News About Nissan Battery Future

[mkjayakumar]

... but Tesla S has had a number of battery fires ...

Let us keep the hyperbole in check. Tesla S has had TWO battery fires (three if count the one in Mexico that slammed a concrete barrier at very high speed). I wouldn't characterize that as a 'number of battery fires'.

But you are spot-on on your rest of the observations on needing to have a TMS and such.

 

[Nubo]

The LEAF, hitting the market the way it did, when it did, did a lot of good. This is my early-adopter opinion. But you all are telling me, they were one year away from having a more durable battery. Well, it's been four years now, and not much has changed. So I'm politely calling that one, "folklore".

[x] strongly agree [ ] agree [ ] neutral [ ] disagree [] strongly disagree

 

[pkulak]

... but Tesla S has had a number of battery fires ...

Let us keep the hyperbole in check. Tesla S has had TWO battery fires (three if count the one in Mexico that slammed a concrete barrier at very high speed). I wouldn't characterize that as a 'number of battery fires'.

But you are spot-on on your rest of the observations on needing to have a TMS and such.

TIL: Three is not a number.

 

[kmp647]

Is it just me? 3 years and 45,000 miles and today I am as bummed and as pessimistic about Leaf 2.0 as I have ever been. If Carlos is getting slammed and they have to sell the battery production to LG.......
Big delays on improvements to the Leaf are my prediction

Please tell me I'm wrong.

Happy leaf driver

 

[pkulak]

Yeah, this doesn't look good. Nissan is probably out of the game for a while now.

 

[GRA]

Yeah, this doesn't look good. Nissan is probably out of the game for a while now.

I think this is an overreaction. It's true that BEV and PEV battery sales have fallen far short of earlier predictions, but even if Nissan gets out of the battery business there's still enough for LG Chem and a few others.

 

[edatoakrun]

Nissan-Renault Alliance Doesn't Plan to Shutter Battery Factories

Companies Dispute Media Report

Sept. 15, 2014 11:21 a.m. ET

Nissan Motor Co. and Renault SA are looking for ways to reduce battery costs and share more components between electric vehicles, but they don't plan to shutter battery factories in the U.S. and U.K.

The companies, which share partial ownership and technology, frequently review their battery procurement efforts as part of the effort to reduce costs on the electric Nissan Leaf and the Renault Zoe, a company official said. The review, however, doesn't contemplate reducing employment or production at battery factories in the U.S. or the United Kingdom, the company said, responding to a report by Reuters Monday.

"The Renault-Nissan Alliance remains 100% committed to its industry-leading EV program. This global commitment continues for the foreseeable future, and we haven't taken any decision whatsoever to modify battery sourcing allocation. Nissan has no plans to impair its battery investments," said Rachel Konrad, the chief spokeswoman for the Nissan-Renault Alliance...

http://online.wsj.com/articles/nissan-renault-alliance-doesnt-plan-to-shutter-battery-factories-1410794479" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Nubo]

Is it just me? 3 years and 45,000 miles and today I am as bummed and as pessimistic about Leaf 2.0 as I have ever been. If Carlos is getting slammed and they have to sell the battery production to LG.......
Big delays on improvements to the Leaf are my prediction

Please tell me I'm wrong.

Happy leaf driver

On the contrary, I speculate that this is all in anticipation of head-to-head competition with Tesla. They are realizing a need to up their game.

 

[scottf200]

Does LG Chem create the equivalent of "lizard" batteries/chemistries that would "go the distance" in medium-to-hot climates? Or we talking about a TMS being needed?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The cost of building the battery manufacturing plant was always a large fixed cost that did not scale with production volumes. Without the ability to fill those factories, it becomes quite difficult to pay for them.

I'm wondering if this situation in any way influenced Andy Palmer's departure.

Andy Palmer and LEAF Manager Billy Hayes.

They both left.

I seriously doubt this is all a coincidence. Remember that we lost previous LEAF Manager Mark Oerry over battery issues.

 

[ydnas7]

The cost of building the battery manufacturing plant was always a large fixed cost that did not scale with production volumes. Without the ability to fill those factories, it becomes quite difficult to pay for them.

I'm wondering if this situation in any way influenced Andy Palmer's departure.

Andy Palmer and LEAF Manager Billy Hayes.

They both left.

I seriously doubt this is all a coincidence. Remember that we lost previous LEAF Manager Mark Oerry over battery issues.

Carlos Ghosn is too young for his top lieutenants to get a short at being No.1.
Check out the ages of Japanese auto CEOs.
Carlos Ghosn's Nissan has a culture of high ambition expats, eg note well that Palmer has ascended Ashton Marton http://www.autoblog.com/2014/09/02/andy-palmer-aston-martin-ceo-official" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; / Carlos Travares http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/automotive-group/governance/managing-board/carlos-tavares" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are now ego No1 at 2 auotmakers
thats also a sign of market demand for Ghosn's protégées.

 

[evnow]

Having seen many large multinationals work - not surprised that there is politics / infighting in Nissan/Renault. Not surprised that vague reports get printed by "news" agencies. I've first hand seen "news" reports that totally distort what is going on. So, we'll have to wait to see what actually, if anything, transpires.

As usual, there is no smoke without fire. But confuse the smoke for the fire.

Think why someone would leak information. What are the motives of these people - and whether they would leak information that is correct or just self-serving. While leaking information anonymously how much stake is there for these people to stick to truth.

One of the motivations for the "leakers" could be to actually prevent something from happening, BTW.

 

[ydnas7]

Does LG Chem create the equivalent of "lizard" batteries/chemistries that would "go the distance" in medium-to-hot climates? Or we talking about a TMS being needed?

