Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Toyota, Nissan, and Honda jointly to support hydrogen station infrastructure development

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150212-h2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This may refer only to Japan, but details are vague/non-existent so it could be worldwide.

The article that I read mentioned only Japan, where their government is throwing gobs of hydrogen bucks around.

Nissan has very recently reinforced their commitment to EV for North America.

Yes, I read articles that said Japan only, and the press release from Toyota only mentions the "Strategic Road Map for Hydrogen and Fuel Cells" released in June 2014 by the Japanese government. The tenor of the press release implies but doesn't definitely state that this is Japan only. OTOH, they do provide an English version of the release, which seems a bit odd if it's going to be Japan-only, so I hedged. Here's the release on Toyota's "Global Newsroom" site: http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/mail/6006916" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's an article on Nissan's Global website, which mentions developments in fuel cells and says

By combining this technology with the EV technology that has already been made into practical use with Nissan LEAF, the development of FCEV that is closer to practical application is becoming a reality.

Unfortunately, no date is given, and it describes power density improvement of 2.5 times for the next generation compared to a 2005-era FC stack. It could date from 2010-2011, or later.

 

[AndyH]

This is one of the best examples I've yet found that shows why we need FCEV.

http://www.tceq.texas.gov/assets/public/implementation/air/terp/ld/2014-LDPLI Wkly Graph.pdf

This grant program started with about $7M - and it's still got a bit more than $5M in it and only about 5 months to go until the program closes.

Why do we think folks aren't buying more BEVs in one of the largest states in the Union, and why are they buying CNG trucks?

 

[DaveEV]

Why do we think folks aren't buying more BEVs in one of the largest states in the Union, and why are they buying CNG trucks?

~50 LPG trucks somehow translates to a substantial amount of demand for FCVs when the LEAF alone outsold the trucks by 10-1?

Every single half-way decent plug-in matched or vastly outsold all the LPG trucks.

I still think a PHEV truck would do great - when does Via Motors start selling their PHEV truck/van in volume?

 

[AndyH]

Why do we think folks aren't buying more BEVs in one of the largest states in the Union, and why are they buying CNG trucks?

~50 LPG trucks somehow translates to a substantial amount of demand for FCVs when the LEAF alone outsold the trucks by 10-1?

Every single half-way decent plug-in matched or vastly outsold all the LPG trucks.

I still think a PHEV truck would do great - when does Via Motors start selling their PHEV truck/van in volume?

ALL of the numbers are low. But not a single one of the BEVs is capable of carrying a load. That GUARANTEES that the most polluting light vehicles on the road continue to burn fossil fuels.

Additionally, it's a lot easier to capture and sequester carbon when methane (fossil or biogenic) is transformed into H2 - and it's nearly impossible to capture it at the vehicle.

VIA motors? :lol: Do you remember which anti-BEV "give me muscle cars and jets or give me death" former GM executive is part of that operation? PHEV does not equal ZEV, regardless.

Seriously - no snark or bashing - we need a viable replacement for trucks. BEVs are here to stay. They'll get better, will grow more range, etc. But even with a next-gen double density battery, trucks are still a bridge too far for BEV. It's not either/or - it's both.

 

[ydnas7]

... But not a single one of the BEVs is capable of carrying a load....

yet a fast BEVs with boot and frunk still has greater range than a slower Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicle with neither frunk, nor boot (its basically a rear access parcel shelf)

EPA range Tesla S-85D AWD compared to Hyundai Tucson Hydrogen

 

[mbender]

... But not a single one of the BEVs is capable of carrying a load....

. . .

Then, in the greatly-reduced-emissions category, we've got offerings from Wrightspeed and (today's newcomer), Lightning Hybrids.

Ok, guilty as charged: there was indeed a little snark in there. ;-)

Bottom line, imho: not only do we need both/and, but probably all-of-the-above as well -- at least to start.

 

[AndyH]

... But not a single one of the BEVs is capable of carrying a load....

yet a fast BEVs with boot and frunk still has greater range than a slower Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicle with neither frunk, nor boot (its basically a rear access parcel shelf)

EPA range Tesla S-85D AWD compared to Hyundai Tucson Hydrogen

You're fighting a completely different fight, ydnas7. As I keep saying - in words and sign language! - is that YOU CAN'T PUT HALF A TON OF RACKS AND TOOL BOXES ON A TESLA AND STILL DRIVE 200 MILES.

