Official Tesla Model 3 thread

[OrientExpress]

Not exactly apple to apples. One thing many people are not aware of is the the STD model 3 has FULL autonomous hardware included in the every car. Because of this the car also has redundant systems in many areas as a safety measure for this implementation even if it is not turned on at the time of purchase.

While being L3 ready is nice, it adds zero benefits today. By the time that the SW upgrade is made available for purchase from Tesla to make this hardware functional, everyone else will have ridden the hardware cost curve down, increased functionality, and will offer ready to go fully functional autonomous services for a fraction of what Tesla asks for today just for the hardware.

The electronics and automotive world is littered with the abandoned hardware that will enable some future service. While those that wait for a fully baked product get it at bargain basement prices, and champagne features.

 

[OrientExpress]

Honestly, wouldn't you rather have an $80K Porsche, Audi, or MB performance/luxury BEV than a Tesla?

Honestly? No.

Why?

 

[RegGuheert]

Honestly, wouldn't you rather have an $80K Porsche, Audi, or MB performance/luxury BEV than a Tesla?

Honestly? No.

Why?

#1 Superchargers
#2 Made in the USA
#3 None of those others really impress me.

But for that price, I'd prefer to get a Model S instead of a Model 3.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Not exactly apple to apples. One thing many people are not aware of is the the STD model 3 has FULL autonomous hardware included in the every car. Because of this the car also has redundant systems in many areas as a safety measure for this implementation even if it is not turned on at the time of purchase. This includes such things like:

Braking with separate backup via the ABS
2 CAN busses
Parallel 12V power on opposite sides of the car for collision redundancy
Dual coil power steering windings and redundant dedicated CAN busses
And more..

Also the car has no fuses of any kind, all the power systems are solid state. These design philosophies are built around robust safety systems and are not present in cars like the LEAF and others. Clearly the cost to do this including eight high resolution cameras and many sensors is costly.

And yet, something as simple as a a dead 12 V battery (180 posts, still no diagnosis) results in this model 3 experience:

Tesla Model 3 Down: Won't Power Up, and is Inaccessible

This afternoon, I opened my app to check on the Model 3's charge status. I noticed it wasn't updating and hadn't updated since before 7am, about 9 hours earlier. I went out to the car and it was completely "dead." By that I mean unresponsive with no lights or activity. Tesla was originally sending a flatbed, but because we can't get inside to put it into tow mode, we both agreed waiting for a Ranger to come on Monday would be a better option...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-model-3-down-wont-power-up-and-is-inaccessible.108412/

Relevance to my post?. I was not aware the TMC was the service leg for Tesla and the number of posts on a forum is somehow indicative of anything other than a bunch of opinions. How many battery posts are on this forum for both 12V and traction packs? If a Tesla gets a flat tire the sky falls and the company is going to fail. I can't wait to find out about all those motor magnets that are flying off. Ultimately the sky will fall down and crush all Tesla cars unless you have tin foil hat on.

 

[edatoakrun]

Not exactly apple to apples. One thing many people are not aware of is the the STD model 3 has FULL autonomous hardware included in the every car. Because of this the car also has redundant systems in many areas as a safety measure for this implementation even if it is not turned on at the time of purchase. This includes such things like:

Braking with separate backup via the ABS
2 CAN busses
Parallel 12V power on opposite sides of the car for collision redundancy
Dual coil power steering windings and redundant dedicated CAN busses
And more..

Also the car has no fuses of any kind, all the power systems are solid state. These design philosophies are built around robust safety systems and are not present in cars like the LEAF and others. Clearly the cost to do this including eight high resolution cameras and many sensors is costly.

And yet, something as simple as a a dead 12 V battery (180 posts, still no diagnosis) results in this model 3 experience:

Tesla Model 3 Down: Won't Power Up, and is Inaccessible

This afternoon, I opened my app to check on the Model 3's charge status. I noticed it wasn't updating and hadn't updated since before 7am, about 9 hours earlier. I went out to the car and it was completely "dead." By that I mean unresponsive with no lights or activity. Tesla was originally sending a flatbed, but because we can't get inside to put it into tow mode, we both agreed waiting for a Ranger to come on Monday would be a better option...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-model-3-down-wont-power-up-and-is-inaccessible.108412/

Point being?..

That the model 3 is so poorly designed, it's funny.

Sorry you didn't get the joke.

 

[jlv]

And yet, something as simple as a a dead 12 V battery (180 posts, still no diagnosis) results in this

180 posts discussing the problem. The OP said (#157):

UPDATE 1

Nothing particularly exciting to report, however a flatbed (not owned by Tesla) arrived this morning. Of note, they picked up a Tesla technician to bring with them. I believe it was at least partially to teach the tow company how to get use the 12 volt access to open the frunk. (They did this and, yes, it worked.) Based on my discussions with Tesla earlier and what I saw today, it appears this was the first Model 3 they ever flat-bedded. (So, clearly this isn't happening on a wide scale.) There was solid communication from Roadside Assistance (via phone call updates this morning) before they arrived and also to confirm they arrived.

