Official Renault Zoe thread

[edatoakrun]

Renault says:

"ZOE is the only electric vehicle to feature the Chameleon charger. Patented by Renault, this charger is compatible with all power levels up to 43kW. Charging batteries at a charging station can take between 30 minutes and nine hours. For example, ZOE can be charged in an hour at 22kW. This intermediate power level extends battery life and puts less pressure on the power grid than the fast-charging of batteries at 43kW. Fast-charging stations are currently equipped with high-power chargers. Now that the Chameleon charger is fitted to the vehicle, there is no longer any need for chargers at charging stations. New fast-charging stations will be opened which are easier and more cost-effective. They will cost less than €3,000, a quarter of the cost of existing fast-charging stations."

http://blog.renault.com/en/2012/03/06/renault-zoe-quite-simply-revolutionary-and-yet-a-reality/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks pretty clear to me.

Not to me.

If it costs, as suggested above, about 9,000 Euro, additionally, for each fixed charger installation, how can it be so cheap, to put them in every BEV?

I've always expected cost and vehicle efficiency considerations to cause fast chargers to tend to evolve from "BEV located" to "station located", so that one costly DC charger could service dozens of BEV's, and the BEV is relieved of the weight and space burden, of carrying the fast charger in the vehicle.

 

[evnow]

So it has a built-in 43kW 3 phase charger?.. seems a bit too much

sorry but I don't have a problem with 80% charge in 30 minutes almost everywhere I stop from a Charging Station that costs less than £500... what's the issue for you?

I had not paid much attention to this - so this 43 kW charger will be in the car - and they still sell the car for a low price (battery is extra, ofcourse). This is quite amazing ... they are making a charger that is high power and cheap to manufacture.

 

[edward]

If it costs, as suggested above, about 9,000 Euro, additionally, for each fixed charger installation, how can it be so cheap, to put them in every BEV?

I've always expected cost and vehicle efficiency considerations to cause fast chargers to tend to evolve from "BEV located" to "station located", so that one costly DC charger could service dozens of BEV's, and the BEV is relieved of the weight and space burden, of carrying the fast charger in the vehicle.

Agreed, it sounds amazing. But that's what they say, so

I'm guessing that's what they call a "breakthrough" in power electronics. Plus mass production cost benefits of course. First toothpick in the toothpick factory is a 10 million dollar toothpick

 

[Herm]

I'm guessing that's what they call a "breakthrough" in power electronics. Plus mass production cost benefits of course. First toothpick in the toothpick factory is a 10 million dollar toothpick

It could be the old trick of re-purposing the inverter as a charger, AeroVinment patented that I think.

 

[KeiJidosha]

I'm guessing that's what they call a "breakthrough" in power electronics. Plus mass production cost benefits of course. First toothpick in the toothpick factory is a 10 million dollar toothpick

It could be the old trick of re-purposing the inverter as a charger, AeroVinment patented that I think.

I'm thinking ACP tZero

 

[suresnoi]

I am french an I've read the text in french.
It does state what you've understood indeed. The quick charger is in the car, allowing refill station to becom much cheaper, costing as low as 3000 euros.

What is not entirely clear though, is whether these 3000 euros stations allow a full 43kW charge on the car or the more conservative 22kW charge.

 

[Herm]

I'm thinking ACP tZero

Thanks, you are right..

 

[edatoakrun]

Well, If this report is acurate, I have to say Renault-Nissan (Nissan-Renault?) might be doing a less-than-perfect job of coordinating their infrastructure efforts.

I'd think, at least within Europe, they could coordinate and settle on a single (Chademo?/Chameleon?) charge station standard, for all their BEVs.

When I first saw this, I thought of it as a threat to Chademo in the US, but now am thinking about the many years (or decades) of procrastination and evaluation, by SAE and UL, that would be required, prior to any introduction, here...

 

[KevinSharpe]

What is not entirely clear though, is whether these 3000 euros stations allow a full 43kW charge on the car or the more conservative 22kW charge.

you can expect to see a 43kW Type 2 Charging Station below 600 Euros this year... nothing complicated or expensive about these products.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Well, If this report is acurate, I have to say Renault-Nissan (Nissan-Renault?) might be doing a less-than-perfect job of coordinating their infrastructure efforts.

Not at all... despite the alliance both companies are still developing independent EV's that test very different charging strategies for mass deployment... it's a very sensible strategy given the lack of any coherent charging standards.

 

[edatoakrun]

Well, If this report is acurate, I have to say Renault-Nissan (Nissan-Renault?) might be doing a less-than-perfect job of coordinating their infrastructure efforts.

Not at all... despite the alliance both companies are still developing independent EV's that test very different charging strategies for mass deployment... it's a very sensible strategy given the lack of any coherent charging standards.

Incoherent, yes.

Sensible, No.

But that's just my opinion. Perhaps there is an uber-corporate strategy to this, that I am missing...

 

[jkirkebo]

I must be missing the point. Who has a spare 180 amps lying around in their service panel?

180A @ 240V single phase won't help you, you'll only get ~15kW from that (63A @ 240V). You need 63A 400V three-phase to get the full 43kW (63A*400V*SQ(3)=43.6kW).

This is not for home use. At home one would (in Europe) normally use three-phase 16A 400V, giving ~11kW or a two-hour recharge from near empty to full.

 

[edward]

Well, If this report is acurate, I have to say Renault-Nissan (Nissan-Renault?) might be doing a less-than-perfect job of coordinating their infrastructure efforts.

I'd think, at least within Europe, they could coordinate and settle on a single (Chademo?/Chameleon?) charge station standard, for all their BEVs.

