Official California PG&E Thread

[Ready2plugin]

To my knowledge, the kV2cs net meter I have for net-E9a must be read by a person in a truck. The newer smartmeters are read remotely by their RF connection.

When I first had a smartmeter, it would "spin backwards" due to my solar production but this did not get reported to PG&E correctly. I think there must have been a software update recently to make smartmeters work properly in a net-metering situation.

About smartmeter safety - PG&E's operate at around 900MHz, the same as cell phones and many cordless phones, and at roughly similar power levels as these devices. If you have a microwave oven in your home, use a mobile phone or iPad (even with a bluetooth or wired extension), or any cordless phone, or wifi router, etc, you should probably be more worried about those, since you'll stand closer to them. My own estimate is that none of these appreciably affect my biology, certainly far less than the hazard of a drive to work, a glass of wine, or a doughnut (gasp!).

So for those people who don't want a smartmeter installed in their house because they are concerned about health issues - fine, but they should eliminate the other "intentional radiators" first, stop eating the occasional grilled hamburger or doughnut, and probably stop driving.

I agree 100%. I was not supporting the theory of the heath issues, but PG&E might be slowing things down until they can address and FUD that might be out there.

 

[csriram45]

I should have read the updates here before I called PGE. I called them and the mentioned that I will have to wait for my Leaf before I can swtich to E9a. The rep "Joe" did tell me that since I had a smart meter even though the paper work is slow since it can read by the hour the can bill me accordingly based on the day the switch over happened. I thought that was reasonable.

Now I read that there is a "different" smart meter for E9a rate? Is my understanding correct? If that is the case I assume that will cause significant delay?

 

[Spies]

I was told that my E9a smartmeter does track everything by the hour, but does not transmit the information automatically to PG&E, so I cannot track it on their website.

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually have a SmartMeter™ installed and not just a time of use meter. I'm sure I am stating the obvious when I say that one of the main points of a SmartMeter™ is that PG&E no longer has to send out a meter reader. Since they will no longer have to send out a meter reader once I the SmartMeter™ is installed they will no longer bill for the daily meter charge.

I currently have a Schlumberger MT200 TOU meter and DeaneG mentioned he had a GE KV2CS TOU meter. These meters might be "smart" but they are certainly not a SmartMeter™

So what meter model do you have?

 

[csriram45]

So after reading I called PGE again about the SmartMeter and was told the SmartMeter I have will not be required to change. I was however asked to Submit an application because I am installing at 240V EVSE. They said this is to ensure that my new load will not affect their service and neighbors service etc.

Anyone else had to go through this? Is it safe to do that? My home is relatively new (2007). My install is straight forward as far as I know for the installation of EVSE so I am just not sure what this application is about..

Update: I guess this is the application all about.
http://www.pge.com/myhome/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/installationprocess/

 

[Ready2plugin]

I was told that my E9a smartmeter does track everything by the hour, but does not transmit the information automatically to PG&E, so I cannot track it on their website.

I'm beginning to wonder if you actually have a SmartMeter™ installed and not just a time of use meter. I'm sure I am stating the obvious when I say that one of the main points of a SmartMeter™ is that PG&E no longer has to send out a meter reader. Since they will no longer have to send out a meter reader once I the SmartMeter™ is installed they will no longer bill for the daily meter charge.

I currently have a Schlumberger MT200 TOU meter and DeaneG mentioned he had a GE KV2CS TOU meter. These meters might be "smart" but they are certainly not a SmartMeter™

So what meter model do you have?

You are probably correct. I'll check when I get home, but I think it's the GE EV2CS. Since the orignal meter that they replaced was all dials, I was assuming the new digital ones were all "smart".

 

[Long4Leaf]

I should have read the updates here before I called PGE. I called them and the mentioned that I will have to wait for my Leaf before I can swtich to E9a. The rep "Joe" did tell me that since I had a smart meter even though the paper work is slow since it can read by the hour the can bill me accordingly based on the day the switch over happened. I thought that was reasonable.

Now I read that there is a "different" smart meter for E9a rate? Is my understanding correct? If that is the case I assume that will cause significant delay?

I do not know if there are multiple kinds of smart meters, but my main house smart meter has not been changed and it is currently on E9a rate.

