News About Nissan Battery Future

[lorenfb]

Nissan should simply partner with Tesla and be done with it.

Of course there is the pesky thing of, 'to TMS or not to TMS' which is like the wars on the processor architecture, 'To RISC or not to RISC'. I think RISC is fading away.

Don't think so! And what architecture is the ARM processor in your cell phone?
Maybe ask TI and Qualcomm about their processor architectures.

And with regard to Tesla and the "great" cost savings from Giga's economy-of-scale,
the 'jury-is-out'.

 

[evnow]

Yes, of course. And just how well did this work out? The point being, adjustments to battery sourcing and the overall strategy are being considered because of competitive pressures. Both in terms of performance and price. If the current arrangement and the levels of expertise brought to bear on this was satisfactory, I very much doubt that we would be hearing anything in terms of changes.

Depends on how much truth there is in the leaked info.

Looks to me the leak is coming from someone high up - not some low level whistle blower. So, as such, I think it is most probably self-serving. Obviously they are trying to influence the decision Ghosn will make - probably undermine some people within Nissan/Renault in their quest to be the next CEO etc.

It could also be that this trial balloon has been launched to put pressure on NEC to renegotiate terms of procurement.

This is - essentially - palace intrigue. Not subject to simplistic analysis.

 

[surfingslovak]

Depends on how much truth there is in the leaked info.

Yes, obviously!

Looks to me the leak is coming from someone high up - not some low level whistle blower. So, as such, I think it is most probably self-serving. Obviously they are trying to influence the decision Ghosn will make - probably undermine some people within Nissan/Renault in their quest to be the next CEO etc.

That's as good of a guess as any. Unfortunately, all we can do is speculate. Once again. But then, that can be fun too!

It could also be that this trial balloon has been launched to put pressure on NEC to renegotiate terms of procurement.

Yes, stranger things have happened. Based on my understanding of Japanese business culture, things are done quietly and behind closed doors, whenever possible.

This is - essentially - palace intrigue. Not subject to simplistic analysis.

The nature and content of this leak is rather unusual. The public rebuttal issued by Nissan recently is also interesting. What makes this all even more intriguing are the high-level departures from the executive room. Obviously, it could be all just coincidental. The good news in all this is that the industry might be getting more competitive. That's very good news to car buying public. We might see better products, and sooner than some think. That is at least my personal take-away from this.

 

[evnow]

Yes, stranger things have happened. Based on my understanding of Japanese business culture, things are done quietly and behind closed doors, whenever possible.

Yes - that actually points the finger at expats, rather than local folk. We also don't know how much of this is all coming from Renault folks, rather than Nissan.

 

[evnow]

Nissan should simply partner with Tesla and be done with it.

Of course there is the pesky thing of, 'to TMS or not to TMS' which is like the wars on the processor architecture, 'To RISC or not to RISC'. I think RISC is fading away.

I thought you were going to say x86 is slowly fading away, which would be truer than saying RISC fading away.

It would be terrible if Nissan partners with Tesla. We'd have less competition.

Or did you mean Nissan should partner with Panasonic - who have the cell technology (not Tesla) ? That is always possible.

 

[evnow]

At this stage, I think a few players are emerging as winners and industry leaders.

You are referring to this research ? And the leaders include .... AESC !

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130702005166/en/LG-Chem-Johnson-Controls-Score-Highest-Navigant#.VBy2BmMtDX4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only three companies (LG Chem, Johnson Controls, and AESC) were ranked as “Leaders” in the report’s Leaderboard Grid.

 

[surfingslovak]

You are referring to this research ? And the leaders include .... AESC !

Yes, well, that could change sooner than you think. AESC and NEC are certainly at least partially responsible for the performance of these cells, as witnessed in the field over the past three years, and the pricing gap, as suggested by the leak. I would contend that the leak did not originate with Japanese executives. Expats who have worked there likely appreciate the business culture enough to be respectful after they move on. I would certainly not expect this to be a balloon aiming at testing the limits of the relationship with NEC. It's possible that some of these statements originated in France, particularly given the focus on the Zoe and its direct or indirect competition with the LEAF within the Alliance.

 

[Rebel44]

Nissan should simply partner with Tesla and be done with it.

Partner on the Supercharger network maybe. But partnership on batteries isn't likely since Nissan have bet on passive cooling, which long-term is probably the right approach once the batteries can live up to the task.

AFAIK, use of Tesla superchargers (or different system providing 100+KW charging) will require car battery to have BMS, because of ammount of heat generated in process of charging - especialy when Tesla want to increase ammount of power provided by SC.

 

[evnow]

The research above seems good, though. They do put LG as the best. What plugins are powered JC, though?

If LG is indeed 10% or more cheaper than AESC, we can see why Nissan wants to use them. That would mean 1K or more saving. But I wonder whether it is after accounting for TMS ...

 

[DanCar]

... They do put LG as the best. ...