But, this is very serious. Nothing like all the threads here about people who had brake problems because of low 12V batteries.

 

[EVDRIVER]

And yet, something as simple as a a dead 12 V battery (180 posts, still no diagnosis) results in this model 3 experience:


https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-model-3-down-wont-power-up-and-is-inaccessible.108412/

Point being?..

That the model 3 is so poorly designed, it's funny.

Sorry you didn't get the joke.

No I don't get it, a 12V battery dies so what?. People on the internet love to give their opinion, nothing new there. A dead battery is now a bad design? I guess that makes the LEAF a complete failure. I do find most of this thread pretty funny actually and the people that just search for any petty thing wrong on any Tesla and then make it into a major production.

 

[EVDRIVER]

And yet, something as simple as a a dead 12 V battery (180 posts, still no diagnosis) results in this

180 posts discussing the problem. The OP said (#157):

UPDATE 1

Nothing particularly exciting to report, however a flatbed (not owned by Tesla) arrived this morning. Of note, they picked up a Tesla technician to bring with them. I believe it was at least partially to teach the tow company how to get use the 12 volt access to open the frunk. (They did this and, yes, it worked.) Based on my discussions with Tesla earlier and what I saw today, it appears this was the first Model 3 they ever flat-bedded. (So, clearly this isn't happening on a wide scale.) There was solid communication from Roadside Assistance (via phone call updates this morning) before they arrived and also to confirm they arrived.

But, this is very serious. Nothing like all the threads here about people who had brake problems because of low 12V batteries.

Better yet my LEAF "stability" control started braking on a corner and almost threw me into a wall on a curve. No wet road and no traction related issues, it just decided to brake one wheel like crazy. That was memorable Now it that happened on a Tesla it would be everywhere with 60K posts and a doomsday parade. Reminds me of the kids in grade school that picked on the girls they liked.

 

[lorenfb]

So what if the M3 at $35K arrives in late 2018 or never, it’s now the Model Y to focus on right?

With the Model 3's profitability or even an ability to achieve any positive gross margin, ever - in doubt,
it should come as no surprise that on the 4Q conference call last week, Tesla's management tried to turn
the focus to the Model Y.

We learned from the 4Q 2017 conference call that:
1. We would see the Model Y in concept from 3-6 months from now.
2. We would learn the manufacturing plans/location of the Model Y in 3-6 months from now.
3. Tesla hopes to make one million Model Y units per year.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4145865-tesla-model-y-factory-site-timing-production-competitive-landscape#alt2

Just think, Tesla can generate some needed cash flow by taking reservations on the Model Y when the concept
is announced, just like two years ago for the M3. How great would that be, easy money, right?

 

[Evoforce]

So what if the M3 at $35K arrives in late 2018 or never, it’s now the Model Y to focus on right?

With the Model 3's profitability or even an ability to achieve any positive gross margin, ever - in doubt,
it should come as no surprise that on the 4Q conference call last week, Tesla's management tried to turn
the focus to the Model Y.

We learned from the 4Q 2017 conference call that:
1. We would see the Model Y in concept from 3-6 months from now.
2. We would learn the manufacturing plans/location of the Model Y in 3-6 months from now.
3. Tesla hopes to make one million Model Y units per year.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4145865-tesla-model-y-factory-site-timing-production-competitive-landscape#alt2

Just think, Tesla can generate some needed cash flow by taking reservations on the Model Y when the concept
is announced, just like two years ago for the M3. How great would that be, easy money, right?

Tesla is the best car on the market right now! I don't know why you don't like that. You are apparently wishing/wanting something else to be. But you are so contrary to Tesla, it is hard to take you seriously.

There very well could be a better car in the future produced by another manufacturer, but that hasn't happened yet. Wishing for Tesla to fail or not be the current leader may make you "feel" better, but it is not reality. Nothing is perfect, and all of these car companies are struggling with one thing or another.

Let's embrace them all and hope that they solve their imperfections! Nothing is wrong with pointing out shortcomings, but do it in the spirit of helping. I wouldn't want any of these companies to quit or fail. We need them all to continue the advancement of BEV.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Saying the Tesla is the best car (EV) on the market is a bit subjective, the rest is pretty accurate. You can't convince a person that has never even driven one and is bitter about their current vehicle. If it's a pyramid scheme it's a good one to push the others along, but what isn't these days.

 

[OrientExpress]

I’ll agree that Tesla is the best over $45K BEV on the market today, and will add that the 2018 LEAF is the best under $45K BEV on the market today too.

In other words, nothing has really changed in the BEV market place.

 

[Nubo]

Have you toured the Fremont factory? We all know this is typical but it's not as though Tesla has multiple models on the same platform and many other cars they produce that way, they are migrating from basically custom line built cars to more standard production. At this point it makes more sense to produce runs of similar "equipped" M3 cars at the same time to maximize production speed and profitability. ...

And I might find that reasonable we’re the duration of “runs” a week or two. But when the most basic configuration run is postponed a year, that isn’t driven by production speed concerns.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

So what if the M3 at $35K arrives in late 2018 or never, it’s now the Model Y to focus on right?

