my opinion on electric car after 2300 miles on my leaf

[smkettner]

Sounds Very Confusing!
How do you California Leafers ever know what you are paying for electric?

I pay $08.1/Kw hour.
Night, Day, Winter, Summer, aardvark, whatever.

Must be municipal owned vs our investor owned.
I would love to see a massive government takeover of SCE & SDGE etc.

 

[thait84]

The problem with having another meter is that when you get solar, you can't have the solar you generate subtract from both the house meter + the EVSE meter.

 

[planet4ever]

I pay $08.1/Kw hour. Night, Day, Winter, Summer, aardvark, whatever.

Must be municipal owned vs our investor owned.

Yes, but it's also California vs. other states. The very powerful California Public Utilities Commission forces all investor or privately owned utilities in the state to follow its rules whether the utility wants to or not. And in most cases those rules include tier pricing.

So you can blame the utilities for the inefficiencies that often go along with regulated monopolies, or perhaps for excess profit taking (though the CPUC is supposed to prevent that), but you really can't blame them for tier pricing.

Ray

 

[mbender]

Sounds Very Confusing!
How do you California Leafers ever know what you are paying for electric?

I pay $08.1/Kw hour.
Night, Day, Winter, Summer, aardvark, whatever.

I presume you meant $0.081 / kWh, otherwise we have a new winner for the worst-electric-rate award! ;-)

All kidding aside, things out here are confusing, but at least most of my fellow "compatriots" can choose which rate they want to be on based on what works out best for them. I believe that I am one of perhaps a few who have no say in the matter: i.e., I live in what is referred to as a submetered arrangement, so my "landlord" selects the plan and we "tenants" pay them, not the utility. And unfortunately, "they" pay commercial rates. (This is all currently in a state of conflict and flux, but that is another story. If anyone is really curious or has expertise, feel free to PM me.)

 

[Valdemar]

The problem with having another meter is that when you get solar, you can't have the solar you generate subtract from both the house meter + the EVSE meter.

Is this really a problem with a net metering plan? If you generate excess you''ll get your money back.

Another interesting detail, at least for SCE EV TOU off-peak ends at noon, and whole-house TOU On-Peak starts at 10am, so if you have solar on your main meter you will be selling excess for more than you pay for charging from 10am-noon on the EV meter at the same time.

 

[Valdemar]

They are probably wanting a "split" service for two reasons:

1. So they can just bill you as if the EVSE were a separate dwelling;
2. To make more work for their crews, who now have to run a dedicated "drop" to the second meter

Otherwise there is really no need for the second meter to have its own dedicated service. Assuming both meters are read at the same time (no reason not to) they simply subtract the EVSE's sum meter reading from that of the main meter to get the billing rates correct. With smart meters they already know how much electricity you're using at any given minute.

It unclear why, but looking at the Schedule TOU-EV-1 the only theory I have is that they may want to install additional equipment under certain conditions and that requires a separate service.

Applicable to charging of electric vehicles, as defined in Rule 1, on a separate meter provided by SCE in
Single Family Accommodations concurrently served under a Domestic schedule. The customer is
responsible for all costs associated with the equipment required under Special Condition 3.
....
3. Metering: The Point of Delivery must contain equipment to separately meter EV charging
facilities. Where SCE determines that the operation of the EV charging facilities may interfere
with service to that customer or other customers, SCE will install a load management device
to control when EV charging will occur. In addition, and for purposes of monitoring customer
load, SCE may install at its expense, load research metering. The customer shall supply, at
no expense to SCE, a suitable location for meters and associated equipment used for billing
and for load research.

And

Service Delivery Point (SDP) is defined as the point where the distribution extension line drops from the utility’s primary distribution lines to deliver power to the customer. Extension lines that deliver power to other meters on the property are not considered separate service delivery points.

 

[Phatcat73]

I created my own calculator where I compared break even points between Leaf, Cmax hybrid and cmax energi over my existing 30MPG Ford Escape hybrid. The cmaxes were not even worth the upgrade over my Frod. My main driver for getting a Leaf was cost savings and not supporting the rich oil companies.

As of 9 months and 13000 miles on the Leaf:
13000 miles / 4 miles per kWh = 3250 kWh
3250 kWh x $0.10/kWh flat 24x7, post tax rate = $325 to travel 13000 miles in the Leaf or 2.5 cents per mile

as compared to my Ford:

13000 miles / 30mpg = 433 gallons
433 x $3.50 avg = $1516 fuel
or 11 cents per mile + oil changes, air filters, & higher registration

$1516 gas vs $325 electric
or put it another way, my Leaf costs 80% less to drive than my Ford.

