Official California PG&E Thread

[EVDRIVER]

I went ahead and ordered E9A. We'll see how it goes. So far no word from PG&E about when it will be installed but another Leaf buyer I know has already changed his house over to that rate. I don't think he has his first bill yet, though. If the meter isn't installed before 11/1 I won't be subject to peak rates until May. I am currently only slightly into Tier 2. If I can stay under Tier 3 I'll be saving money on the whole house even before I get the Leaf delivered. Off peak even Tier 3 rates are barely higher than my regular rate now, so I don't see how I can lose. I don't expect to have trouble recharging off peak, but we'll see. If I find that to be a problem, I can probably switch with my wife on days when I plan to go more than 20 miles, as she almost never drives that far.

E9 seems better than E6, the payout on solar is a penny or two less in the day but the evening rates are much better so even without an EV I should be better off.

 

[gudy]

Rat,

I had the same questions as you, and went ahead, downloaded (week by week) my hourly usage from PGE for the past year, and simulated their billing structure in an excel spreadsheet.
I'm already over the base allowance in the winter months (we used a small portable heater for the kids bedroom ... won't replicate that mistake )

...

on E9A I would have saved about $130 , or, the equivalent of charging the leaf for about 6000 miles.
the next 6000 miles I might drive per year, will cost me the same $130 amount.

I even did a simulation if I was charging the Leaf battery from 0 to 100% every night, and it's still (relatively) cheap.

it seems as if PGE is actually selling electricity at a loss during off-peak hours (I guess because it's still better than not selling any). (at least 5 cents is bellow any number I've seen in terms of costs of producing electricity, and that doesn't account for distribution).

The way I see my case :

I buy a Leaf, I change to E9A, and I get 6000 FREE miles of gas, EVERY YEAR.

you can't beat that !

 

[cinmar]

I also plugged my info into the Excel spreadsheet (linked elsewhere on the forum) to compare rate structures. Our 4.9 kw PV panels are going up this week. I considered switching to TOU, but we have a pretty large Koi pond with pumps that have to run 24/7, so that alone sort of blew it for TOU. On top of that, my husband is home on Mondays and I'm home every other Friday. We have a new baby, so with laundry, dishes and potentially running the HVAC during some weekdays, TOU just didn't make sense. We try our hardest to do that sort of stuff in the evening, but with both of us working full time and a baby, sometimes we don't have a choice. We've bought the most energy efficient pump we could find for the Koi, but it still adds up.

 

[planet4ever]

I went ahead and ordered E9A. We'll see how it goes. So far no word from PG&E about when it will be installed but another Leaf buyer I know has already changed his house over to that rate. I don't think he has his first bill yet, though. If the meter isn't installed before 11/1 I won't be subject to peak rates until May. I am currently only slightly into Tier 2. If I can stay under Tier 3 I'll be saving money on the whole house even before I get the Leaf delivered. Off peak even Tier 3 rates are barely higher than my regular rate now, so I don't see how I can lose. I don't expect to have trouble recharging off peak, but we'll see. If I find that to be a problem, I can probably switch with my wife on days when I plan to go more than 20 miles, as she almost never drives that far.

It's nice that E9 Tier 2 rates are the same as Tier 1 rates, but the catch is that Tier 2 is very narrow, only 30% of baseline. If your baseline is anything like mine, just 15 miles a day on the LEAF will push you at least as far into Tier 3 as you currently are into Tier 2.

[My baseline is 12.6kWh winter, so 3.78kWh/day for Tier 2. Figuring 4 miles/kWh, that's 15 miles, and 4 miles/kWh may be high.]

 

[Rat]

We used to have a pool (for people, not koi), but when the kids moved out we got rid of it. Our electric bill went down $50/mo just from the pumps (filter and pool sweep). We have an advantage in that we don't have or need A/C in the house. We're on the west side and the house is very well insulated. We just open it up at night or early in the morning, then close it up tight during the day and draw the blinds. On the hottest days inside it goes from 64 degrees in the morning or so up to maybe 80 in the evening, but by that time we can open up all the windows again and get a cool cross breeze. My wife does cook dinner for us most of the time, but we often barbecue during the summer, so I think our peak usage won't be all that high compared to many others. We're both home during the day most days of the week, so we can do laundry outside peak hours. The fridge is about the only significant power hog that must run during peak times. Our furnace will start kicking on soon, but by then the peak season will be over. I don't think the TV or computers are major power gobblers, but maybe I'm wrong. No doubt there will be a learning curve, and we're used to adjusting our lifestyles to be environmentally responsible and not wasteful.

 

[GeorgeParrott]

We just this past month had our annual "true up" tally with PG&E. Once you have a solar PV system, you basically do not pay anything monthly other than a "connect fee (about $12/month)" and then settle up at the end of each service year from the time of your PV install.

