Official California SDG&E Thread

[jcesare]

SDG&E is offering to pull a permit and do Electrical modifications to your house?

Or, after you have the work done be somebody (maybe EVProject), they will attach their meter to the meter-ring you had installed?

Any info on where the 2nd meter must be located, or how it must be wired in?

They just emailed me a pdf with the info:

How the Study Works
The study began January 1, 2011 and will run through the end of 2012. By qualifying for The EV Project you also have the opportunity to participate in this study. Unless you decline, SDG&E will install a second meter at no cost to you and randomly assign you an experimental rate approved by the California Public Utilities Commission. The second meter, installed by SDG&E, will
be connected to the electric vehicle charger installed by ECOtality. This meter will separately
measure the electricity used to charge your car. You’ll be billed for that electricity
on the experimental electric vehicle rate. All experimental rates will have a minimum bill
charge of $0.17 per day. Your household meter will continue to measure your household
electricity usage which will be billed on your existing residential rate.

Steps to Get Plug-In Ready
Here are the steps that SDG&E and ECOtality will take to help you get plug-in ready and
prepare for your participation in the study:
1. SDG&E will visit your home to identify
a location where your PEV meter can
be installed.
2. ECOtality’s contractor will obtain necessary
permits, install your vehicle charger, and
prepare a meter socket for the installation
of your PEV meter. ECOtality’s contractor
will also arrange for a city, or county,
inspection after this installation is completed.
3. The city, or county, will notify SDG&E when
the installation has passed final inspection.
4. After the installation is inspected and
approved, SDG&E will install the separate PEV
meter into the new meter socket. The meter
is usually installed within 1-2 business days
after the final inspection has been approved.
5. Near the time your PEV meter is installed,
SDG&E will contact you to describe how
Time-of-Use (TOU) rates work and how you
can best save money while charging your plug-in electric vehicle.

 

[lonndoggie]

I just got a call from an SDG&E rep reading a script congratulating me about getting an EV and wanting to install a 2nd meter as part of the EV project. They are sending me the info and I have a week to decide if I want it. Any good reason for not installing a 2nd meter? Am I correct to assume that the TOU would only apply to the 2nd meter or will both be subject to TOU?

The PDF you got in an email, we got via snail mail (we missed the phone call, got a message on the machine).

As far as getting one or not, for most folks it's likely a good deal. Various factors come in to play:

• It's a good deal if you're going to charge at night--doing so with the second meter will get you electrons at the lowest rate. Charging other times it gets pricey.
• It's a good deal if you're already in the third or fourth tier on your bill. The car will only add more high-priced consumption to your existing bill.
• It's not such a good deal if your usage is already really low--like in the first tier, and you can figure the car won't push you up into the third tier.

We've got a pv array, but it's not enough to cover our usage year 'round (we're net ahead a few months, but in the third tier for a few as well), and we're going for the second meter and late-night fill-ups.

I think Jimmydreams posted something to the effect that sdg&e will include the second meter in the true-up calculation (he didn't say that exactly, but that's the gist I got out of it).

 

[wsbca]

I think Jimmydreams posted something to the effect that sdg&e will include the second meter in the true-up calculation (he didn't say that exactly, but that's the gist I got out of it).

Nope - they won't. They are two different accounts. To "true up" with excess PV production you've got to do it on your own, ie pay for the EV power, then reimburse yourself later by collecting the AB920 payment.

 

[Jimmydreams]

I think Jimmydreams posted something to the effect that sdg&e will include the second meter in the true-up calculation (he didn't say that exactly, but that's the gist I got out of it).

Nope - they won't. They are two different accounts. To "true up" with excess PV production you've got to do it on your own, ie pay for the EV power, then reimburse yourself later by collecting the AB920 payment.

wsbca is correct. They bill me separately for my EV meter. The only way my EV meter affects my net metering is SDG&E will subtract the kWhs shown on my EV meter from my main house meter (because I've paid for those kWhs separately throughout the year).