Can you?

 

[AndyH]

Ok, guilty as charged: there was indeed a little snark in there. ;-)

LOL Just a little.

 

[DaveEV]

YOU CAN'T PUT HALF A TON OF RACKS AND TOOL BOXES ON A TESLA AND STILL DRIVE 200 MILES.

You can't put a half-ton of racks and tools on an imaginary hydrogen pick-up or van, either. So what's your point? Yelling and putting the text in red doesn't seem to be helping any.

 

[AndyH]

YOU CAN'T PUT HALF A TON OF RACKS AND TOOL BOXES ON A TESLA AND STILL DRIVE 200 MILES.

You can't put a half-ton of racks and tools on an imaginary hydrogen pick-up or van, either. So what's your point?

Really? Not even imaginary racks? :roll:

News flash, sweetheart - the USAF has been using FCEV TRUCKS and VANS to haul tools, supplies, and to tow heavy equipment since at least the 1990s. The fuel cell trucks that can carry a load absolutely DO exist - I've touched them - and there wasn't a unicorn in sight.

And yes, THAT'S been covered in this thread already as well. :roll: :lol:

 

[mbender]

YOU CAN'T PUT HALF A TON OF RACKS AND TOOL BOXES ON A TESLA AND STILL DRIVE 200 MILES.

... the USAF has been using FCEV TRUCKS and VANS to haul tools, supplies, and to tow heavy equipment since at least the 1990s. The fuel cell trucks that can carry a load absolutely DO exist - I've touched them - and there wasn't a unicorn in sight.

Serious question(s), then: why haven't these vehicles made it into the 'civilian' sector? How much did the USAF pay for each vehicle? Are they and/or their technology classified? Are there pictures of them online? If not, please describe them and some of their specs.

Thanks!

 

[AndyH]

Serious question(s), then: why haven't these vehicles made it into the 'civilian' sector? How much did the USAF pay for each vehicle? Are they and/or their technology classified? Are there pictures of them online? If not, please describe them and some of their specs.

Thanks!

We really did cover some of this up thread. There's been a ton of fuel cells deployed for ground power and in vehicles across the military. As far as I know none of it's been classified. The trucks and vans I remember were ground support and maintenance truck and crew vans in Hawaii. They are in civilian service - at at least FedEx and UPS in class 6 duty, and in ports in class 8 service.

http://www.h2journal.com/displaynews.php?NewsID=172
http://www.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123150261

US Air Force - solar hydrogen plant in Hawaii
Fuel Cells, May 28 2009 (The Hydrogen Journal)

- The US Air Force has installed a plant to generate hydrogen from solar power, at Hickam Air Force Base, Hawaii.

It has $1.1m worth of solar panels - 810 solar modules in all. Installation was completed on May 8.

It can produce 146 kW of energy.

The US Air Force expects the system to save $43,000 a year, at current electricity costs of 21 cents per kilowatt hour - (so it will take 25 years to recoup the investment not including cost of capital).

A hydrogen production station has been installed at the base since Nov 2006 at a cost of $1.5m, but it was not generating hydrogen from solar power until now.

The hydrogen is used to power 7 different vehicles, including a shuttle bus, van and truck.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-060627-012.pdf

Hybrids & Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles

Hybrid vehicles and equipment use both generators
and stored energy, such as batteries, to meet
peak requirements. Our inventory of in-service
and demonstration hybrid vehicles includes a
diesel-electric Harland tow vehicle at Selfridge
ANGB, Mich., and Robins AFB, Ga; a dieselelectric
flight line support van at Hickam AFB,
Hawaii; a hydrogen-electric-powered fuel cell bus
at Hickam AFB; and a hydrogen fuel cell crew van
at Hickam AFB.
Additionally, there are concept demonstrators and
prototype vehicles being designed and manufactured
by industry. These new vehicles include
a hybrid R-11 aircraft refueling truck, fuel-cellpowered
aircraft tow tractors, fuel-cell-powered
cargo loaders and a hybrid bomb lift.