With the Model 3's profitability or even an ability to achieve any positive gross margin, ever - in doubt,
it should come as no surprise that on the 4Q conference call last week, Tesla's management tried to turn
the focus to the Model Y.

We learned from the 4Q 2017 conference call that:
1. We would see the Model Y in concept from 3-6 months from now.
2. We would learn the manufacturing plans/location of the Model Y in 3-6 months from now.
3. Tesla hopes to make one million Model Y units per year.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4145865-tesla-model-y-factory-site-timing-production-competitive-landscape#alt2

Just think, Tesla can generate some needed cash flow by taking reservations on the Model Y when the concept
is announced, just like two years ago for the M3. How great would that be, easy money, right?

Announcing a 9 month delay to my SR M3 and then at the same time talking about their upcoming model was distasteful.

However, seeking alpha is so hateful of Tesla it takes good and throws in bad as well. For example in its list it considers the Jaguar i-pace a competitor to the MOdel y. I understand the model y to be a "cheap" crossover at a similar price point to the model 3, whereas the ipace is a $75k car, which means it competes with the x, not the y.

And I might find that reasonable we’re the duration of “runs” a week or two. But when the most basic configuration run is postponed a year, that isn’t driven by production speed concerns.

When we consider that the non-PUP model 3 consists of less parts than the PUP-equipped, and when we consider that the SR probably has more demand than the LR, if simply getting units out the door was tesla's concern they would probably stop producing the $49k variant now. The reason they are doing it is simply because it makes them more money.

I still need to see one of these cars in person to decide if I am keeping my reservation or not.

 

[lpickup]

I’ll agree that Tesla is the best over $45K BEV on the market today, and will add that the 2018 LEAF is the best under $45K BEV on the market today too.

In other words, nothing has really changed in the BEV market place.

Not really true.

One thing that's changed is the dollar amount. Well, it's kind of changed. Previously you would have said over/under $60K or even $70K (although yes, you could also have said $45K--you just happened to pick $45K because that's exactly where the bar is now. Why didn't you just say $30K?)

And the other point is whether the LEAF is the best under $45K. Why not the Bolt? Particularly since I just lost my first battery bar on my 2016 LEAF last week. After only 12.5K miles and about 13.5 months of ownership. I had REALLY hoped that Nissan fixed their battery chemistry problem, but apparently they did not. My 2012 LEAF at least made it to 25,600 before losing it's first bar. And I'm not in AZ either--it does get hot here in NC of course, but I would not say it's AZ hot! As much as I have loved all my LEAFs (despite their issues) for what they are, I really cannot call the LEAF the best example of an EV under $45K any more.

 

[Zythryn]

...
I still need to see one of these cars in person to decide if I am keeping my reservation or not.

Where are you located?

 

[edatoakrun]

Point being?..

That the model 3 is so poorly designed, it's funny.

Sorry you didn't get the joke.

No I don't get it, a 12V battery dies so what?...

If you're lucky enough to have it happen to your 3 in your garage, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMQsOC8EqIY

I can think of lots of worse places to find your 3 has locked you out, locked your 3 out of tow mode, and (if when plugged in) locked you to a charge cable, due to any 12 volt system failure.

As discussed on this thread, lots of places where it won't be funny at all...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-model-3-down-wont-power-up-and-is-inaccessible.108412/

Poor design, to make vehicle access dependent on the 12 volt system, especially so when considering TSLA's history of recurring 12 V system failures.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I wonder what a LEAF would cost if it was equipped like a SR M3, including the same autonomous hardware, same range, AND Nissan built out the same world wide SC network as Tesla, oh and included the same roadside support services, etc. My guess is it would be above the M3 pricing with all things equal, likely much more and probably not even viable today. Based on the culture and pricing models of companies like Nissan to do this would be a paradigm shift so great it would require a fundamental corporate shift. I’m not talking about farming out pieces to partner companies but doing it at the same in house level as Tesla.

I think there are many reasons people choose to support Tesla and their products and at so many levels they are different than any other car maker with the decision process less conventional and defined.

 

[edatoakrun]

... I think there are many reasons people choose to support Tesla and their products and at so many levels they are different than any other car maker with the decision process less conventional and defined.

The buy our lousy overpriced car "decision process" is probably "less conventional and defined" than used by most people when buying a car...

 

[EVDRIVER]

... I think there are many reasons people choose to support Tesla and their products and at so many levels they are different than any other car maker with the decision process less conventional and defined.

The buy our lousy overpriced car "decision process" is probably "less conventional and defined" than used by most people when buying a car...

That's why you get a choice. Clearly many people share your opinion based on the reservation list numbers. One could say a LEAF is overpriced when you consider range, the hidden costs of mass depreciation, battery degradation and lack of a SC network. It's all pretty subjective but the vast majority of the free market presently disagrees with you based on the overwhelming numbers. I guess you and Lorenfb can go around cherry picking FUD or start a new forum called "THC" the Tesla Haters Club, I'm confident you will get many posts there. I suggest consuming some THC however, it may help you see outside the charge box