Todate, all plugin vehicles vehicles using LG Chem use TMS, HEVs are different and don't use refrigerant TMS.

LG is also developing some ENVIA class batteries, but if LG's Mn Spinel batteries use TMS, then the less safe ENVIA class batteries would definitely use TMS.

 

[evnow]

Carlos Ghosn is too young for his top lieutenants to get a short at being No.1.
Check out the ages of Japanese auto CEOs.
Carlos Ghosn's Nissan has a culture of high ambition expats, eg note well that Palmer has ascended Ashton Marton http://www.autoblog.com/2014/09/02/andy-palmer-aston-martin-ceo-official" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; / Carlos Travares http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/automotive-group/governance/managing-board/carlos-tavares" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are now ego No1 at 2 auotmakers
thats also a sign of market demand for Ghosn's protégées.

Actually Ghosn has announced he is retiring after 2017. So people are jockeying to be the next CEO. Andy probably left because he was out of contention. This report seems to be against Tavares - no doubt put out by the anti-Tavares camp.

 

[palmermd]

Nissan Expected To Exit Lithium-Ion Battery Business – Will Turn to LG Chem

http://insideevs.com/nissan-expected-exit-lithium-ion-battery-business-will-likely-turn-lg-chem-future-supply/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Officially, the position right now for Nissan is no comment, but Renault-Nissan inside sources have told Reuters that Nissan will likely exit the business of battery making in the U.S. and UK as soon as next month.

Wow! What does this say about the Lizard battery....does it mean that this Lizard battery we've been hearing about is the one from LG Chem? Will the packs be assembled by LG Chem and have liquid cooling like the LG Chem packs in the Volt, or just different cells in the same enclosure? So many open questions after reading this teaser article.

edit: ok merge with the other thread...I did not see it on first search, but now found it.

 

[Stoaty]

Moderator: please move last few posts to Tesla thread (and delete this post).

 

[surfingslovak]

You’d think that with all the Renault-Nissan/ LG Chem news swirling around that there’s been some sort of major intel leak at The Alliance. We’re thinking that’s the case for sure. With all the specific info that’s come out over the last day, it must be some higher up, or now-departed higher up, who leaked the info to Reuters.

But wait, there’s more.

It seems that Renault-Nissan is crumbling within. The Alliance has “internal rivalries” that Reuters claims led to a fault in the development of the Nissan LEAF.

Per Reuters, citing inside sources:

“Former Nissan second-in-command Carlos Tavares, racing to beat the Renault Zoe to market, cut Leaf development by a year and skipped a critical battery redesign, according to alliance veterans. Nissan later cut prices, settled a class action and offered retroactive warranties to answer customer concerns about battery deterioration.”

This critical battery redesign is definitely referring to the LEAF’s battery performance in hot conditions. Could it be that the redesign would’ve employed liquid cooling? Or at least some form of active air cooling?

Tavares is no longer with Renault-Nissan.

Additionally, Tavares’ rival over at Renault, Patrick Pelata, “signed a confidentiality deal with LG that meant Nissan battery engineers never even knew what they were up against.”

The Renault ZOE does not suffer from heat-related battery degradation as does the early LEAFs.

Fortunately, the internal fighting within The Alliance is now being stamped out seemingly all high level execs are exiting the company(note the several high level recent departures such as Andy Palmer (Chief Planning), Carlos Tavares (Renault boss), Billy Hayes (LEAF boss), Johan de Nysschen (Infiniti boss), etc) by Renault-Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn.

We certainly hope that, moving forward, Renault-Nissan works together to further its position as the battery-electric leaders of the world. These internal issues that lead to a not-up-to-par Nissan LEAF need to be addressed if The Alliance is to remain the world’s frontrunner in the BEV segment.

Source: Reuters

Click to open

 

[tbleakne]

The reference below was cited in the Teslamotorsclub thread on this topic.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...lug-on-some-battery-plant-production-buy-from

For Nissan, the plant cuts would be a partial retreat from the automotive battery market -- expected to top $20 billion by 2020 -- just as Tesla builds its $5 billion gigafactory with Panasonic in Nevada.

Japanese engineers are still smarting from Renault's 2010 move to drop Nissan batteries and purchase LG for its flagship Zoe model, worsening the overcapacity problem.

"It was a 15-20 percent cost gap," said one of the people involved in the Renault decision. "In purchasing, 3-4 percent is usually enough to choose a partner for."

Today's Nissan batteries come in at $270 per kWh, based on replacement prices thought to be below cost, according to consulting firm AlixPartners. The true manufacturing cost is believed to be over $300, inflated by the amortization of unused plant capacity and the burdensome electrodes deal.

The next generation will have lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide cathodes, as used by LG, rather than the current lithium manganese oxide chemistry. The alliance cost target is $200/kWh, whether made or bought, sources said.

With a clean slate and sufficient volume, Nissan engineers insist, their next generation of batteries could be competitive on price as well as keeping crucial know-how at the company.

"When you're developing cutting-edge technology, the best way to know about that technology is to build it in-house," said one. "That's what Tesla is doing."

 

[gsleaf]

With a clean slate and sufficient volume, Nissan engineers insist, their next generation of batteries could be competitive on price as well as keeping crucial know-how at the company.

"When you're developing cutting-edge technology, the best way to know about that technology is to build it in-house," said one. "That's what Tesla is doing."

Sounds like Tesla/Panasonic may be picking up some new engineers.

 

[evnow]

Note that the above are bits of the original article posted in other sites - without much commentary ...