Here's some GM/Army work - including pickup trucks:
http://www.greenbiz.com/blog/2013/10/03/gm-intensifies-armys-hydrogen-fuel-cell-research

Some Hawaii vehicles have Exportable Power Take-Off (EPTO) capability, allowing them to serve as 25 kW emergency mobile generators, said Charles Freese, GM's general director of global fuel cell activities.

"This is enough power to provide electricity to a small subdivision or an emergency field base," he added. "...

Fuel cells are attractive to the military because they have 2.3 times the efficiency of conventional powertrains and take around three minutes to refuel in spite of their high energy density. In particular, the stealth aspects are appealing: They're quiet and have a low thermal footprint, which is good for combat usage.

Forget Hyundai - GM's had Equinox FCEV on the road since 2007. No, not production, but real FCEV in civilian hands. They've traveled more than 3 million miles.
http://www.worktruckonline.com/chan...nox-fuel-cell-fleet-hits-3-million-miles.aspx

FedEx vans get fuel cell range extender (here's a modern version of a cargo carrying van - BEV isn't enough).
http://www.worktruckonline.com/chan...to-extend-range-of-fedex-electric-trucks.aspx

Latham, N.Y.-based Plug Power Inc. is developing hydrogen fuel cell range extenders for 20 FedEx Express electric delivery trucks, which would allow the vehicles to cover nearly double the territory.

The project is being funded by a U.S. Department of Energy grant announced in December to spur development of commercial fuel-cell technology.

The range extenders would be incorporated into an electric delivery truck produced by Smith Electric Vehicles, a Plug Power spokesperson confirmed. FedEx Express has been using Smith's all-electric Newton Step Van in the U.S. since mid-2012.

The hybrid vehicles produced by the project will be powered by lithium-ion batteries and a 10-kilowatt Plug Power hydrogen fuel cell system.

Currently, electric delivery trucks are limited to traveling about 80 miles on a charge. Doubling the vehicle's range should expand the role of electric-powered delivery trucks, as parcel delivery trucks, taxis, post office trucks, and port vehicles, according to Plug Power.

"Early customer experiences with electric delivery vehicles have been overwhelmingly positive," said Andy Marsh, Plug Power's CEO. "But only 1 percent of these vehicles are electric today. We think that this range extender provides the added distance and quick refueling capabilities needed to really grow this market."

http://htdc.org/hcatt.html

Accomplishments / On-going Projects
1999 - A project initiated to make Hawaii the first EV Ready State with rapid charging infrastructure.
2001 - The overall administrator of Hyundai Motor Company's "safe harbor test site" for a fleet of 15 NiMH battery-powered Hyundai Santa Fe electric sport utility vehicles.
2004-2009 - The development and introduction of the first fuel cell powered vehicle, a 30-foot shuttle bus was demonstrated in Hawaii and the Air Force. Additional fuel cell vehicles followed: Step Van, MB-4 Aircraft Towing Vehicle, Ford Ranger Electric Pick-Up Truck, Light Cart.
2006 - The development and installation of a modular/deployable hydrogen production and dispensing station.
2009 - The installation of a 146 kW photovoltaic array to power the hydrogen station
2010 - Partnership with Army to evaluate a fleet of ten Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine Ford Escapes, and GM Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered SUVs.
2011 - Five 10 kW vertical axis wind turbines were tested to supplement the PV array in powering the hydrogen station, but the turbines failed in high winds and the project was halted in 2012
- HCATT has entered into a partnership with the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute and The U.S. National Park Service to demonstrate fuel cell powered shuttle busses in Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. The two busses will be zero emission, hydrogen fuel cell/battery powered hybrid electric buses designed to operate in potentially damaging sulfur laden air (harmful to fuel cell technology) to demonstrate viability of environmentally friendly tours for the millions of annual visitors to the park.
2012 - Began analysis and re-design of a National Guard Fighter Jet Hangar to Net Zero Energy consumption (Efficient and supported by all renewable energy sources).
- Supported the PACOM “SPIDERS” Joint Smart Micro-grid Project at Hickam AFB
2013 - Delivered a hydrogen fuel cell powered R-12 refueling truck to Joint Base Pearl Harbor – Hickam (JBPHH) to demonstrate the viability of complex fuel cell technology on the flight line.
- HCATT and USHybrid delivered a 25 passenger fuel cell powered Crew Bus to JBPHH to showcase hydrogen fuel cell technology to aircrew and visitors transiting JBPHH
- In the shop are a hydrogen powered C-17 tug to demonstrate the high torque of hybrid electric hydrogen fuel cell flight line technology, a hydrogen powered Weapons Loader for the Fifth Generation F-22 Raptor fighter along with advanced medium sized wind turbine technologies supporting renewable energy infrastructure at JBPHH.

