If Nissan/Infiniti built the Tesla Model S...

[tbleakne]

then he simply can not honestly say in reference to a question specifically on AC/DC charging that "it can adapt to any input current and voltage you can feed it."

George, I'm pretty sure that Elon was referring to level 2 adapters. The size and profile would fit the description. The possibility of a CHAdeMO adapter was discussed at some length on the Tesla forum. While Elon was vague enough not to close the door, it's doubtful that it will be available with the cars to be delivered later this month. We will see soon enough.

I have listened to the full Elon Musk shareholder presentation in which the question and answer being discussed comes within 10 minutes of the end. I support GaslessInSeattle's interpretation. The "Big Ugly" he is referring to is the CHAdeMO, and he clearly says the Tesla-S will be able to accept any electricity from any source. He also says all necessary adapters will come with the car, which is a welcome change from the over-priced set of optional adapters available for the Roadster, which did not include support for DC.

Much earlier in his main presentation he promises that the Tesla 90kW Super-Charger Network, when announced in detail, will "blow you away." The web site says the 40 kWh battery will not work with this network, and the 60 kW battery's compatibility with it is TBD, so access to the public CHAdeMO and SAE DC will be especially important for these two battery sizes. For obvious business reasons he is front-loading his deliveries with the top-of-the line 85 kWh version, and he is sold-out with 5K planned deliveries of this version in 2012, but he expects to deliver 20K Model-Ss next year. His grand roadmap is to gradually move up in volume and down in price, so it appears he does care about fully supporting the smaller battery sizes.

 

[grommet]

The "big ugly" reference has been Elon's stance on J1772 since day one. (Yes, even before the Frankenplug was proposed.) He dislikes the "standard", form factor... and it's limitations. So they made their own elegant solution...

Relatively recent:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/bucking-trends-tesla-goes-it-alone-on-plug-design/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can tell you for a fact that Tesla S #1, delivered recently, does not have CHAdeMO support, or some magic included adapter. I don't expect next week's deliveries to be any different.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Sorry to hear that, I was getting excited about the S again. there are so many CHAdeMO QC stations going in on the west coast, particularly WA and OR, I doubt we will be buying a non-CHAdeMO compatable vehicle any time soon, which is a shame because the S is so fantastic in so many other ways. Elon's statement that the S is compatible with anything and everything out there just sounded so "Steve Jobs" brilliant, I started having irrational thoughts about buying one!

As the stakeholder questioned, it's hard to imagine being exclusive in this way as not hurting sales on a mass level but maybe they have something so amazing up their sleeve that it won't matter.

The "big ugly" reference has been Elon's stance on J1772 since day one. (Yes, even before the Frankenplug was proposed.) He dislikes the "standard", form factor... and it's limitations. So they made their own elegant solution...

Relatively recent:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/bucking-trends-tesla-goes-it-alone-on-plug-design/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can tell you for a fact that Tesla S #1, delivered recently, does not have CHAdeMO support, or some magic included adapter. I don't expect next week's deliveries to be any different.

 

[grommet]

FYI. Due to popular demand, Telsa now has a more verbose "charging" page: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just in time for the mere mortals that will be taking delivery next week...

 

[palmermd]

FYI. Due to popular demand, Telsa now has a more verbose "charging" page: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just in time for the mere mortals that will be taking delivery next week...

good catch. Just as I suspected. Very nice site. They have done a great job with presenting information about the car. Way Way better than Nissan did with the lousy Leaf site.

 

[Ingineer]

I don't see any mention of a CHAdeMO adapter.

I also don't think active battery cooling will be needed in the near future. The upcoming chemistry improvements will fix the thermal aging issues.

-Phil

 

[N952JL]

I don't see any mention of a CHAdeMO adapter.

I also don't think active battery cooling will be needed in the near future. The upcoming chemistry improvements will fix the thermal aging issues.

-Phil

Phil, what chemistry improvements do you see down the road? I've had my Leaf for about six months now. It handles about 99% of my trips, but only 80% of my miles driven. 1% of my trips equate to 20% of miles driven. What I need is a leaf with a 5 hr @ 65mph range.

 

[sp4rk]

My impression of the AGM discussion was NOT Level related, 1, 2, or 3.

Rather, anyplace you find electricity, use it.

i.e. Find any 110v socket, plug in and wait 7 days for it to charge fully.
find any "oven" socket, and charge up faster, etc.

I am curious ... has anyone on this forum ever taken a poll as to how many members here are Tesla reservation holders as well?

 

[surfingslovak]

Phil, what chemistry improvements do you see down the road? I've had my Leaf for about six months now. It handles about 99% of my trips, but only 80% of my miles driven. 1% of my trips equate to 20% of miles driven. What I need is a leaf with a 5 hr @ 65mph range.

I think many of us would like to see that, but I hope that you realize what this implies? Approximately a 80 to 100 kWh pack, which is what only two EVs offer as of this writing: a fully optioned $100K Model S or $1M Rimac Automobili Concept One. Some very interesting announcements have been made lately, but personally I wouldn't expect a Leaf-like vehicle in this space before the decade is out.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

FYI. Due to popular demand, Telsa now has a more verbose "charging" page: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just in time for the mere mortals that will be taking delivery next week...

