Daimler, Ford and Nissan team up on fuel-cell cars

[EdmondLeaf]

Mercedes-Benz parent Daimler, whose hydrogen-powered car technologies are the most advanced but still prohibitively expensive, will pool investment with its Japanese and U.S. partners under a contract announced on Monday.

The program aims to cut the technology's costs and launch the world's first fuel-cell vehicles for the mass market in 2017, the companies said.

Monday's announcement upgrades Daimler's existing fuel-cell research venture with Ford and brings in Nissan. The German luxury carmaker entered a broad-based strategic alliance with Nissan and its French affiliate Renault (RENA.PA) in 2010.

While Mercedes has been at the forefront of fuel-cell research, German rival BMW had initially backed a rival liquid hydrogen technology. Under last week's deal, BMW gains access to Toyota's fuel cells in exchange for some of its own carbon-fibre know-how.

General Motors Co (GM.N) has made more progress on fuel cells than Daimler or Toyota, GM Chief Executive Dan Akerson said on Monday, but the U.S. carmaker is holding back until refueling networks are rolled out and the technology is less costly.

"None of them are as far along as we are," Akerson told reporters after announcing a $600 million investment in GM's Kansas City, Kansas, assembly plant. "But we're not going to press this thing into the marketplace before the infrastructure is ready."

Hyundai is also betting on fuel cells to leapfrog battery technology and showed hydrogen-powered production models at last September's Paris auto show.

As Daimler and many peers are increasingly convinced, hydrogen cars now offer "the greatest potential for emission-free driving," Weber said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/28/us-daimer-ford-nissan-idUSBRE90R0CO20130128

 

[GeekEV]

Well, nobody's as far along as I am. But the world can't handle how awesome I am, so I'm not going to release my car to market until they can.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

More of the same topic. What is the cost of Honda Clarity, what is the range, how much is hydrogen?

Both Japanese automakers, meanwhile, have forged new alliances to develop hydrogen-powered fuel cell cars, Toyota with BMW and, in a deal announced last week, Nissan with Daimler AG (DAIGn.DE) and Ford Motor Co (F.N).

In the meantime, despite massive investments in battery technology and vehicles, even the most ardent EV adherents seem a bit ambivalent about the future of battery cars.
"We don't regret it yet," says Nissan's Yamashita of the company's multibillion-dollar gamble on EVs. "We might in a few years. No, we probably won't."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/04/uk-autos-electric-hydrogen-idUSLNE91303P20130204

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

no crying and whining about how much money it takes to put in an effective quick charge network since H2 fueling stations prove to be much more expensive and unlike charging stations, ZERO potential for cheap wind or solar now or EVER...

well, maybe not ever. who knows? we could discover a way to bottle Hydrogen and keep it there!

 

[braineo]

After experiencing the total lack of L2 and L3 charging, reading about another pie in the sky Hydrogen economy without any posibility of refueling at home seems totally inane. Seems automaker like to keep people tethered to fuel stations. Having my Leaf with the potential of unlimited solar charging makes much more sense. Specially if v3solar delivers their 0.08 cents per kilowatt installed cost they are announcing.

 

[RonDawg]

What is the cost of Honda Clarity, what is the range, how much is hydrogen?

According to Honda's own website, it's a whopping $600/month LEASE (no purchase) for 3 years. It does include maintenance and comp/collision insurance, and has a zero capitalized cost reduction (aka down payment) but of course does not include taxes, reg, and other fees. It's still more than twice my out-of-pocket cost for my Leaf though for the same term.

It's only available to 200 lucky lessees "primarily in Southern California" in any color you want as long as it's "Star Garnet Metallic."

And if that isn't discouraging enough, there are only 10 hydrogen fueling stations in the entire country. 9 of which are in California, 8 of which are in SoCal and 7 of which are in the greater LA area. And you thought our CHAdeMO infrastructure was lacking.

 

[cwerdna]

What is the cost of Honda Clarity, what is the range, how much is hydrogen?

According to Honda's own website, it's a whopping $600/month LEASE (no purchase) for 3 years. It does include maintenance and comp/collision insurance, and has a zero capitalized cost reduction (aka down payment) but of course does not include taxes, reg, and other fees. It's still more than twice my out-of-pocket cost for my Leaf though for the same term.