Main Meter + solar generation (which is a negative number since my meter spins backwards) - EV meter = net metering
EV meter gets billed separately.

 

[lonndoggie]

wsbca is correct. They bill me separately for my EV meter. The only way my EV meter affects my net metering is SDG&E will subtract the kWhs shown on my EV meter from my main house meter (because I've paid for those kWhs separately throughout the year).

Color me confused.

If the house and EV are separate, then indeed they should work as wsbca describes; you pay for whatever the EV meter says, and at the end of the year, you get back the (as yet to be defined) over-generation refund for your PV system.

If, however, they are subtracting the kWhs of the EV system from your pv generation, then isn't that paying for at least part of the EV meter's bill? And, if so, that certainly is affecting your true-up total at the end of the year, as it's been reduced by the amount used to credit your EV meter account.

And if not--if you're paying a separate bill for the 100% of the usage reported by the EV meter--then why are they reducing your PV generation by what you used via the EV meter?

I'm sure the "a-ha" moment is coming, via your next reply.

PS--I'm still looking for your Leaf every trip to Costco...

 

[garygid]

Main meter reads 15 kWh one month and -7 (7 kWh of over generation) the next.
EV meter reads 11 the first month and 9 the next, and the EV account is billed for 11 usage one month and 9 kWh usage the second.

The "House" account is billed for +15 - 11 = 4 kWh the first month and for -7 - 9 = -16 (16 kWh of over-generation) the 2nd month.

Do both accounts get their own baseline (Tier 1) kWh amount?

 

[SanDust]

And if not--if you're paying a separate bill for the 100% of the usage reported by the EV meter--then why are they reducing your PV generation by what you used via the EV meter?

There is no difference between the following three calculations:

Net Metering = Amount Used By House - Amount Generated By PV System
Net Metering = Amount Used by House + Amount Used By EV - Amount Generated By PV System - Amount Used By EV
Net Metering = Amount Used by House - Amount Generated By PV System + Amount Used By EV - Amount Used By EV

The amount used by the EV gets added to the main meter since it's a draw. Then, since it's already been paid for, it gets subtracted out, leaving the exact same net metering calculation as you'd get in the absence of an EV meter.

 

[garygid]

SD,
Well stated.

 

[sdbonez]

GroundLoop tried the condensed version (e.g., just get a 2nd meter). For my perspective, he's right. I keep wanting to draft the massive mathematical backup but it's just too much and I've spent too much time over-thinking this... so here are some highlights (really, this is the short version ). It's specific to SDG&E in San Diego, CA.

My circumstances:

• 
  *PV system on a DR rate.
  *I have some surplus generation about 4-5 months out of the year
  *I'll be charging my leaf in super off-peak time (12am-5am)
  *I may be able to charge at work for free (if there's an EVSE available)

They key for me is that I currently get paid ~13.4 cents/kwh for surplus...but if I just use a standard EV-TOU 2nd meter today (no EV Project) for EV charging, I would pay ~14.5 cents/kwh. To me, that's a wash (based on my usage, ~$5.54/month difference). That's worst case based on the EV-TOU rate (no EV Project)... but it's going to be better. The reason is that I'll be on one of three experimental rates as part of the EV Project through the end of 2012. Averages for the experimental rates (super off-peak) are: ~14.1 cents/kwh for EPEV-L, ~7.9 cents/kwh for EPEV-M, and ~6.9 cents/kwh for EPEV-H.

So, look at it this way. As part of the EV Project:

• 
  *When I have surplus, I get paid ~13.4 cents/kwh
  *If I don't use the surplus to charge my EV, and charge my EV on a 2nd meter instead, I pay between ~6.9 cents/kwh and ~14.1 cents/kwh to charge the EV during the EV Project (or ~14.5 cents/kwh after the EV Project subject to the EV-TOU rate changing)
  *So, if I'm on EPEV-M or EPEV-H, I *MAKE MONEY* by piping my surplus back into the grid at the Tier 1 DR rate and charging my EV on the experimental rate.
  *Even if I get on EPEV-L, it's still probably cheaper because I do dip into Tier 2 DR rates now and then..and with an EV, would dip into Tier 3 which is *easily* higher than EPEV-L's super off-peak rate.

