Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread
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TonyWilliams
Well-known member
I'm sure somebody will pop up to tell us why Germany doesn't have hydrogen grid storage, but to that it is "right around the corner"... The storage medium of "the future"... ordained by some book, I'm told.
I'm confused by your answer. Isn't there info in this thread that shows that Germany already has H2 storage in operation, plus large-scale batteries, CAES, and pumped hydro? I don't recall anything here that suggested that Germany's reached the end-state for either renewable generation or storage (though as I said earlier, I've not yet read the entire thread - there's a lot of 'meat' to digest!).TonyWilliams said:
It appears from your article, though, that there's plenty of progress on energy management and the other tools needed to integrate storage. The author seems to recognize that more storage is both necessary and planned.
I did a quick youtube search and there appears to be a H2 generation facility that stores the gas in the natural gas grid. Does anyone know if these projects have been cancelled or re-tasked?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZV6qtl_kY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm_QwF1FZEs[/youtube]
This seems to confirm that the natural gas grid already supports a significant energy storage capability. (I question the suggestion that H2 moved to a fuel station by truck provides 'zero emission' fuel, though, unless the truck's using a fuel cell.)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckux7edN6Tg[/youtube]
edit...fixed Youtube links... thanks mbender!
NanoBot said:
blending natural gas with some hydrogen for use within a pipeline grid that was made for coal town gas (H2 rich gas) is good strategy for a country in a new cold war with its main gas supplier.
but do note, pumped hydro at about 80% roundtrip efficient is far superior to h2 storage for electrity, both from a capital cost and efficiency perspective (approx 2x more efficient)
Germany's H2 electrolysis faces the problem that EVs are starting to get traction there, and are a far more cost effective sink for intermittent electricity use than H2 units. The arrival of VW EVs and PHEVs basically kills of the future of H2 electrolysis.
Many German houses can easily take 22kW power supplies. To hook a Renault ZOE up to domestic 22kW costs about 500 Euros! BMW i series is far more limited because of rules for single phase power supplies.
Anyone know how to get youtube links to work right?
Thanks for the thoughts on Germany and electrics. I think I can see a benefit to having BEVs on the grid during times when there is excess energy to sink - no doubt! What I still wonder about is how one would store enough 'summer' to keep things warm in the winter. I'm not sure BEVs can do that even if every German buys one. Germany seems to be testing many of the 'energy Lego' pieces needed to replace the current paradigm, not evolve or slightly improve it.
Sorry for the departure...back on topic, I guess.
Thanks for the thoughts on Germany and electrics. I think I can see a benefit to having BEVs on the grid during times when there is excess energy to sink - no doubt! What I still wonder about is how one would store enough 'summer' to keep things warm in the winter. I'm not sure BEVs can do that even if every German buys one. Germany seems to be testing many of the 'energy Lego' pieces needed to replace the current paradigm, not evolve or slightly improve it.
Sorry for the departure...back on topic, I guess.
mbender
Well-known member
Omit the 's' from 'https'. Here are the three from your post above.NanoBot said:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZV6qtl_kY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm_QwF1FZEs[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckux7edN6Tg[/youtube]
NanoBot said:
different countries have different START dates for when vehicle electrification starts in earnest, for most of the world it was the arrival of the iMiev or LEAF/Volt, other places it the arrival of the Tesla model S, some places it was even the arrival of Outlander PHEV. For Germany it the arrival of the VW range of plug in vehicles.
going forward expect the German H2 production to be strategically relevant for energy security vis Russia, (ie a form of chemical storage whose main use is heat production)
but
for electricity time shifting, no.
time of day charging of EVs will change the grid, 10kWH of storage per vehicle on a country wide basis transforms the grid fundamentally.
in short
H2 storage for electricity is DOA, BEVs kill the rational that off peak energy must be wasted on low efficiency activities, the ramp up in EVs complements the ramp up in intermittent renewable.
BEVs don't kill the rational for H2 for blending with NG, its always good to reduce energy imports from others.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
ydnas7 said:
We should have Andy on here shortly for some smack down...
You missed out the nuclear equation to why this H2 and NG can't just be replaced.
Great synopsis.
mbender
Well-known member
Where's AndyH when we "need" him? 
NB: that would be rationale (below). ;-)
NB: that would be rationale (below). ;-)
ydnas7 said:
AndyH
Well-known member
LOL Thanks. I'm pretty sure drees doesn't put me in the 'need' category - unless its for more of his misguided ban practice. :lol:mbender said:Where's AndyH when we "need" him?