I believe that $600/month also includes fuel. I remember a rep at Alt Car Expo mentioning that to me. I don't recall the exact reason but I believe it was something along the lines of not having a standard for measuring the volume or quantity dispensed. Something like that. Hopefully someone can chime in w/the correct answer.

 

[ww73]

I have high doubts that hydrogen fuel cell cars will ever work. The cost/creation of fuel, transport, fueling infrastructure, the "tank" in the car, etc. etc.

If these car companies keep stalling, Tesla will eventually eat their breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Tesla already owns the high end EV market. If they successfully create the sub $40K compact, it could be game over. I know I would buy one. (but not at $100K!)

Nissan's got a great head start w/ the Leaf, but not building out the L3 network could be the achilles heel. Don't the executives at Nissan understand that Chademo is what's going to ultimately sell EVs to the non early adopters?

 

[cwerdna]

FWIW, I'm not pro but in the Electric Vehicle LinkedIn group, there is a very long and heated discussion about the merits (or lack of) of FCEVs. It's titled The electric revolution has fallen flat, http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/engineering/article3651651.ece?goback=%2Egde_3284455_member_202602560#%2EUO09LN2yO9Q%2Elinkedin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I haven't had the time nor motivation to follow it closely. There are a few pro FCEV folks, including the thread starter. There are some interesting points brought up by her, but I'm not sure how true they are...

From the pics I took at Alt Car Expo of some components of FCEVs at the booth promoting them, there seems to be A LOT of additional complexity vs. pure BEVs, if nothing else.

If you're curious. I put the pics up at https://picasaweb.google.com/105684180251177299188/AltCarExpo2012?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCITZzJvF9JKo2QE&feat=directlink" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The last two pics are of the CHAdeMO tow charger that Nissan brought along w/charge their Leafs. It was towed by a Nissan SUV (Armada, IIRC).

 

[RonDawg]

I believe that $600/month also includes fuel. I remember a rep at Alt Car Expo mentioning that to me. I don't recall the exact reason but I believe it was something along the lines of not having a standard for measuring the volume or quantity dispensed. Something like that. Hopefully someone can chime in w/the correct answer.

The Honda website makes no mention of fuel being included, or not included, unless they consider refueling to be part of "maintenance." The refueling stations all require key card access, which I presume is linked to someone's bank account, whether Honda's or the lessee's.

Unlike most leases (including those for the Leaf), Honda Finance is not imposing a mileage limit for Clarity leases. I guess they figure the current lack of infrastructure will keep mileage down despite the EPA estimated 240 mile range.

 

[cwerdna]

I believe that $600/month also includes fuel. I remember a rep at Alt Car Expo mentioning that to me. I don't recall the exact reason but I believe it was something along the lines of not having a standard for measuring the volume or quantity dispensed. Something like that. Hopefully someone can chime in w/the correct answer.

The Honda website makes no mention of fuel being included, or not included, unless they consider refueling to be part of "maintenance." The refueling stations all require key card access, which I presume is linked to someone's bank account, whether Honda's or the lessee's.

Unlike most leases (including those for the Leaf), Honda Finance is not imposing a mileage limit for Clarity leases. I guess they figure the current lack of infrastructure will keep mileage down despite the EPA estimated 240 mile range.

Yeah, I didn't see any mention of it there either, but http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20043071-48.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; mentions it.

Drivers pay $600 per month to lease the four-seater from Honda, with all maintenance and hydrogen gas included. There's also no mileage restriction, which means you can drive the FCX Clarity as far and as often as you want--so long as you're within access to a hydrogen-refueling station.

At the expo, I did test drive the FCX Clarity, Mercedes' B-Call FCV, Nissan's X-Trail FCV and one from Hyundai/Kia. I recall that some reps mentioned that the reason why they aren't more widely deployed is currently due to infrastructure.

The Nissan vehicle was actually rather old and IIRC, they said they were borrowing it for the expo from a lessee, Coca-Cola. The Nissan rep I believe worked at their Sacramento research facility. The HVAC panel was identical or almost identical to that of my 350Z. I recall he mentioned that the gauge cluster was the same as some other previous Nissan EV.