If Nissan/Infiniti built the Tesla Model S...

[evmike]

Leaf won't brick! That nixed my interest in Tesla and perhaps even eRAV in the future.

Tesla has solved the bricking issue on the Model S.

" For example, a Model S battery parked with 50 percent charge would approach full discharge only after about 12 months. Model S batteries also have the ability to protect themselves as they approach very low charge levels by going into a “deep sleep” mode that lowers the loss even further. A Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge. At that point the car can still sit for many months. Of course you can drive a Model S to 0 percent charge, but even in that circumstance, if you plug it in within 30 days, the battery will recover normally."

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/plug-it

 

[TEG]

...All models support 20 kW 240 V AC charging as well which is much more than the 3.3 or 6.6 kW charging for the LEAF.

Small nit, but base Model S will likely come with a 10kW charger, and getting to 20kW will be an optional upgrade.
(2nd charger module run in parallel.)

 

[Herm]

(2nd charger module run in parallel.)

I still think that would be a neat dealer installed option for Nissan.. there has to be plenty of room under the trunk charger hump for two chargers. You could get a 13kW charging setup at home, and still fall under the j1772 spec... forget about crappy broken down Chademo chargers.

 

[qwk]

It is not just about capacity but the load on the pack. If you put a Telsla drive in a LEAF it would need cooling.

Not necessarily. If you take another identical Leaf pack and parallel it with the existing, then you have have the potential to have twice the output power without stressing the cells any differently. A Leaf pulls about 250 amps average on hard acceleration, and it's got a ~65 amp hour pack, so that's just under 4C. Going to a 130ah pack would give us 500 amps. Then we take another Leaf transaxle and put in the back for a 4-wheel drive Super-Leaf!

OT, but an electric supercar with 4 motors (1 per wheel) could do all kinds of magic torque vectoring, that would be fun!

-Phil

EVDRIVER is right. Nissan wouldn't be able to pull 1200 amps out of a double capacity air cooled leaf pack and still have a battery warranty.

 

[Ingineer]

EVDRIVER is right. Nissan wouldn't be able to pull 1200 amps out of a double capacity air cooled leaf pack and still have a battery warranty.

Where does that figure come from?!? The most a Roadster drive would pull would be about 650 amps. Keep in mind motor current can drastically exceed battery current, so while the motor may see 1200 amps, this is at a lower overall voltage, (the controller is in buck mode) so the battery amps are much less.

-Phil

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I was happy to hear that the S comes with every adapter, including a CHAdeMO... the cars charger being able to work with pretty much whatever you feed it! As an answer to what if Nissan built the Model S, I think it's fair to say it would not have universal adaptability... and it should. Also, my personal opinion is that TMS is worthwhile, giving consistent performance and protecting the battery.

the other surprise was that Elan alluded to how the car is built with the ability to swap the battery in less than a minute. Reading the tea leaves, the super charger stations are going to have solar and a battery swap option. Elan Musk is intoxicating, if he can pull all this off, Tesla is going to do very well!

I personally do not see why Nissan/Infiniti would not offer a range of battery packs. there are many folks, myself included who would probably be willing to pay the cost of double or triple the mileage. A nice big pack would be quite happy being cycled near the middle, allowing for a healthy around town range and allowing the battery to be babied most of the time, giving it a very long life, which, IMHO is going to turn out to be a problem for Nissan's current battery pack in at least hot climates.

 

[grommet]

I was happy to hear that the S comes with every adapter, including a CHAdeMO

Uh, that would be incorrect. The Tesla S is only compatible with deployed L2 standards, and it's own proprietary Supercharger solution.

 

[evmike]

I was happy to hear that the S comes with every adapter, including a CHAdeMO

Uh, that would be incorrect. The Tesla S is only compatible with deployed L2 standards, and it's own proprietary Supercharger solution.

I think Tesla said they will support 120 and 240 V wall outlets and J1772.

I don't think they have said they will or they won't support a CHAdeMO adapter. I would guess it depends how many actually get deployed. So far they are way behind and the new J1772 DC plug is challenging the future of CHAdeMO in the US.

The amazing thing is how small and simple the Tesla connector is and it delivers 90 kW when the huge and clumsy CHAdeMO is delivering 50 kW.

 

[grommet]

I think Tesla said they will support 120 and 240 V wall outlets and J1772.