 

[Spies]

I currently have a Schlumberger MT200 TOU meter and DeaneG mentioned he had a GE KV2CS TOU meter. These meters might be "smart" but they are certainly not a SmartMeter™

It looks like my statement may not be completely accurate after all. Doing a little more research it seems the GE kV2c series of meters may be a SmartMeter™ after all and again maybe not depending on what options were installed in the meter when it was built.

 

[Electric4Me]

I too have the kV2cs meter, installed in Dec. after my solar went in. I think I'm on rate plan E-6. My meter does not show up on my PG&E account page with SmartMeter detailed info, however the following links would indicate that it could be (Note: these are for kV2c not kV2cs):
www.smartsynch.com/pdf/kV2c_SmartMeter_e.pdf
http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/b2b/newgenerator/solarwindgenerators/standardenet/howto_readnemmeter_e6.pdf

I guess with Net metering they only need to read it once a year so it may not matter if it's "smart"?

 

[Ready2plugin]

I too have the kV2cs meter, installed in Dec. after my solar went in. I think I'm on rate plan E-6. My meter does not show up on my PG&E account page with SmartMeter detailed info, however the following links would indicate that it could be (Note: these are for kV2c not kV2cs):
http://www.smartsynch.com/pdf/kV2c_SmartMeter_e.pdf
http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/b2b/newgenerator/solarwindgenerators/standardenet/howto_readnemmeter_e6.pdf

I guess with Net metering they only need to read it once a year so it may not matter if it's "smart"?

With the net meterering you get a monthly statement so that you can keep track of the YTD credit/charge.

 

[planet4ever]

I guess with Net metering they only need to read it once a year so it may not matter if it's "smart"?

No, they have to read it every month, because they assign you a usage tier each month and calculate that month's charges. Note that in PG&E territory, at least, "net metering" is something of a misnomer. The only thing that matters is "net charge" at the end of your 12-month period. Some months they add to your tab, some months they subtract, and you settle up once a year.

The part of this which is nice, and apparently different from the utilities down south, is that when the meter is going backwards PG&E pays you the same rate you would have to pay them if it was going forward. If you have a large solar array the meter will go backwards during peak periods and forward during off-peak periods at night. Because of this you can end up at a net positive meter reading for the year but a net negative cost!

Ray

 

[csriram45]

Got call from PGE rep this morning that the transformer near my house was adequate for additional load. She also thanked for applying and helping them be better prepared.

 

[gascant]

Got call from PGE rep this morning that the transformer near my house was adequate for additional load. She also thanked for applying and helping them be better prepared.

I'm not sure I get the whole PG&E facilities thing when it comes to EVSE--the transformer that serves my neighborhood block is 100 kVA and, if everyone on the block runs their A/C simultaneously during the hottest part of the day, the transformer is maxed out. We're talking about running a 3.3 kW (or up to 6.6 kW) charger, the former being less consumption than the A/C compressor at a time when most people are asleep and not using A/C. Am I missing something?

 

[greenleaf]

Got call from PGE rep this morning that the transformer near my house was adequate for additional load. She also thanked for applying and helping them be better prepared.

I'm not sure I get the whole PG&E facilities thing when it comes to EVSE--the transformer that serves my neighborhood block is 100 kVA and, if everyone on the block runs their A/C simultaneously during the hottest part of the day, the transformer is maxed out. We're talking about running a 3.3 kW (or up to 6.6 kW) charger, the former being less consumption than the A/C compressor at a time when most people are asleep and not using A/C. Am I missing something?

I read this before -- that the transformers are generally sized assuming that they have a cool down period at night, i.e. you are not supposed to run the transformers at max capacity 24/7. If too many electric cars are charging at night, leaving no chance for the transformers to cool down, then it could cause a problem.

This was the official reason given when the hot spell a few years ago caused many transformers to fail.

 

[gascant]

Got call from PGE rep this morning that the transformer near my house was adequate for additional load. She also thanked for applying and helping them be better prepared.

I'm not sure I get the whole PG&E facilities thing when it comes to EVSE--the transformer that serves my neighborhood block is 100 kVA and, if everyone on the block runs their A/C simultaneously during the hottest part of the day, the transformer is maxed out. We're talking about running a 3.3 kW (or up to 6.6 kW) charger, the former being less consumption than the A/C compressor at a time when most people are asleep and not using A/C. Am I missing something?

I read this before -- that the transformers are generally sized assuming that they have a cool down period at night, i.e. you are not supposed to run the transformers at max capacity 24/7. If too many electric cars are charging at night, leaving no chance for the transformers to cool down, then it could cause a problem.

