anyone that thinks Tesla is being deceptive should cancel now and buy something else so they can firm up their numbers because many reservation holders are likely not even serious buyers. What a fresh hell to deal with this mess as a supplier and auto maker, it's not like scaling for a Forman grill in China. I spent many years in product development and supply chain for a fortune 50 company and there is no way I would want to be the person at Tesla doing forecasting or supplier relations, talk about sheer hell. Here is what i think, anyone with a reservation that is thinking twice should cancel now and revisit in six months so they know exactly how many serious buyers they have. Or Tesla can refund everyone and make cars, ship them to Tesla dealers and let the free market dictate pricing, my guess is they would make much more profit that way, plus no complaining about reservation slots, etc. I remember PT Cruisers selling for $5K over MSRP. It's not ideal but it's a **** show and Tesla has the risk and consumers have the choice.

I agree with most of this except I can't ditch my reservation yet

I've never made light of how difficult it is to get this going and it's still remarkable tesla is even a functioning company, given the history of failed new vehicle manufacturers in the past.

All dates have been pushed but not necessarily generically; Tesla is clearly skewing Standard Range delivery as late as they can. That's my issue. I totally understand it from a business perspective and I would probably do the same, but it sucks to be on the receiving end of it.

 

[lpickup]

All dates have been pushed but not necessarily generically; Tesla is clearly skewing Standard Range delivery as late as they can. That's my issue. I totally understand it from a business perspective and I would probably do the same, but it sucks to be on the receiving end of it.

And it's not even necessarily the case that they are skewing SR as late as they can get away with. While there are good profit margin reasons to do so, there may also be demand reasons to do so. It seemed like they were giving priority to SR over AWD, but that seems to have potentially flip flopped. That may be due to technical reasons related to the battery module bottleneck, or it may simply be due to the fact that Tesla is getting a picture (from owners that have indicated "hold my place in line") that the numbers of people deferring for AWD are > the number of people deferring for SR.

 

[OrientExpress]

Timing and churn is the thing that I see that is a major danger for Tesla. If they are not able to ramp up to volume before Q3-18 and still have a huge backlog they will lose an enormous volume of voice in the market because everybody and their brother, and some cousins are going to be introducing some very credible, "made by adults" BEVs in that time frame. All of the reservation holders for the 3 that are easily distracted by the latest, coolest stuff that they can barely afford will churn out and be cannibalized by BEVs from Porsche, AMG, Nismo, NiO, Lucid, FF, a Jag, Infiniti, VW and many many more. I guess it would be easier to say who isn't going to have a BEV in 2019. Competition is a great thing. It tests our mettle, and can be a measure of how much positive capital they have.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Timing and churn is the thing that I see that is a major danger for Tesla. If they are not able to ramp up to volume before Q3-17 and still have a huge backlog they will lose an enormous volume of voice in the market because everybody and their brother, and some cousins are going to be introducing some very credible, "made by adults" BEVs in that time frame. All of the reservation holders for the 3 that are easily distracted by the latest, coolest stuff that they can barely afford will churn out and be cannibalized by BEVs from Porsche, AMG, Nismo, NiO, Lucid, FF, a Jag, Infiniti, VW and many many more. I guess it would be easier to say who isn't going to have a BEV in 2019. Competition is a great thing. It tests our mettle, and can be a measure of how much positive capital they have.

Think you mean Q3 2018, and good luck on these: Nismo, NiO, Lucid, FF, a Jag, Infiniti, VW. Lucid is still tearing apart M3s now to see how they work.

 

[Ingineer]

I purchased a 3 for an engineering evaluation, and now I'm selling it. It's listed on Ebay, as new except for around 250 test miles. Pristine inside and out. Even did the aero hub cap test, and it does improve range by about 3%.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192448376705

 

[scottf200]

Title: 2.5k/week target (end of Q1) not dependent on new Grohmann line
IR Tesla com SEC filing: http://ir.tesla.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1564590-18-1786&CIK=1318605

With respect to battery module production, Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1, as well as the incremental capacity that is currently being added through the semi-automated lines that were also discussed during the conference call.