Yes, for the US market... they include 120 V, 240 V (dryer plug) and J1772 adapters with the Tesla S... much like the Tesla Roadster.

My point was simply that the S does NOT support CHAdeMO, or any other DC charge solution, beyond their own Supercharger. It does not "come with every adapter" like GlaslessInSeattle wrote.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

At 53 minutes into the meeting (link below), Elan answers a question about charging standards. He says "the model S will be able to charge anywhere… it can take whatever you can feed it." It appears he is referring to CHAdeMO as the "big ugly" and clearly states they are offering an adapter for it. maybe he is referring to the SAE standard and if so, is in abject denial about DC QC's being the here and now standard. I do not see how he could make a statement like this and ignore the many DC fast chargers that are going in on the west coast. It would basically be tantamount to a big lie and I just don't see how he thinks he can get away with that. Saying the car "will be able to charge anywhere" is a pretty wide open statement and is absolutely foolish if he is excluding the only fast chargers in the ground at this point.

http://www.teslamotors.com/2012shareholdermeeting

I think Tesla said they will support 120 and 240 V wall outlets and J1772.

Yes, for the US market... they include 120 V, 240 V (dryer plug) and J1772 adapters with the Tesla S... much like the Tesla Roadster.

My point was simply that the S does NOT support CHAdeMO, or any other DC charge solution, beyond their own Supercharger. It does not "come with every adapter" like GlaslessInSeattle wrote.

 

[palmermd]

At 53 minutes into the meeting (link below), Elan answers a question about charging standards. He says "the model S will be able to charge anywhere… it can take whatever you can feed it." It appears he is referring to CHAdeMO as the "big ugly" and clearly states they are offering an adapter for it. maybe he is referring to the SAE standard and if so, is in abject denial about DC QC's being the here and now standard. I do not see how he could make a statement like this and ignore the many DC fast chargers that are going in on the west coast. It would basically be tantamount to a big lie and I just don't see how he thinks he can get away with that. Saying the car "will be able to charge anywhere" is a pretty wide open statement and is absolutely foolish if he is excluding the only fast chargers in the ground at this point.

http://www.teslamotors.com/2012shareholdermeeting

My take on the comments was a little different. My read was that he referred to the big ugly as the J1772 connector and that all the adapters was in reference to common 240 volt receptacles and the j1772. Essentially they can accept power to their on-board charger from anywhere. With regard to DC charging my take is that he is ONLY fitting the Model S with communications to the Tesla Supercharger.

My hope is that Tesla opens up their communication protocol to the folks at Nissan so that Nissan can design a communications board that can go into the Leaf. It is a big dream, but if your going to dream, dream big. Second best solution is that Ingineer gets a hold of the communications protocol and develops a board for us to install into our Leafs....at the risk of loosing our extensive battery capacity warranty (which I'm not worried about because I know he will put in logic for all the necessary precautions...just like the ChaDeMo does currently).

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

here's the actual transcript of the conversation:
Question: “Quick question on the charging interface, about a month ago, almost all auto makers came together and announced a new joint standard for AC/DC charging. I know you have your own, and this might not be important for the first 20-40,000… pick a number of cars but over the longer run, to drive mass market deployment, might it not be awkward to be the only guy who might not be onboard with ah … of all the ways to differentiate this might not be the preferred item (way). "

Elan's answer: “the model S will be able to charge anywhere, the onboard charging system is very in touch and highly adaptive, it can adapt to any input current and voltage you can feed it. the adapters for the various standards around the world… come with the car.”


There is no question in my mind that Elan is either suggesting that the charger can handle DC and that the car comes with adapters for all standards. Clearly, CHAdeMO is the only existing DC fast charging standard globally, so if he didn't meant that, then he goofed in a big way, so much so to appear misleading to his stakeholders. It's just hard to believe Elan would be this foolish. If the S does indeed come with a CHAdeMO adapter, it's back on my list for consideration in the future.