I agree that BEV and FCEVs on the grid will change it, but full synergy isn't available until V2G is deployed, as the grid needs both 'takers' and 'givers' for stabilization. I've reported on V2G tests in the US, Germany, and Austria - that piece of the puzzle's being worked. I think we highlighted the ability of a V2G capable FCEV to support the grid as well (kick's a regular BEV's tuckus in a big-dog way in terms of supplying energy, but can't receive excess energy directly).ydnas7 said:
As for the rest, you're welcome to your view - absolutely! Nothing personal at all! I'm looking at the problem through the lenses of an information analyst, though, which requires putting my own views aside as I try to understand the info that's available for digestion. For that reason, considering that Germany's running their transition, not California, I'm keeping my money on the people in Germany that are telling us exactly how and why they use H2 today on their current 'hybrid' grid, and how it'll be used 'tomorrow' when the 19th century grid is replaced by the TIR distributed system. E-On, the German parliament, the EU guidance, and the many different projects in various stages of implementation trump anything we here might think or believe.
Remember if you care to that the German natural gas 'grid' - the existing grid - already in place, already in use, and one that needs zero upgrades - can store enough H2 to run the entire country for six months of winter after being 'charged' with summer wind and solar. If you can't agree that that's some seriously significant temporal shifting, then I think we should give up trying to communicate right now.
GRA
Well-known member
Via GCC:
Note that this is not one of the range-extended postal delivery vans based on the Kangoo Z.E., described upthread.
Not car related, but interesting:
From the article:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150224-laposte.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that this is not one of the range-extended postal delivery vans based on the Kangoo Z.E., described upthread.
Not car related, but interesting:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150224-fcopower.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From the article:
GRA
Well-known member
Re V2G and energy storage in in California:AndyH said:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150224-sdge.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The problem I see with V2G is that, given current limited cycle life of BEV batteries (PEM fuel cells too, FTM) and their high cost, how many people are going to be willing to give up some of that for grid stabilization/storage? ISTM most people would put a pretty high price on the use of their batteries/fuel cells this way, which may render it uneconomic. A smart grid with demand response strikes me as being much more acceptable.
AndyH
Well-known member
I think that 'how many people...' is the wrong question, just as I think that most people's arbitrary price decisions and lack of business sense makes them poor judges of value.GRA said:
The first problem I see is that most people really don't understand what a 'cycle' means. Most of those don't understand that a BEV cycle (charge, drive until empty, recharge) is not the same as a grid power pulse 'cycle' that concludes in fractions of a second and removes and quickly replaces very little energy from the battery. Aging from BEV use is orders of magnitude faster than from grid support.
The second problem is that not all cells are the same, and the differences in cells on the market today (completely ignoring R&D here) can completely change the cost/benefit analysis. (Leaf - maybe 1000-1500 BEV cycles; smart - 2000-1500, LiFePO4 - 3000 to 80% capacity)
Finally, we hit the business side. When one of us buys a BEV today, we pay for the car, we pay for the battery, and we pay for electricity. All the cash flows away from us. When one buys a V2G-equipped BEV, we buy the car, we buy the battery, we pay for the electricity we use, and we are paid for the grid services we provide. That incoming cash flow provides a significant 'subsidy' that reduces our cost of ownership and more than makes up for battery aging.
Demand response is a 1-dimensional solution that favors the power company, not necessarily the BEV owner (just as there's a 'smart grid' on which data flows from the consumer to the energy company, and a 'smart grid' where there's full decentralized and bi-directional data and power sharing).
That's my view as of today. All bets are off for tomorrow, Mr. Keynes.
GRA
Well-known member
ISTM you're assuming that the typical consumer is going to be willing to make rather detailed economic analyses after learning a whole lot of fairly esoteric info re batteries, and I think that's unlikely. Most people are going to want to know two things: how much they are going to be paid, and what effect it will have on the life of their battery. Unless that info is provided to them and guaranteed, I suspect most people won't be willing to take the chance (but I've been wrong before). OTOH, if battery leasing were to become common with the above guarantees, it might make things more acceptable, but that would involve a whole other entity.AndyH said:I think that 'how many people...' is the wrong question, just as I think that most people's arbitrary price decisions and lack of business sense makes them poor judges of value.GRA said:
The first problem I see is that most people really don't understand what a 'cycle' means. Most of those don't understand that a BEV cycle (charge, drive until empty, recharge) is not the same as a grid power pulse 'cycle' that concludes in fractions of a second and removes and quickly replaces very little energy from the battery. Aging from BEV use is orders of magnitude faster than from grid support.
The second problem is that not all cells are the same, and the differences in cells on the market today (completely ignoring R&D here) can completely change the cost/benefit analysis. (Leaf - maybe 1000-1500 BEV cycles; smart - 2000-1500, LiFePO4 - 3000 to 80% capacity)
Finally, we hit the business side. When one of us buys a BEV today, we pay for the car, we pay for the battery, and we pay for electricity. All the cash flows away from us. When one buys a V2G-equipped BEV, we buy the car, we buy the battery, we pay for the electricity we use, and we are paid for the grid services we provide. That incoming cash flow provides a significant 'subsidy' that reduces our cost of ownership and more than makes up for battery aging.