The savings are even greater as I have about 400 kWh from free charging that I didn't include above.

I'm also lucky that my local utility sets rates only once per year. I'm immune to geopolitical influences to oil.

 

[Valdemar]

Have you considered the true cost of ownership in your calculations? My '11 depreciated about $12k over 2years/40k miles, and I may be saved 7k ad compared to the ICE car the Leaf replaced. In retrospect, buying a Prius would have been a smarter choice if savings was my first priority.

 

[thankyouOB]

Have you considered the true cost of ownership in your calculations? My '11 depreciated about $12k over 2years/40k miles, and I may be saved 7k ad compared to the ICE car the Leaf replaced. In retrospect, buying a Prius would have been a smarter choice if savings was my first priority.

yea, but i had $12500 in state and federal incentives and rebates for my 2011.

 

[Valdemar]

I had 10k in rebates, so out of pocket with taxes was around 27k, today I can sell it maybe for 15k. Tomorrow who knows but I suspect there won't be too many buyers looking for a car with 3-4 CBs missing.

 

[nosuchthing]

TOU EV?

Yes. I went from E7 4-tier with top rates of 30-50 cents to top rate of 19 cents as TOU.

That's 2-9 pm top rate (19 cents), with the night time 4 cents and 7am to 2 pm 5 cents. As I said my average went from 28 cents to 18. Average means total electricity dollars divided by total kWs used, including EVs, refrigerators, TVs, lights all in one bag. Simple calculation.

That said, PG&E is a big rip. Always has been, except now (my first bill) I pay about 60 bucks less a month then a month before. Meanwhile, I pay 30 cents for electricity on every dollar I'd spend on gas. It's not the best. Seattle owners pay 10 cents on every gas dollar.

 

[thankyouOB]

I had 10k in rebates, so out of pocket with taxes was around 27k, today I can sell it maybe for 15k. Tomorrow who knows but I suspect there won't be too many buyers looking for a car with 3-4 CBs missing.

the value proposition is better than your talking points.
reading your data...that means you paid about $3k+ in taxes; making it about 24k price on the car after incentives/rebates, so you are 9k lost to depreciation, some of which you made back; about 6-7k in gas if you drove 40k so far, as you say.
just sayin'
i never heard of anyone who includes the taxes in the depreciation equation, but ymmv.

 

[cwerdna]

TOU EV?

Yes. I went from E7 4-tier with top rates of 30-50 cents to top rate of 19 cents as TOU.

That's 2-9 pm top rate (19 cents), with the night time 4 cents and 7am to 2 pm 5 cents. As I said my average went from 28 cents to 18. Average means total electricity dollars divided by total kWs used, including EVs, refrigerators, TVs, lights all in one bag. Simple calculation.

What schedule is that? Have an URL to it?

 

[Valdemar]

I had 10k in rebates, so out of pocket with taxes was around 27k, today I can sell it maybe for 15k. Tomorrow who knows but I suspect there won't be too many buyers looking for a car with 3-4 CBs missing.

the value proposition is better than your talking points.
reading your data...that means you paid about $3k+ in taxes; making it about 24k price on the car after incentives/rebates, so you are 9k lost to depreciation, some of which you made back; about 6-7k in gas if you drove 40k so far, as you say.
just sayin'
i never heard of anyone who includes the taxes in the depreciation equation, but ymmv.

Fair enough, my view is probably overly pessimistic. Still, those who primarily want to buy a car to save money should seriously consider the Prius over Leaf.

 

[Phatcat73]

I had 10k in rebates, so out of pocket with taxes was around 27k, today I can sell it maybe for 15k. Tomorrow who knows but I suspect there won't be too many buyers looking for a car with 3-4 CBs missing.

the value proposition is better than your talking points.
reading your data...that means you paid about $3k+ in taxes; making it about 24k price on the car after incentives/rebates, so you are 9k lost to depreciation, some of which you made back; about 6-7k in gas if you drove 40k so far, as you say.
just sayin'
i never heard of anyone who includes the taxes in the depreciation equation, but ymmv.

Fair enough, my view is probably overly pessimistic. Still, those who primarily want to buy a car to save money should seriously consider the Prius over Leaf.

Disagree, per my case and local incentives.

In comparision against: 2013 Prius Invoice: $24,009

2013 Leaf SV Invoice (tax excluded): $30,958
- $10,680 ($7500 Fed Credit & $3180 IL Credit)
=$20,278

Other Local perks, per my case
$0.03/mile vs $0.11 in my 30mpg ICE ($1200 savings vs buying gas over 13k miles)
$1000 IL Charging station rebate (50%)
$146 IL license tag reduction (2 yrs vs ICE license tag)

Maintenance costs over 13000 Miles
$6 cabin filter
$40 wiper blades
no other out of pocket maintenance required for another 13k-15k miles, which will be the same 2 items above.

