my opinion on electric car after 2300 miles on my leaf

[2k1Toaster]

Re: factual...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071391_life-after-death-what-happens-when-your-prius-battery-dies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure what you are trying to point out. You may want to know that I am on the Prius Technical list and have completely decoded the CAN bus in the vehicle as well as made custom hardware to integrate into the hybrid, engine, and battery ECUs. I know the Prius inside and out. It is completely roadworthly with a dying battery and gives you many thousands of miles of "warnings". It doesn't just die.

 

[2k1Toaster]

Except that the Prius is not street legal without a battery. Sure it will drive but you can't register it. Any Prius hybrid system problem would likely need work at a dealership (ok, maybe not in CA but anywhere else) and it is very robust but more complicated than the Leafs.

Leaf's EV system has been pretty darn reliable and guessing that it will cost more than a Prius is just a guess.

Ok - lastly - who really wants to drive a Prius vs a Leaf?

The Prius is not functional without a battery. Since it is not functional, that means it is not street legal. But this has nothing to do with missing the battery and everything to do with it not working. The "transmission" is not a transmission but a static planetary gear. The second Motor Generator (MG2) is what directly drives the wheels. The secondary rings on the planetary gear go to the engine, and the inner gear goes to the first MG, MG1. Without the battery, MG1 cannot spin the engine, as the Prius has no starter motor. Without the engine MG2 and MG1 cannot function which means that the planetary gear would remain stationary and the car would not move at all. Even if the engine was jumped and manually controlled to spin at whatever RPM, it would just spin the MG's and try to charge the battery through the inverter, the car would not move.

The transaxle in a Prius can be replaced as a DIY or any backyard mechanic. You don't even need to remove the engine, it just slips right off and bolts back on. Easy peasy.

I drive our Prii all the time, they are great cars. In some aspects better than the Leaf. I just got back from skiing in the mountains, 240miles loaded with 180cm skis inside the hatch (don't fit in the Leaf) and 2 passengers with lots of HVAC heat. It is a different tool for a different job, and the Leaf cannot do that job. For driving around town, the Leaf is a better fit. For hauling, the Prius wins. On the frontrange of the Rockies where I am, the Leaf can't make it to even the closest town from mine one direction. Even if I wanted to drive it to its death one way, it would not make it. Don't bash the Prius unless you know what you are talking about. The two cars are not even close to compare other than they are "alternative fuels". And that's where the resemblance ends.

 

[davidcary]

I didn't "bash" the Prius but driving electric is a far better experience than driving a small motor car with a CVT. I've driven a Prius and several times considered buying one. But for me, the lack of NVH at full throttle makes there really no comparison between a Prius and a Leaf.

Without a battery - ok I meant a bad battery - semantics in my opinion.

 

[RonDawg]

I didn't "bash" the Prius but driving electric is a far better experience than driving a small motor car with a CVT. I've driven a Prius and several times considered buying one. But for me, the lack of NVH at full throttle makes there really no comparison between a Prius and a Leaf.

The NVH of the Prius at full throttle was particularly off-putting for me during a test drive. It's been many years since I owned a car with an engine that "thrashy."

I recently took some co-workers in my Leaf, none of whom own even a hybrid car much less any sort of plug-in, and were amazed that I could accelerate rather quickly to city speeds but there was no accompanying noise or vibration coming from the "engine" compartment.

 

[jimgior]

After 1000 miles I'm perfectly happy with the Leaf. We test drove the Volt, it was nice, but the whole purpose of me going to EV as to be pure EV. To each their own I guess.

 

[CoolerThanICE]

To the OP... (sorry I haven't read the 7 pages of thread yet)

Savings will really depend on how much you pay for electricity. And if you pay a lot for it, then yes, it might not make too much sense to go with LEAF vs Prius.

Allow me to do some math... I'm just going to use EPA numbers, and typical gas and electricity prices in CA.

- The LEAF is rated EPA at 3.5mi/kWh. (115 MPGe)
- 1 gallon of gas = 33.7kWh of energy (that's how the EPA gets MPGe)
- A gallon of gas is about ~ $3.40 right now

So to compare apples to apples, and maximize your savings, you should be paying $0.102/kWh (=$3.40/ga X 1ga/33.7kWh) to pay the same for fuel as a Prius driver. The equivalent of driving a 115MPG ICE car and paying $3.40/ga for gas (imaging you LEAF was an ICE), vs a Prius 50MPG paying the same for gas.