Result - I'm getting a 2nd meter because:

• 
  *I don't have to pay for it (and chances are, the EV Project experimental rate will make me money)
  *It gives me flexibility (again, still not sure how realistic it'll be that I can charge at work, for instance)
  *If I'm not using it at the end of the EV Project, SDG&E said they'll remove it (put a blank in) for free.
  *I can always Level-1 charge to tap into the home’s/PV’s surplus on DR at whatever my Tier is (or if I need to charge in peak, etc.)
  *The finances are ~a wash for me (and if things change...more expensive TOU rate, whatever, I can always refer to #3 above)

Hope that helps some folks...use what's relevant to you; toss the rest

-Mike

Helpful link:

• Current EV Project Experimental rates (and other residential rates): http://www.sdge.com/environment/cleantransportation/evRates.shtml

 

[lonndoggie]

There is no difference between the following three calculations...

I think the light just came on, as I was typing a reply to the above (still unclear on how these seemingly divergent explanations can describing the same thing).

See if this is it:

The EV meter is in series with the first--e.g., every kWh run up on the EV meter is also rung up on the main house meter. Now THAT would make sense. Somehow, it never occurred to me that it'd be rigged up like that.

'Zat it?

 

[lonndoggie]

Main meter reads 15 kWh one month and -7 (7 kWh of over generation) the next.
EV meter reads 11 the first month and 9 the next, and the EV account is billed for 11 usage one month and 9 kWh usage the second.

The "House" account is billed for +15 - 11 = 4 kWh the first month and for -7 - 9 = -16 (16 kWh of over-generation) the 2nd month.

Given my new-found understanding, yes.

Do both accounts get their own baseline (Tier 1) kWh amount?

Only the house has a baseline amount, if it's on a standard tiered plan. If it's on a DR-SES TOU plan, then like the EV meter, there is no baseline, no tiers; the kWh's used by the EV should be subtracted out of the corresponding DR-SES TOU totals.

 

[wsbca]

They key for me is that I currently get paid ~13.4 cents/kwh for surplus

Mike - when you say you get "paid" this amount, are you saying (predicting) you'll get this in cash at true-up due to an AB920 payment for annual excess raw kWh generation [the rate for which, as far as I know, has not be decided yet and is anticipated to be significantly less than the retail tier 1 rate you are quoting]....

or do you mean you accumulate net metering generation credit that you can use (at that same rate) against your bill in the months that you do not overproduce?

When you say you overproduce some months of the year, I interpret that to mean you don't overproduce over the course of an entire year, so I suspect you are talking about the latter scenario. And I agree that for those with PV offsetting some but not all of (or more than) their annual house usage, the 2 meters and the cheap super off-peak rate are definitely the way to go. In our case we have significant excess generation (by design) beyond our house usage, and to use that effectively for the car we are doing it all on one meter, since the AB920 payment we would get for that raw (annual) excess is not likely to be more than the super off peak EV rate. If we do fall behind on generation our next step would be to go to DR-SES to use higher priced generation credits to get more car charging...which really only makes sense since we don't use our AC very much, so our PV should generate significant credits during peak.

 

[lonndoggie]

They key for me is that I currently get paid ~13.4 cents/kwh for surplus

Mike - when you say you get "paid" this amount, are you saying (predicting) you'll get this in cash at true-up due to an AB920 payment for annual excess raw kWh generation [the rate for which, as far as I know, has not be decided yet and is anticipated to be significantly less than the retail tier 1 rate you are quoting]....

or do you mean you accumulate net metering generation credit that you can use (at that same rate) against your bill in the months that you do not overproduce?

Another way that could be taken is if he's going to use DR-SES--surplus generated during the day gets subtracted from the cost of electricity used at night, which AFAIK done in the realm of dollars--e.g., your 5kWh of surplus at (say) $.25/kWh gets you $1.25 credit against 6kWh used at night at (say) $.14, or $.84 -- thus your daytime surplus wiped out your nighttime bill (but only down to zero--pretty sure they won't give you a $ credit for this).