http://htdc.org/fuel-cell-powered-vehicles.html

This is just a small taste - there's more up thread and more in the wild.

Ok ok - in case anyone NEEDS this to ease their digestion, here's a final picture:

 

[mbender]

^^^ Thanks. I came to the thread "late", and might have looked back if there were a way to modify how many posts per page are displayed*. One question did remain unanswered, however: How much did the USAF pay for each vehicle? Perhaps that is classified? Unlike "the 99%", the military doesn't exactly have tight constraints on what they can purchase.


* Wouldn't that be a nice option to be able to set?! It might complicate page-linking a little, but nothing that elementary programming techniques couldn't resolve!

 

[Zythryn]

^^^ Thanks. I came to the thread "late", and might have looked back if there were a way to modify how many posts per page are displayed*. One question did remain unanswered, however: How much did the USAF pay for each vehicle? Perhaps that is classified? Unlike "the 99%", the military doesn't exactly have tight constraints on what they can purchase.


* Wouldn't that be a nice option to be able to set?! It might complicate page-linking a little, but nothing that elementary programming techniques couldn't resolve!

Other than in this thread I had never heard of these.
They do, however, fit perfectly with what just about everyone agrees are good applications for fuel cells. Especially in Hawaii.

Mid to heavy duty fleet vehicles that refuel at a central location.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Update on the GM-Honda collaboration on Gen 2 Fuel Cell Propulsion System

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150217-bosco.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ballard expects to provide 10 fuel cell modules for new FTA fuel cell bus programs

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150217-ballard.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[smkettner]

25 year payback not including capital

Can't see this for personal or business use yet. Good to see a government demonstration program. Eventually costs should drop some.

The real payback will be energy independence in time of real oil shortage.

Thanks for the post (repost?)

 

[mbender]

Better a repost than a ripost!

25 year payback not including capital

Can't see this for personal or business use yet. Good to see a government demonstration program. Eventually costs should drop some.

The real payback will be energy independence in time of real oil shortage.

Thanks for the post (repost?)

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Air Products and Suzuki Shokan jointly to develop hydrogen fueling for Japan’s material handling market

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150219-h2mhe.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

It seems maybe a little smoke has been blown up "our six" concerning hydrogen grid use in Germany:

http://energytransition.de/2015/02/how-germany-integrates-renewable-energy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Storage. Energy storage has played almost no role in Germany’s integrating and balancing renewables so far. And many in Germany do not expect storage to play a role in the coming decade, or at least until the share of renewables goes above 40%. Among many experts interviewed, no one pointed to a company that had plans to invest in storage in Germany. Only a few pilot projects exist. And of course, there is interest in household-level storage in conjunction with the “self-consumption” economic model for distributed solar PV. (Note: from 2009-2013, the German government created a “small residential storage” program that provided incentives for distributed customer-side storage (on the customer side of the electric meter), with the aim of fostering self-consumption of distributed solar. However, this program was stopped. (See also the California and Denmark cases for more on storage.)"

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

NEESC releases 2015 hydrogen & fuel cell development plans for eight Northeastern states; power generation and transportation

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150220-neesc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actual development plans by state can be found here: http://www.ccat.us/energy/section/Publications" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

DOE workshop report on common opportunities and challenges in expanding use of H2 and natural gas vehicles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150220-h2ng.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Direct link to the above workshop report from Sandia,

Transitioning theTransportation Sector: Exploring the Intersection of Hydrogen Fuel Cell and Natural Gas Vehicles

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/02/f19/2015-01_H2NG-Report-FINAL.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;