However, if you are like me in CA and pay electricity in a tiered schedule*, you are probably paying about $0.35/kWh, which is equivalent to be paying $11.795/ga of gas (= $0.35/kWh / (1ga/33.7kWh) )

So in the ICE world, at $0.35/kWh converted to gas equivalent, you'd be still driving a 115MPG car, but you'd be paying for gas $11.80/ga (!) - Thats about 3.5 times more than what fuel cost today! - That's great milage, but super expensive fuel.

Bottom line that would make each car:

LEAF: $11.80/115mpg = $0.10/mi (@ $0.35/kWh)
Prius: $3.40/50mpg = $0.07/mi

So yes, if you pay $0.35/kWh and want to save money today, you should be driving a Prius. But most people pay $0.10/kWh (or less, or get free juice at work or public somehow, which makes it even better)

* I'm switching to the PG&E EV-A (TOU rate) pretty soon... but not soon enough.

EDIT: Calculations now in my sig below:

 

[Graffi]

Not sure about the policy of your electric provider, but for me in San Diego I only pay $0.11 / kwh. In an earlier post on another thread I was challenged about this price, but the reason I get this rate is because I use an electrical medical device. For me is is a C-pap machine that I use when I sleep. This gives me a lower Baseline rate of $0.11, plus it gives me a very large Baseline allowance that I never exceed, even with the leaf charging. I have no need to get the EV charging rate (which is higher)

The lesson here is that if you use any kind of electrical medical device check with your utility as to lower rate and increased allowance. I have been using the C-pap machine for over 8 years but only learned of the special rates about 9 months ago. It only took about a month to get the rates changed, and boy am I happy.

 

[CoolerThanICE]

I put all the calculations above in an easy google spreadsheet here and in my signature. Enjoy!

 

[planet4ever]

Your calculations are correct, Cooler, but certainly not typical.

1. We have both a LEAF and a Prius. I get 4.0m/kWh, not 3.5, on the LEAF, and 40 mpg, not 50, on the Prius. Those differences alone bring the two vehicles to the same fuel cost per mile.
2. Most of California is served by one of the three investor-owned utilities (Pacific Gas & Electric, Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric) and they do all have high rates for their top tier, though SCE tops out at $0.31. The tiers and rates are imposed by state law and the California Public Utilities Commission, and are likely to be revamped in the near future. The top tier rates will be reduced, and customers will be pushed toward time-of-use plans. For the present, though, it is correct to assume top tier rates for charging the car if, and only if, your home already, without including the EV, uses somewhat more than the average amount of electricity for your area. All three of the utilities do provide alternate rate schedules such as the PG&E EV-A rate you mention which can significantly reduce the EV charging cost. Most of the US has much lower rates, and Californians can reduce their charging rates by conserving, installing solar, and/or switching to a different plan. My PG&E rate varies over the year, but I estimate that charging my LEAF averages about $0.20 per kWh.

Ray

 

[RonDawg]

Not sure about the policy of your electric provider, but for me in San Diego I only pay $0.11 / kwh. In an earlier post on another thread I was challenged about this price, but the reason I get this rate is because I use an electrical medical device. For me is is a C-pap machine that I use when I sleep. This gives me a lower Baseline rate of $0.11, plus it gives me a very large Baseline allowance that I never exceed, even with the leaf charging. I have no need to get the EV charging rate (which is higher)

The lesson here is that if you use any kind of electrical medical device check with your utility as to lower rate and increased allowance. I have been using the C-pap machine for over 8 years but only learned of the special rates about 9 months ago. It only took about a month to get the rates changed, and boy am I happy.

I looked into it and at least with my municipal-owned utility, it wouldn't work. For one, they only do this with "low income" customers, and I unlikely qualify.

Second, even if I did qualify, the savings would be so small as to not be noticeable. That's because they only give you a discount only based on the total wattage of the qualifying medical devices, and not the entire base rate.

I don't know how much power my CPAP actually draws, but it uses a 60 watt power supply very much like that of a laptop. So assuming it is a 60 watt machine, 60 watts x 8 hours per day x 30 days is only 14.4 kWH per month of CPAP usage. Assuming they give me a $0.05/kWH discount on actual medical device usage, that's a mere 72 cents per month in savings.