I'm guessing...well, this is all conjecture, based on what I can glean from SDG&E's somewhat hand-wavy descriptions...that any surplus generated during the day that is left over after you've zeroed out your other consumption would then go into your true-up balance.

I'm thinking about DR-SES, but I need to collect some data about our actual usage across the different rate times.

 

[ENIAC]

Don't forget to reset your charging schedule on your LEAF on Saturday night.

Extended Daylight Saving Time Peak Periods

The peak time periods from March 13 through April 2 and October 30 through November 5 for customers on Schedule EV-TOU and all Schedule EPEV are the following:

On-Peak: 1 p.m. – 9 p.m. Daily
Super Off-Peak: 1 a.m. – 6 a.m. Daily
Off-Peak: All Other Hours

http://www.sdge.com/residential/dst/evTOU.shtml

 

[sdbonez]

They key for me is that I currently get paid ~13.4 cents/kwh for surplus

Mike - when you say you get "paid" this amount, are you saying (predicting) you'll get this in cash at true-up due to an AB920 payment for annual excess raw kWh generation [the rate for which, as far as I know, has not be decided yet and is anticipated to be significantly less than the retail tier 1 rate you are quoting]....

or do you mean you accumulate net metering generation credit that you can use (at that same rate) against your bill in the months that you do not overproduce?

I was previously paid monthly under SDG&E's old NEM program at the Tier 1 rate even before the AB920 came along and provided for an 'annual' true up period. Now that I'm past the beginning of my true-up period (and am under the AB920 legislation timeline), I continue to receive the same monthly net-metering statement I've always received from SDG&E but now it has an AB920 statement on the bottom. It still provides a monthly negative dollar figure that I'm credited in each month that I have a surplus and a monthly positive dollar figure for each month that I don't. It's just a ledger which applies the negative dollars to the positive dollars. Come the end of the year, if it's positive, I owe...if it's negative, they cut me a check. Either way, I'm still 'paid' the Tier 1 rate for surplus in any month that I have one.

When you say you overproduce some months of the year, I interpret that to mean you don't overproduce over the course of an entire year, so I suspect you are talking about the latter scenario.

Previously, when I was doing a month-to-month true up, I was actually paid a credit to my account each month I over-produced. Now, you are correct, on an annual true up, I always owe because net, I'm still using more than I'm producing... but regardless, I'm still paid a credit in the months in which I over-produce against the year's annual bill. (I still pay that monthly, but that's irrelevant at the end of the day).

And I agree that for those with PV offsetting some but not all of (or more than) their annual house usage, the 2 meters and the cheap super off-peak rate are definitely the way to go. In our case we have significant excess generation (by design) beyond our house usage, and to use that effectively for the car we are doing it all on one meter, since the AB920 payment we would get for that raw (annual) excess is not likely to be more than the super off peak EV rate. If we do fall behind on generation our next step would be to go to DR-SES to use higher priced generation credits to get more car charging...which really only makes sense since we don't use our AC very much, so our PV should generate significant credits during peak.

If what I'm saying is correct (and I haven't found out that I'm wrong, but maybe I still am??!?!) -- because it appears that the annual true-up is still broken out monthly on the net metering statement, if your 2nd meter/super off-peak rate is cheaper than price you'll get (monthly) for your surplus, it's actually cheaper for you to charge on the 2nd meter, experimental rate because otherwise, the cost of charging your EV on our 1st meter/DR feed is equivalent to the Tier1 payment you would have otherwise received for that surplus generation. Maybe it's different if it's a full annual true-up but I haven't seen that yet (could just be missing it).

Notice I say cheaper. If you're interested in cash, pumping energy into the grid and getting paid more for it than the money you're taking out on the 2nd meter is the way to go. If you're interested in using your specific energy going for your use even if it costs more, the second option is the way to go.