Oh, and I initially paid $1000 under invoice for my Leaf.


General Common arguments:
1) You can go farther in a Prius: Agree. The Leaf is not a one size fits all. But if it fits, then you're golden. If you have a 2 car household then you have further flexibility

2) Battery degrades in a Leaf: Sure, in certain climates it's an issue. I have 13k miles and all my gids. I have a mechanic friend who's seeing 150k+ mile Prius's come in with a check engine light, pointing to defective battery. Solution is to replace the battery costing around $3k. Owners can still drive the car, however it'll be running on gas the entire time. That may be ok, except when it comes time for emissions testing the car will fail due to check engine light, and will be considered non-road worthy and illegal to operate.

Leaf Choice was easy for me

my $0.02

 

[2k1Toaster]

2) Battery degrades in a Leaf: Sure, in certain climates it's an issue. I have 13k miles and all my gids. I have a mechanic friend who's seeing 150k+ mile Prius's come in with a check engine light, pointing to defective battery. Solution is to replace the battery costing around $3k. Owners can still drive the car, however it'll be running on gas the entire time. That may be ok, except when it comes time for emissions testing the car will fail due to check engine light, and will be considered non-road worthy and illegal to operate.

The Prius has just above zero maintenance as well. The only difference is oil changes and engine air filters. My 2006 has original everything except oils and filters. As to battery failures, there will always be a few cases at any mileage. I know a couple people who have had their batteries fail within the warranty period (100k miles in non-CARB states and 150K in CARB states) and of course the cost was completely covered by Toyota. I know someone in a non-CARB that the battery went out at 102K miles. Toyota covered 100% of the expense even though it was technically outside of warranty. There are people that have had them fail in the 120K to 150K range where Toyota will completely cover the battery (~$2K) and you just pay labour ($600-$800). However, most people including myself have 0 issues with them. The "average" replacement comes around 250K miles, but there are taxis out there (highest abuse scenario) with 400K or more miles on them with the original battery. And replacements can be had for $300-$400 from a salvage pull (most Prii are wrecked by physical traffic accidents, the batteries are still perfectly fine) and takes about an hour to install yourself. A rebuilt option is around $1200-$1800 depending on location.

When the battery does go out, it just swings from empty to full much more frequently so the gas engine will run more frequently, not all the time.

Let's try and stay factual here...

 

[Valdemar]

Annual battery check is free only for 2 years, I wouldn't be surprised that stealerships will bill it as 1hr labor, and at their rates expect to pay more than $100 for it. It's likely more than what you'd pay for Prius oil changes as its service manual calls for 10000 mile oil change intervals.

 

[Valdemar]

Disagree, per my case and local incentives.

All these numbers mean nothing until you know how much you can get for your used Leaf should you decide to sell it. If you plan to keep it indefinitely it may pay off, just remember that if the battery fails or degrades beyond acceptable level you will have to replace it unlike with the Prius. Also, any other major out-of-warranty EV system component failure will likely have to be addressed at a dealership, and that will make an additional dent in your savings. Also insurance, YMMV but I'm paying more for my Leaf than for a Subaru Tribeca we also own.

 

[Phatcat73]

Re: factual...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071391_life-after-death-what-happens-when-your-prius-battery-dies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re insurance. I'm paying less with the Leaf, $660 yr, but had to shop around and switch from State Farm, who initially raised my rate 50%. Now with nationwide.

 

[davidcary]

Disagree, per my case and local incentives.

All these numbers mean nothing until you know how much you can get for your used Leaf should you decide to sell it. If you plan to keep it indefinitely it may pay off, just remember that if the battery fails or degrades beyond acceptable level you will have to replace it unlike with the Prius. Also, any other major out-of-warranty EV system component failure will likely have to be addressed at a dealership, and that will make an additional dent in your savings. Also insurance, YMMV but I'm paying more for my Leaf than for a Subaru Tribeca we also own.

Except that the Prius is not street legal without a battery. Sure it will drive but you can't register it. Any Prius hybrid system problem would likely need work at a dealership (ok, maybe not in CA but anywhere else) and it is very robust but more complicated than the Leafs.

Leaf's EV system has been pretty darn reliable and guessing that it will cost more than a Prius is just a guess.

Ok - lastly - who really wants to drive a Prius vs a Leaf?