This was the official reason given when the hot spell a few years ago caused many transformers to fail.

Thanks for the explanation--it's true that the transformer does get hot even during a normal summer day. In our development, the compressors consume 5kW while operational and, at least for the foreseeable future, I'll be the only one charging at night. Although, my wife and I were the first to own a hybrid and now there are 5 of them on the block

 

[Spies]

While I am waiting to get my SmartMeter™ for E9A installed today I decided to give PG&E a call and ask them if the meter would support solar energy production or would I need a different meter. I called the SmartMeter™ department at 1-866-743-0263 to ask. The answer was if I was to get solar today I would need a different meter since the current SmartMeter™ does not support solar however it should support solar at a future time. I did not think to ask if this only applied to the E9A rate.

This would explain those with solar not having a SmartMeter™ just yet.

 

[Spies]

Well that was lame!

The nice gentlemen from PG&E just came by and told me that he currently does not have the ability to program the GE SmartMeter™ for the E9A rate and whomever put in the order was mistaken that it could. He said he does have the ability to program the GE kV2cs for the E9A rate but it does not have SmartMeter™ functionality. I wish I paid more attention to what GE SmartMeter™ model he had on the truck but I do recall it had the SmartMeter™ logo on it unlike the kV2cs but otherwise looked identical.

He did feel that once they can program the SmartMeter™ for E9A rate one would be dispatched to my home automatically. He thought this would still be about 6 months out.

So for now I am still stuck with my Schlumberger MT200 TOU and the daily meter charge.

 

[gascant]

So for now I am still stuck with my Schlumberger MT200 TOU and the daily meter charge.

How far ahead of delivery did you order E9? I'm thinking I'll do it in the next couple weeks.

 

[Spies]

How far ahead of delivery did you order E9? I'm thinking I'll do it in the next couple weeks.

About 13 years

I was just hoping to get one of those fancy new smart meters to save about a quarter a day for the meter charge and also get to use the new fangled energy use reporting but alas.

I'm sure someone that has more recently switched over to E9 would have a better answer for you

 

[wwhitney]

Brief summary of my interaction with PG&E and a question on TOU rate plans:

I'm in Berkeley and have an underground service lateral rated at 100A in a 2" conduit. I looked into getting a separate meter for E9B, but I got the expected answer from PG&E that any changes to the service would require upgrading the service to all current PG&E requirements, which would include running new 3" conduit underground. That's just not worth it, so no changes to the service for me. Further, PG&E has an EV procedures document on their website (technical bulletin TD-7001B-002, dated January 2011) that states "no dual meter adapters". I'm tempted to call the contact person listed and ask "why?" but haven't.

[BTW for anyone in Berkeley who would want to go with E9B, I spoke with various people at the city and was told that an application for a second meter permit would be approved by zoning if the meter is to be marked "for electric vehicle use only", and that the building department would approve the permit if zoning does. Obviously individual situations may vary, but there is no blanket prohibition on second meters on single family dwellings like I hear there is in San Francisco.]

Also, I wasn't initially clear on how TOU categories and tiers interact. So I called the PG&E New Construction Service Center (which handles service changes) and asked. What I was told is that your net rate within any tier will be the weighted average of the different TOU rates in that tier, weighted according to the proportion of your total usage occurring within each TOU category. This algorithm seems to make it hard to determine the marginal cost of electricity, since if you increase your usage within one TOU category, it affects your rates at all tiers.

So what happens if I get solar panels, is the same algorithm used with just my net consumption in each TOU category? E.g. for a simplified example, if my Peak usage is -200 kwhs @ 20 cents/kwh and my Off-Peak usage is 400 kwhs @ 10 cents/kwh, then my blended rate would be -200/(400-200) * 20 + 400/(400-200) * 10 = 0 cents/kwh? What happens if this gives me a negative cost in the summer months and a positive cost in the winter months?

Random question: for E9A, has anyone considered the economics of using a (supplemental) electric tank water heater on a timer so that it only heats water during Off-Peak?

Thanks, Wayne

 

[DeaneG]

And that's why, when someone asks me how much the Leaf will cost to drive, I say: ???

To help out with E9A, you might want to look at one of the new heat-pump electric water heaters. They use a fraction of the electricity of a conventional electric heater.