When CHADEMO was introduced the chameleon charger was still in development. Carlos Ghosn hinted that the engineers initially tried to delay the production of the LEAF due to technical considerations, and this could be one. Plus, the I-MIEV already launched with CHADEMO.

So it was probably a matter of starting with CHADEMO or waiting 3 years for the chameleon charger. Waiting 3 years probably wasn't an option if Renault-Nissan wanted to be ahead of the competition.

So we got two standards for the moment.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

180A @ 240V single phase won't help you, you'll only get ~15kW from that (63A @ 240V). You need 63A 400V three-phase to get the full 43kW (63A*400V*SQ(3)=43.6kW).

This is not for home use. At home one would (in Europe) normally use three-phase 16A 400V, giving ~11kW or a two-hour recharge from near empty to full.

Thanks for the response, although I don't understand, doesn't volts X amps = watts?

I have heard J1772 supports up to 80 amps. Would this chameleon thing do 19kW on 240V? Assuming you get heft the cable with #2 conductors to plug the damn thing in.

 

[KevinSharpe]

I have heard J1772 supports up to 80 amps. Would this chameleon thing do 19kW on 240V?

The IEC 62196 Type 2 ("mennekes") connector supports up to 250V 70A 1 Phase and 480V 63A 3 Phase;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#Type_2:_VDE-AR-E_2623-2-2

3 Phase is widely available in homes in mainland Europe with many everyday appliances such as ovens using it.

Today in the UK the ZOE can plug into a number of three phase Charging Stations at service stations available 24/7. Compare that with the limited number of CHAdeMO stations on the ground today.

Here's one vendor's 3 Phase Charging Station network;

http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-the-road/our-electric-highway

 

[jkirkebo]

180A @ 240V single phase won't help you, you'll only get ~15kW from that (63A @ 240V). You need 63A 400V three-phase to get the full 43kW (63A*400V*SQ(3)=43.6kW).

This is not for home use. At home one would (in Europe) normally use three-phase 16A 400V, giving ~11kW or a two-hour recharge from near empty to full.

Thanks for the response, although I don't understand, doesn't volts X amps = watts?

I have heard J1772 supports up to 80 amps. Would this chameleon thing do 19kW on 240V? Assuming you get heft the cable with #2 conductors to plug the damn thing in.

For single phase, watts=volt*amps. For three-phase you must use the voltage between the phases and multiply by the root of 3, or use the voltage between phase & neutral and multiply by 3. A 400V system has 400V between the phases and 230V phase to neutral. This can also be calculated, 400V*SQ(3)=230V...

I seriously doubt you'll get 19kW from an 80A EVSE with this charger, in all likelihood it will never draw more than 63A from any one phase. You will need a three-phase supply to fully utilize it.

 

[edatoakrun]

Well, If this report is acurate, I have to say Renault-Nissan (Nissan-Renault?) might be doing a less-than-perfect job of coordinating their infrastructure efforts.

I'd think, at least within Europe, they could coordinate and settle on a single (Chademo?/Chameleon?) charge station standard, for all their BEVs.

When CHADEMO was introduced the chameleon charger was still in development. Carlos Ghosn hinted that the engineers initially tried to delay the production of the LEAF due to technical considerations, and this could be one. Plus, the I-MIEV already launched with CHADEMO.

So it was probably a matter of starting with CHADEMO or waiting 3 years for the chameleon charger. Waiting 3 years probably wasn't an option if Renault-Nissan wanted to be ahead of the competition.

So we got two standards for the moment.

My point is, if a fast on-board charger is standard feature, on a car smaller and cheaper than a LEAF, wouldn't you expect Nissan to acquire the same feature, for all its future BEVs, in those markets that have charge infrastructure to support it?

It seems very strange to me, that what truly appears to be a "breakthrough" by Renault, is receiving so little comment.

 

[Herm]

It seems very strange to me, that what truly appears to be a "breakthrough" by Renault, is receiving so little comment.

we are all happy about the fast 7kW charger in the 2013 Leaf.. perhaps people think that is the sweet spot for home charging.

 

[edward]

My point is, if a fast on-board charger is standard feature, on a car smaller and cheaper than a LEAF, wouldn't you expect Nissan to acquire the same feature, for all its future BEVs, in those markets that have charge infrastructure to support it?

It seems very strange to me, that what truly appears to be a "breakthrough" by Renault, is receiving so little comment.

They may support it in future cars if Zoe sells nicely in Europe. However, Nissan is an independent company and Japan is filled to the brim with CHADEMO chargers. They may stick with that for quite a while.

Wouldn't make much of the commentary, journalists focus more on the fluff than substance.

 

[edatoakrun]

Well, this makes sense...

...Nissan, for one, has a detailed plan for bringing its new EV (LEAF) into full-scale production. At this week’s Geneva Motor Show, the company announced a list of measures to prepare the European market for higher volume leading up to the start of production in England in 2013....

Today the LEAF is on sale at 110 dealers in 14 markets across Europe. By the end of March 2013, that will grow to over 1,000 dealers in 24 markets, and all Nissan dealers will be equipped with charging stations.

Nissan’s own quick charger, which it launched in Europe In 2011, can charge any CHAdeMO-compliant vehicle to 80% capacity in 30 minutes. It’s also “AC ready” to support EVs from Renault that use 43-kW AC quick charge standards....

http://www.chargedevs.com/content/news-wire/post/nissan-announces-european-expansion-plans-leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately, the lack of a single standard is one of the most common FUD excuses I hear, for not putting in ANY fast chargers, here in California.

Maybe Nissan USA should announce that their USA chargers are designed to be able to also support SAE standards:

As soon as the SAE gets around to determining what they are...

And as soon as somebody builds a car that can use SAE DC charging...