At 53 minutes into the meeting (link below), Elan answers a question about charging standards. He says "the model S will be able to charge anywhere… it can take whatever you can feed it." It appears he is referring to CHAdeMO as the "big ugly" and clearly states they are offering an adapter for it. maybe he is referring to the SAE standard and if so, is in abject denial about DC QC's being the here and now standard. I do not see how he could make a statement like this and ignore the many DC fast chargers that are going in on the west coast. It would basically be tantamount to a big lie and I just don't see how he thinks he can get away with that. Saying the car "will be able to charge anywhere" is a pretty wide open statement and is absolutely foolish if he is excluding the only fast chargers in the ground at this point.

http://www.teslamotors.com/2012shareholdermeeting

My take on the comments was a little different. My read was that he referred to the big ugly as the J1772 connector and that all the adapters was in reference to common 240 volt receptacles and the j1772. Essentially they can accept power to their on-board charger from anywhere. With regard to DC charging my take is that he is ONLY fitting the Model S with communications to the Tesla Supercharger.

My hope is that Tesla opens up their communication protocol to the folks at Nissan so that Nissan can design a communications board that can go into the Leaf. It is a big dream, but if your going to dream, dream big. Second best solution is that Ingineer gets a hold of the communications protocol and develops a board for us to install into our Leafs....at the risk of loosing our extensive battery capacity warranty (which I'm not worried about because I know he will put in logic for all the necessary precautions...just like the ChaDeMo does currently).

 

[surfingslovak]

George, I'm pretty sure that Elon was referring to level 2 adapters. The size and profile would fit the description. The possibility of a CHAdeMO adapter was discussed at some length on the Tesla forum. While Elon was vague enough not to close the door, it's doubtful that it will be available with the cars to be delivered later this month. We will see soon enough.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

then he simply can not honestly say in reference to a question specifically on AC/DC charging that "it can adapt to any input current and voltage you can feed it."

George, I'm pretty sure that Elon was referring to level 2 adapters. The size and profile would fit the description. The possibility of a CHAdeMO adapter was discussed at some length on the Tesla forum. While Elon was vague enough not to close the door, it's doubtful that it will be available with the cars to be delivered later this month. We will see soon enough.

 

[surfingslovak]

then he simply can not honestly say in reference to a question specifically on AC/DC charging that "it can adapt to any input current and voltage you can feed it."

Please, I really don't see a reason to argue about it. I hope we can both agree that corporate executives can be famously and deliberately vague. If there is going to be a QC adapter, I will be pleasantly surprised. Meanwhile, I'm not going to evaluate the semantics of his every word to gauge the relative possibility of such outcome. I doubt that it's worth doing.

 

[evnow]

I don't know why you say Tesla S is not QC friendly?

Because their 40 kWh version can't handle it.

 

[qwk]

EVDRIVER is right. Nissan wouldn't be able to pull 1200 amps out of a double capacity air cooled leaf pack and still have a battery warranty.

Where does that figure come from?!? The most a Roadster drive would pull would be about 650 amps. Keep in mind motor current can drastically exceed battery current, so while the motor may see 1200 amps, this is at a lower overall voltage, (the controller is in buck mode) so the battery amps are much less.

-Phil

I believe the model S performance Battery draw is 1200 amps, and the 85kwh pack draw is 900 amps.
The roadster had a 185kw motor the model S has a 300kw motor for the non-performance and a 324kw
for the performance motor.

 

[Ingineer]

I believe the model S performance Battery draw is 1200 amps, and the 85kwh pack draw is 900 amps.
The roadster had a 185kw motor the model S has a 300kw motor for the non-performance and a 324kw
for the performance motor.

Ok, By my calculations, even the performance S drive in the Leaf would pull about 925 amps. Which I believe a double-Leaf pack could sustain. (Except maybe in Phoenix)

In any event, this is silly speculation, as I seriously doubt anyone is going to do this.

-Phil

 

[qwk]

I believe the model S performance Battery draw is 1200 amps, and the 85kwh pack draw is 900 amps.
The roadster had a 185kw motor the model S has a 300kw motor for the non-performance and a 324kw
for the performance motor.

Ok, By my calculations, even the performance S drive in the Leaf would pull about 925 amps. Which I believe a double-Leaf pack could sustain. (Except maybe in Phoenix)

In any event, this is silly speculation, as I seriously doubt anyone is going to do this.

-Phil

I think the point of all of this is that if nissan wanted to build a performance car that performs on par with the Model S, they would need a cooled pack if they were to use the leaf's battery chemistry.

 

[TomT]

I suspect that if Nissan had it to do over again now, they would use a thermally managed pack even on the current Leaf, based on what has been learned to date...

I think the point of all of this is that if nissan wanted to build a performance car that performs on par with the Model S, they would need a cooled pack if they were to use the leaf's battery chemistry.