We PRODUCED 1200kW more than we used last year. This gave us a theoretical credit with PG&E of $438. Too bad they don't actually have to pay us this and those wonderful folks at PG&E are proposing to reimburse at a flat rate of $.08/kW rather than the billing credit rate created by the combination of production/use across the various TOU charge times.

We are now switched to the E9 rate structure as we await the arrival of both the Leaf AND the Volt. I project that even with both EVs in the garage and charging in the midnight to 7 am time frame, we will still have a CREDIT with the "wonderful utility company" at the end of each true up cycle. Our 5.5kW Solar PV system is thus saving us about $3000/year in basic electricity cost AND further will be saving us another about $1500 a year in "fuel costs" compared to our current two Toyota hybrids.

Go SOLAR and get a big enough system to actually wipe out your regular utility costs. We even have a solar hot water system, and our annual natural gas billing totals something like $280-310 per year.

 

[cinmar]

Speaking of solar water heating - does anyone have an opinion on solar heaters vs. tankless? We're thinking of getting an electric tankless water heater, 1) so it could rely on our PV panels for juice instead of gas, and 2) because we want to remodel and move the tank from our existing laundry room into the kitchen along with the washer and dryer (the laundry room would turn into something else). With tankless, the size is very appealing.

 

[DeaneG]

Speaking of solar water heating - does anyone have an opinion on solar heaters vs. tankless?...

I looked into tankless the last time I replaced a water heater. There were three main issues to think about: 1) exhaust vent run to the outside, 2) didn't have enough instantaneous heating capacity for say 2 showers and a washing machine at the same time 3) minimum flow rate required to turn it on and start heating.

But I'm sure they are an excellent fit in many situations.

 

[DaveEV]

We're thinking of getting an electric tankless water heater, 1) so it could rely on our PV panels for juice instead of gas, and 2) because we want to remodel and move the tank from our existing laundry room into the kitchen along with the washer and dryer (the laundry room would turn into something else). With tankless, the size is very appealing.

Tankless is nice because of the size - but you need a LOT of power for them. We're talking 80-120A circuit here for an electric model. That's like running 3-4 electric dryers at the same time. So if you're going tankless, IMO, I think it makes more sense to use gas.

Now, if you do want to go electric for your water heating, you need to look into one of the heat-pump water heaters. These are 2-3x more efficient than a regular electric water heater and will be more efficient than the tankless electric water heater. There's a couple retrofits that let you convert an existing water heater into a heat pump (look for Geyser).

 

[Rat]

My parents put solar heating panels on the roof of their condo and a tank in the attic. The rrof leaked and the HOA wouldn't fix it because it was non-standard. The solar co. came back and more or less fixed it, but it still leaked some time. When I took over the condo I had it all ripped out as it wasn't working any longer andyway and the contractor said the tank was too heavy for the joists. This condo suffered major damage in the Loma Prieta quake. So I don't recommend them.

The instant on tankless heaters work great. I knew a couple living in Europe where they are common, and when we visited we loved them, but when we looked into getting them, they were very expensive. You have to have several of them if your house is larger than a dollhouse. 3 bathrooms, kitchen, utility area.

 

[Rat]

I talked to the PG&E rep at the test drive tour today. I told her I had sent in the form requesting the switch to rate E9A about 10 days ago and hadn't heard anything yet about when the meter would be installed or the rate change would go into effect. She seemed surprised and said she would look at my account on Monday and call me. She also said that starting 11/1 (Monday) the EV program would be shifted from HQ to the local offices. I'm not sure if that one 800 number will continue to work or whether you get transferred, but I suspect there will be more inconsistencies and misinformation when it gets rolled out and you have dozens of different reps handling it. It will be new to them so there will be a learning curve.

 

[EVDRIVER]

We're thinking of getting an electric tankless water heater, 1) so it could rely on our PV panels for juice instead of gas, and 2) because we want to remodel and move the tank from our existing laundry room into the kitchen along with the washer and dryer (the laundry room would turn into something else). With tankless, the size is very appealing.

Tankless is nice because of the size - but you need a LOT of power for them. We're talking 80-120A circuit here for an electric model. That's like running 3-4 electric dryers at the same time. So if you're going tankless, IMO, I think it makes more sense to use gas.

Now, if you do want to go electric for your water heating, you need to look into one of the heat-pump water heaters. These are 2-3x more efficient than a regular electric water heater and will be more efficient than the tankless electric water heater. There's a couple retrofits that let you convert an existing water heater into a heat pump (look for Geyser).

Tankless water heaters are great, they are all I use at home, a gas Tokagi. Electric tankless heaters are complete power hogs and will kill your solar benefit in no time, they are very inefficient. Unless you have a huge 10Kw solar array go with a gas model, they are far better.