Some would argue that the Panasonic Tesla combo is the best. Other car manufacturers don't agree, presumably because they feel those batteries aren't safe, but I think Tesla has shown the risk is manageable. I'm betting Tesla is going to continue being the leader with their strategy to also satisfy the solar market.

 

[evnow]

Some would argue that the Panasonic Tesla combo is the best. Other car manufacturers don't agree, presumably because they feel those batteries aren't safe, but I think Tesla has shown the risk is manageable. I'm betting Tesla is going to continue being the leader with their strategy to also satisfy the solar market.

I think Tesla is a special case which doesn't fall under here. Panasonic Li batteries are otherwise not used by anyone else.

 

[DanCar]

I think Tesla is a special case which doesn't fall under here. Panasonic Li batteries are otherwise not used by anyone else.

As you know , also used by Mercedes and Toyota. And would be used by more if Panasonic wasn't supply constrained.

 

[evnow]

As you know , also used by Mercedes and Toyota. And would be used by more if Panasonic wasn't supply constrained.

Oh well, those are Tesla made too.

I've not seen any OEM say they'd have used Panasonic but for supply constants.

 

[DanCar]

...I've not seen any OEM say they'd have used Panasonic but for supply constants.

Elon said that Toyota wanted to do a major deal with them but they had to say no because of lack of batteries.

 

[evnow]

Elon said that Toyota wanted to do a major deal with them but they had to say no because of lack of batteries.

I'm talking about OEMs doing independently with Panasonic- not through Tesla.

 

[evnow]

Insideevs finally picks up news reported quite a few days back.

http://insideevs.com/nissans-battery-factories-u-s-uk-remain-open/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan’s Battery Factories In U.S. And UK To Remain Open

“Nissan Motor Co. and Renault SA are looking for ways to reduce battery costs and share more components between electric vehicles, but they don’t plan to shutter battery factories in the U.S. and U.K.”

“The companies, which share partial ownership and technology, frequently review their battery procurement efforts as part of the effort to reduce costs on the electric Nissan Leaf and the Renault Zoe, a company official said. The review, however, doesn’t contemplate reducing employment or production at battery factories in the U.S. or the United Kingdom, the company said, responding to a report by Reuters Monday.”

“The company official said that shuttering the plant isn’t a consideration and wouldn’t even be feasible under the terms of the [U.S. government] loan agreement.”

 

[evnow]

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140925/ANE/140929945/renault-nissan-rethinks-ev-battery-strategy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“The goal is to make mass-market electric cars as efficient as possible,” Ghosn said adding that the automaker wants to “put our own battery business in competition with the outside world.”

When asked about the future of Renault-Nissan’s battery making operations in Sunderland, England, Ghosn said: “At the moment, we continue to produce our own batteries and we are open to outside sourcing, period.”

The CEO also strongly denied that there are plans to wind down Nissan’s battery production at its U.S. plant in Smyrna, Tennessee.

“The United States is the largest market for electric cars in the world and the [Nissan] Leaf is doing very well in the U.S. So, if there is a problem in Tennessee today, it’s a bottleneck problem and we are working to de-bottleneck it,” he said.

When Renault-Nissan announced plans in 2006 for an electric cars offensive, Ghosn said there was no other option than to develop and built batteries in-house. Nearly a decade later, things have changed as batteries have improved and prices have decreased because there are more competitors. “We are not changing our strategy,” Ghosn said. “We are evolving it as the technology matures.”

 

[mkjayakumar]

When a CEO's decision is wrong and had to change course, it is called 'adapting to changing conditions', 'rethinking of strategy', 'evolution'. You see, the boss is never late. He was 'held up'.

'de-bottleneck' ? I like it. A new fudge-word in the corporate lexicon.

As long as Nissan steams ahead on the EV programs and brings better and cheaper EVs, who cares ?

 

[TomT]

I would be much happier right now if Nissan HAD used Panasonic batteries and a Tesla-style TMS... I still believe it is superior overall to Nissan's (as yet unproven) Lizard battery...

I think Tesla is a special case which doesn't fall under here. Panasonic Li batteries are otherwise not used by anyone else.

 

[JPWhite]

I would be much happier right now if Nissan HAD used Panasonic batteries and a Tesla-style TMS... I still believe it is superior overall to Nissan's (as yet unproven) Lizard battery...

You do realize that the cars would have cost more. The addition of TMS and titanium and aluminum deflector plates would have driven the cost of the car up higher than it is now.

Tesla can contain the less safe more volatile battery pack thanks to adding in safety measures. Nissan focused more on safety and price with their chemistry, and unfortunately performance suffered. We'll see how the Lizard battery does.

One regrettable thing is the website we all updated to track lost bars etc has fallen into disrepair. I enquired recently about updating it (I lost my second bar recently) and as told it was 'not needed anymore' now we have the capacity warranty - it had done its job. However as a result we now we have no real world data to track the performance of the 2013/14/15 batteries and how they compare to the inferior 2011/12 batteries. Without data we are left to cast opinions about the newer batteries rather than speak from a more knowledgeable source of data.