"PLUG IN
Anywhere. Seriously. Where there's an outlet, you can charge. The type of outlet or charging station will determine how fast you can charge."

I just don't see how they can say that, it seems very misleading as it simply can't plug in anywhere, particularly at any of the string of DC QC's that are in in WA and OR. With quick charging it would truly be long distance road trip capable. don't get me wrong, it's still very capable and adaptable with any AC plug, but it simply can't be plugged in anywhere, it's a false statement, period.

 

[DaveEV]

Phil, what chemistry improvements do you see down the road? I've had my Leaf for about six months now. It handles about 99% of my trips, but only 80% of my miles driven. 1% of my trips equate to 20% of miles driven. What I need is a leaf with a 5 hr @ 65mph range.

I think many of us would like to see that, but I hope that you realize what this implies? Approximately a 80 to 100 kWh pack, which is what only two EVs offer as of this writing: a fully optioned $100K Model S

Yeah - not going to happen any time soon in an affordable car. Most reasonable EV would probably get you there with 2-3 QC stops. More than 60 minutes of QC on a trip like that quickly increases the inconvenience factor. 2 QC stops and you have to get ~110 miles between stops. 3 QC stops and you can get away with ~80 miles between stops.

That assumes that the stations are positioned in the right spots. I'd guess you'd need around 40 kWh to do it with a car of similar efficiency as the leaf with 3 QC stops. 40 kWh will get you about 115 miles at 65 mph, but to 30-min QC you'll only pick up about 2/3rds that between charges, 75 miles. If you want to limit to 2 stops, you'll need around 50 kWh or more. Only EV capable of this will be the 60 kWh Model S @ $67,400. Optioned out you'll probably spend $75k. At that point, you might as well spend another $10k for the 85 kWh battery which will get you there with 1 QC.

Probably better off renting a hybrid for those long trips - at least until someone develops an easily towable range-extender!

 

[essaunders]

FYI. Due to popular demand, Telsa now has a more verbose "charging" page: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just in time for the mere mortals that will be taking delivery next week...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe Tesla's got 10-30 and 14-30 images reversed in their "adapter guide" (also in the calculator down the page - where I found an image to grab...)

 

[tbleakne]

I can tell you for a fact that Tesla S #1, delivered recently, does not have CHAdeMO support, or some magic included adapter. I don't expect next week's deliveries to be any different.

The new Tesla web pages on charging, referenced above,
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging
have no mention of CHAdeMO, confirming that they are not offering any support at this time. The Tesla S has only one proprietary Tesla connector port, but it must have the ability to pass DC directly to the battery, at least for the 60 kWh and 85 kWh battery sizes, in order to support their Super-Chargers. Therefore it seems technically possible for Tesla to offer a future firmware upgrade that supports either the CHAdeMO or SAE protocol through an external adapter. They already offer an external adapter for J1772 AC, despite Elon's distaste of the "Big Ugly."

In my opinion, not offering this would be a big negative for the car, but with Elon, who knows?

 

[tbleakne]

We got Tony's LEAF charging and headed for the Tesla store, where we had a nice discussion with one of the Tesla reps and we were able to sit in the black Beta Model S that is on display there. We were all suitably impressed, though we noticed that the interior space didn't really seem much larger than the LEAF's interior, especially in the head room department. The Model S has a very comfortable cockpit, though. I did find it difficult to see the front corners of the car and I asked whether front and rear parking sensors were optional. The rep said that only a rearview camera was standard on the car, with a high definition camera optional. I would want front and rear parking sensors on such a beautiful car, especially since IMHO outward visibility isn't a strong suit for the Model S.

Thanks very much for your review, Phil. It took me a while to sense where the front corners of the LEAF were as well, so your suggestion would be very welcome but perhaps not essential.

Tesla clearly has given high priority to low drag, so that It looks like the driver sits quite a bit lower in the Tesla S than in the LEAF. Is it as low as you sit in the Active-E ? I found that sitting in the latter was too low for me.

 

[grommet]

The Tesla Model S sits lower than the ActiveE as I recall... but I didn't compare back to back.

 

[Boomer23]

The Tesla Model S sits lower than the ActiveE as I recall... but I didn't compare back to back.

I found that the Tesla S has a higher seating position than the ActiveE. This makes sense, since the batteries in the Model S are in a box approximately 6 to 8 inches tall that sits beneath the seats, while the batteries in the ActiveE are placed in the front ("engine" compartment), in the tunnel designed for the drive shaft of the gas version of the BMW, and under the rear seats, as I recall. The seats in the BMW are in the normal position where they are in the gas version of the car, which is fairly low.

Tony and I also noticed a rather high step-over height as we stepped into the Model S. It didn't seem to be only due to the height of the under-floor battery box. It seemed that the Model S had an unusually high lower door sill.

I happen to prefer the low seating position of a standard sport coupe such as the ActiveE, which is a direct modification of the BMW 1-Series coupe.

 

[grommet]

Tony and I also noticed a rather high step-over height as we stepped into the Model S. It didn't seem to be only due to the height of the under-floor battery box. It seemed that the Model S had an unusually high lower door sill.

It does. That's probably why I felt like the Tesla S sat lower. I need to find both cars in one place one of these days...