 

[Ready2plugin]

I was at the drive event today in San Jose and talked the the reps from PG&E. According to them, because I have a PV system, I MUST install a second meter with it's own junction box before I get the LEAF!! My wonderful quote from AV did not have that! Now I must go from an easy install to one that will require I lot more money to do. My main box is on the far side of the house away from the garage, so instead of using my secondary panel that's in the garage and all set to go for the install, I'm stuck back to square one....plus I paid AV for a worthless quote! :x

 

[planet4ever]

I was at the drive event today in San Jose and talked the the reps from PG&E. According to them, because I have a PV system, I MUST install a second meter with it's own junction box before I get the LEAF!!

Frankly, you got bad advice. I have scoured the PG&E tariffs and website pretty thoroughly and I have never seen anything like that. I have seen statements that you must go to an E9 schedule, even though several people have reported that PG&E doesn't seem interested in enforcing that. But even if you do have to go to E9, you have the choice of E9a - one meter for the whole house - or E9b - a separate meter for the LEAF.

If you have a PV system, E9a will probably work reasonably well for you.

You want proof that what they told you is nonsense? In San Francisco, and several other northern California cities, you are not allowed to have a second meter. Is PG&E going to be able to tell everyone in San Francisco that they can't use a Level 2 EVSE if they have a solar electric system? No way!

 

[Spies]

This is just thinking out loud but if you have solar and you are already on the E7 or E6 rate and you don't feel the E9 rate would be a benefit to you after getting the LEAF why would you even tell PG&E that you have the car?

 

[Ready2plugin]

I'm still on E1, my solar rep told me not to change, but now I think that was bad advise as well. I asked if I could go on the E9a with my PV system and he said without a doubt (in his mind I guess) that the answer was no. I would have to go to E9b and install the second meter. I did tell him that I was still on E1 and lived in Pleasanton, but did not give any other info.

 

[Spies]

I asked if I could go on the E9a with my PV system and he said without a doubt (in his mind I guess) that the answer was no. I would have to go to E9b and install the second meter.

This is very discouraging information if true.

I went on the E9a single meter rate myself for a number of reasons. Looking back I am not even sure if adding a second meter would have even been possible for me and even if it was adding another meter would have been cost prohibitive, frustrating and probably would not have even passed the association approval process. Another reason for me after doing the math at the time was that having the whole house on E9 was actually a benefit. If you are wondering I do not have air conditioning and my water and furnace run on gas.

I am now considering adding solar to my townhouse but if PG&E forces me to install another meter for the LEAF as a result I don't think it will work out for me as the same issues would come up. I certainly don't want the reason I don't have solar to be because I bought an electric car!

 

[leaf561]

I asked if I could go on the E9a with my PV system and he said without a doubt (in his mind I guess) that the answer was no. I would have to go to E9b and install the second meter.

Even I have solar and I had called up PG&E regarding this. I was told I could stay with my E6 (if I want) or move to E9a or E9b. He did recommend E9b over E9a, but that was because with E9a it would require me to change my lifestyle. With E9a, it makes more sense to run your dishwasher and laundry after mid-night (if you want to get benefit of the low rate and compensate the high price you will be paying during peak hours). While, E9b also gives me a new baseline allowance.

I am going to the test drive today at San Jose. I will also trying to get some clarification from the onsite PG&E folks (if they are there)

 

[leaf561]

Just came back from the test drive at San Jose. Talked with the PG&E folks over there. I got very contradicting information from them.

First of all, they say that E9a meter doesn't rotate backwards and can't be used with solar. Which doesn't make sense, because the PG&E person I talked over the phone, didn't say that would be an issue for.

Also they were answering like an attorney for all my questions related to second meter. They say it is between me and the city to decide what sort of a setup is needed at my house. Whether I would need trenching or splitting or connection via main meter, etc. Pretty much they were non committal to any of my questions.

They gave a number to call. I will call next week and try to get more information.

 

[planet4ever]

I'm still on E1, my solar rep told me not to change, but now I think that was bad advise as well.

It seems unlikely that E1 would be better than E6 unless you have a very small solar array and high weekday afternoon usage. For starters, six months out of the year ("winter") the E6 rates are lower than the E1 rates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, regardless of what tier you are in.

The only time E6 rates are a lot higher is the Peak hours, 1-7 PM Mon-Fri, during the "summer" half of the year, and that is when your PV is cranking out much of its power. Like many PV owners, we generate more power than we use during that time slot, so PG&E pays us the high rate, 30 cents (or more) per kWh!

The summer E6 rates are 3c/kWh higher for "Partial peak" hours and 3c/hour lower for "Off peak" hours, but there are 127 Off peak hours per week and only 31 Partial peak hours per week. So unless you concentrate your summer electric usage heavily between 10 AM - 1 PM weekdays, 7-9 PM weekdays, and 5-8 PM weekends, you also win on that balancing act. (Is it that hard to run the electric dryer before 10 AM or after 9 PM on weekdays?)

When it comes to E6 vs. E9 the choice is not so clear. E9 Peak times don't match PV output nearly as well as E6, but E9 Off peak rates are even lower than E6. You will need to do your own analysis to see which is better for you, assuming PG&E lets you have a choice.