Demand response is a 1-dimensional solution that favors the power company, not necessarily the BEV owner (just as there's a 'smart grid' on which data flows from the consumer to the energy company, and a 'smart grid' where there's full decentralized and bi-directional data and power sharing).
That's my view as of today. All bets are off for tomorrow, Mr. Keynes.
AndyH
Well-known member
Actually, I'm not assuming the typical consumer will, any more than I accept your suggestion that they won't.GRA said:
Some will - and they'll lead others by example. I think it's useful to see how grid-tied PV spread for one possible example.As for the rest, we can already answer the question about the effects on the battery as that info's been posted on this forum for a number of years. I suspect the early adopters will benefit from guarantees, but the rest will follow without them based on the increasing volume of testimonials.
Sandia Labs eval of LiFePO4 cells in both BEV and grid stabilization duty:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=376900#p376900
Paper:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3b8zfm0m2ajylx5/SANDIA2008-5583_PSI.pdf?dl=0
Eval of cells used in smart Electric Drive
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=328394#p328394
Paper:
http://www.energiemetropole-leipzig...Tec_Energie_Metropole Leipzig_Battery_Tim.pdf
The PSOC is already a standard part of the battery evaluation process, is the intended take-away.
GRA
Well-known member
Thanks for those, I either hadn't seen the first one or had forgotten about it. Don't have time right now to read them fully, but from what the abstract says I'm not sure what the paper on the LiFePo4 cell is supposed to show us. I'm a fan of that chemistry for its cycle life and thermal stability, but the 2014 Spark aside no one is using it in cars in this country. And even in that test it loses 10-15% in 2,000 cycles and 20% after ~8,000 cycles, and that's aside from any use in a car.AndyH said:
ISTM the question is, are any car manufacturers going to be willing to provide capacity warranties that cover V2G use, when it's their money? Not saying it can't be done, but I expect it will take some time to work out the economics of all this and figure out who owes what to whom. I do think battery leasing would make the whole thing easier.
GRA
Well-known member
Via GCC:
Via ievs.com:
There are a couple of photos here showing the cooling radiators sans the body. I assume that most of the people following this thread already understand the fuel cell technical basics explained in the video, so you can skip that. There are a couple more videos showing Mirai production linked in this article, for those who are interested:
Sadly, it's still fugly.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/mcphy-energy-and-de-nora-partner-on-electrolyzers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Via ievs.com:
http://insideevs.com/toyota-mirai-explained-engineering-explained-video/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are a couple of photos here showing the cooling radiators sans the body. I assume that most of the people following this thread already understand the fuel cell technical basics explained in the video, so you can skip that. There are a couple more videos showing Mirai production linked in this article, for those who are interested:
http://insideevs.com/behind-scenes-toyota-mirai-production-3-made-per-day-videos-images/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sadly, it's still fugly.
smkettner
Well-known member
Yea I can't wait to see what the utility would actually pay for my car to supply some power.
The utilities already seem to be resisting expansion of net metering fairly strong.
The utilities already seem to be resisting expansion of net metering fairly strong.
AndyH
Well-known member
I think 'we' lose more good info on the forum than we're able to keep track of. I know I spend waaaay too many hours trying to keep track of things in the hopes that the "MNL Span of Forgetting" can be extended a bit.GRA said:
The LiFePO4 paper is a full report of a cell evaluation by the Sandia national lab. It gives a good look at the types of testing a cell manufacturer requests when contracting for an independent and industry-standard evaluation because that's exactly what that paper is. It will show accelerated degradation from full-cycle tests, and it defines and shows the relative lack of degradation after accelerated grid support testing.
Who owes what to whom is already solved as well - it's part of the V2G process. The box tracks flows, collects real-time grid support services costs, and does all the math. I'll see if I can find the links to the US east coast V2G real-world testing...something else lost on the board somewhere.
walterbays
Well-known member
Suppose AndyH is right that grid stabilization use taxes a battery much less than EV use. The utilities will know that far better than consumers, and will be able to accurately price the cost to the battery and the value to the grid.GRA said:
What if your utility offered you this deal? Sell them your battery and they'll lease it back to you. For your payment you get a guaranteed level of battery capacity for term of the lease, battery replacement if needed, preferential electricity rate for charging, preferred access to CHAdeMO equipped parking spaces near your work, and guaranteed state of charge when you depart that space.
The biggest V2G problem I see is that it doesn't work unless lots of cars remain connected through bi-directional chargers for much of the day, installed and connected CHAdeMO chargers are relatively expensive and scarce. So would V2G be of sufficient benefit to the grid to pay for all the new charging infrastructure needed? I'm skeptical. But if so, a side effect of V2G would be ample public charging infrastructure and the end of range anxiety.
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