To your second point, yeah, that's my primary issue with DR-SES. 2x3ton AC units that are used by the wife during the days (and it's often hot inland combined with a general addiction we have to AC )

The only other item that comes to mind is whether with significant generation above the monthly baseline (e.g., ~330kwh/month in excess) would you get paid a Tier 2 rate on your surplus. I believe I've heard the answer is 'no' but don't know of anyone generating that kind of surplus since most homeowners only targeted getting into Tier2 territory consistently from a system sizing perspective.

 

[sdbonez]

They key for me is that I currently get paid ~13.4 cents/kwh for surplus

Mike - when you say you get "paid" this amount, are you saying (predicting) you'll get this in cash at true-up due to an AB920 payment for annual excess raw kWh generation [the rate for which, as far as I know, has not be decided yet and is anticipated to be significantly less than the retail tier 1 rate you are quoting]....

or do you mean you accumulate net metering generation credit that you can use (at that same rate) against your bill in the months that you do not overproduce?

Another way that could be taken is if he's going to use DR-SES--surplus generated during the day gets subtracted from the cost of electricity used at night, which AFAIK done in the realm of dollars--e.g., your 5kWh of surplus at (say) $.25/kWh gets you $1.25 credit against 6kWh used at night at (say) $.14, or $.84 -- thus your daytime surplus wiped out your nighttime bill (but only down to zero--pretty sure they won't give you a $ credit for this).

I'm guessing...well, this is all conjecture, based on what I can glean from SDG&E's somewhat hand-wavy descriptions...that any surplus generated during the day that is left over after you've zeroed out your other consumption would then go into your true-up balance.

I'm thinking about DR-SES, but I need to collect some data about our actual usage across the different rate times.

Yeah, I was hoping to get this from my smart meter when they installed it..but I've since discovered that SDG&E doesn't support google power meter for PV Customers...so I'm back to manual monthly meter reads vs. anything with a TOU flavor. That's still the main reason I'm on plain-old DR w/net metering.

Do you guys get the monthly statements I'm talking about? In 2009/mid-2010, I received monthly credits and still see the same credits on the same statements. In other words, there's no mystery about what I'm being paid under AB920 since SDG&E was already paying me. (I'm pretty sure I recall that some utilities refused to pay at all which is why AB920 came into existence..but for SDG&E customers, it just meant that it could be trued up annually with monthly breakouts vs. monthly). Maybe I should just go read AB920

 

[supernoman]

So I have SDGE coming out to my Condo tomorrow to do an evaluation on the second meter install. I am in a 5 unit condo and the meter is on the opposite side of the building to my unit. Has anyone had any experience with a second meter SDGE install in a condo unit?
I'm afraid I won't be able to get the second meter installed.

 

[ENIAC]

So I have SDGE coming out to my Condo tomorrow to do an evaluation on the second meter install. I am in a 5 unit condo and the meter is on the opposite side of the building to my unit. Has anyone had any experience with a second meter SDGE install in a condo unit?
I'm afraid I won't be able to get the second meter installed.

The second meter would be installed next to the existing meters. Its the 240V circuit which would need to be pulled to where the EVSE needs to be located. In a condo I would think the pulling of the circuit would be the big deal do to right of way, etc.

 

[DaveEV]

I got a call from SDG&E today to talk about and confirm that I want the EV meter (followed by an email w/subject "Plug-In Electric Vehicle Time-of-Use Pricing Study"). Hopefully this means that things are moving along for me!

Anyone else get a call from them recently?

 

[lonndoggie]

I got a call from SDG&E today to talk about and confirm that I want the EV meter (followed by an email w/subject "Plug-In Electric Vehicle Time-of-Use Pricing Study"). Hopefully this means that things are moving along for me!

Anyone else get a call from them recently?

Right, see above in this thread where jcesare got a call and email. We also got call and snail mail (they don't have my email address?!?!).

April is getting close. My 9 year old hope we get the Leaf on his 10th birthday, April 26th. That would be nice, but I hope we get it sooner.