Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[AndyH]

The biggest V2G problem I see is that it doesn't work unless lots of cars remain connected through bi-directional chargers for much of the day, installed and connected CHAdeMO chargers are relatively expensive and scarce. So would V2G be of sufficient benefit to the grid to pay for all the new charging infrastructure needed? I'm skeptical. But if so, a side effect of V2G would be ample public charging infrastructure and the end of range anxiety.

I don't recall reading anything that gives a threshold for the US grids, but rough numbers have been reported for the German and Swiss grids for an 'end state' 100% renewable Third Industrial revolution plan. Rifkin reported that they don't need any specific car to stay connected - they just need about 25% of the vehicle fleet (BEV and FCEV) to be connected at any one time to more than cover the very short duration grid stabilization mission as well as the minute by minute/hour by hour variability of a grid powered by about 80% wind and PV.

I haven't seen a peer reviewed paper on this though, just info related by the primary architect of the program (Rifkin) and validation from vendors supplying equipment and E-on, the German energy provider that's actively transitioning their energy supply business to fit the replacement paradigm.

 

[walterbays]

they just need about 25% of the vehicle fleet (BEV and FCEV) to be connected at any one time

That's the cost problem. For example in San Diego there are about 10,000 EV's and about 20 fast chargers. To be able to have 25% of the fleet connected would require 2,500 fast chargers, which I don't see happening as much as I'd enjoy it. A typical CHAdeMO installation costs about $50,000 ( http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=357539#p357539 ) so to fund 25% fleet connection would impose a cost of $12,500 per vehicle.

Probably CHAdeMO is overkill for V2G, you don't need 50 kW coming out of the battery and you certainly don't need 50 kW going into the battery. Maybe it would work fine for V2G if you took up to 10 kW from the battery in short bursts when needed, and replenished it over the course of a work day at 3-6 kW. If the SAE combo connector allows for low cost V2G connections that would be a real advantage - the first one - of that standard.

Maybe that would cut the $15-20,000 equipment cost, as well as the cost for provisioning power at the site. There's still the work cutting concrete, trenching, and laying wire. For that it would help if one charging station served 10 connectors instead of a single connector. If V2G ever happens I expect the offer to me will be that I can participate if I walk a few blocks to work from a large cluster of charging stations.

 

[smkettner]

The cost is higher as you need to add a grid tie inverter to that L3 charging station.

At $12,500 per vehicle the utility may as well just get a stationary battery.

Investor owned utility would far prefer to add assets to the pool earning guaranteed returns vs paying EV owners and trying to explain to the regulators how to recoup the costs.
JMHO

Far more likely to add batteries to store solar power for evening peak or overnight. Add right there at the solar panels to use existing inverters.

 

[GRA]

<snip>
Thanks for those, I either hadn't seen the first one or had forgotten about it. Don't have time right now to read them fully, but from what the abstract says I'm not sure what the paper on the LiFePo4 cell is supposed to show us. I'm a fan of that chemistry for its cycle life and thermal stability, but the 2014 Spark aside no one is using it in cars in this country. And even in that test it loses 10-15% in 2,000 cycles and 20% after ~8,000 cycles, and that's aside from any use in a car.

ISTM the question is, are any car manufacturers going to be willing to provide capacity warranties that cover V2G use, when it's their money? Not saying it can't be done, but I expect it will take some time to work out the economics of all this and figure out who owes what to whom. I do think battery leasing would make the whole thing easier.

I think 'we' lose more good info on the forum than we're able to keep track of. I know I spend waaaay too many hours trying to keep track of things in the hopes that the "MNL Span of Forgetting" can be extended a bit.

Yeah, my mental filing cabinets have been full to overflowing for some years now, and stuff just gets lost. Or to put it another way, "Doctor! My brain hurts!"

The LiFePO4 paper is a full report of a cell evaluation by the Sandia national lab. It gives a good look at the types of testing a cell manufacturer requests when contracting for an independent and industry-standard evaluation because that's exactly what that paper is. It will show accelerated degradation from full-cycle tests, and it defines and shows the relative lack of degradation after accelerated grid support testing.

As we all know, there's a huge difference between cell or battery testing in the lab under controlled conditions, and what happens in the real world when large numbers of consumers get their hands on a product and use it, often in ways never foreseen by the testing. Just ask Nissan :lol: Either that, or else their marketers just ignored data that their engineers gave them as well as the comments of pretty much everyone else who was telling them that LiMN2O4 in a hot climate without a TMS was setting them up for a fail (and now VW is making the same claims based on their testing; let's hope they're using a different chemistry). We're unlikely to ever find out which was the case with Nissan barring a lawsuit that includes discovery, or else some tell-all book that won't appear for 30 years or more.

Who owes what to whom is already solved as well - it's part of the V2G process. The box tracks flows, collects real-time grid support services costs, and does all the math. I'll see if I can find the links to the US east coast V2G real-world testing...something else lost on the board somewhere.

It was some dinky little college in New England IIRR, which had a small fleet (single or low-double digits) of LEAFs. I know articles were posted at ievs.com and GCR, and will also look for them. It's a start for real-world data gathering, but hardly in large enough numbers or in a wide enough variety of climates to base any warranty on.

As an example, and just picking numbers out of the air, let's say that you, as a car manufacturer, have allowed for a 1% capacity warranty claim rate when pricing the car, based on limited data from New England. You then find out that using V2G nationwide boosts your claim rate to 4%, costing the program tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars (we're assuming widespread adoption here) spread over thousands of vehicles, and making it unprofitable. What do you do? Stand behind your customers and eat the cost while revising your warranty downwards? Or deny claims, saying that V2G is outside of normal use and voids the warranty, giving you a whole lot of angry customers and lots of negative PR, lawsuits etc.

Given Nissan's practice to date I think we can guess which approach they'd choose, but maybe someone there has finally gotten a clue. I can only hope that other automakers will adopt a different approach, and wait for far better data than anyone has currently before trying this.

 

[GRA]

The problem I see with V2G is that, given current limited cycle life of BEV batteries (PEM fuel cells too, FTM) and their high cost, how many people are going to be willing to give up some of that for grid stabilization/storage?

Suppose AndyH is right that grid stabilization use taxes a battery much less than EV use. The utilities will know that far better than consumers, and will be able to accurately price the cost to the battery and the value to the grid.

What if your utility offered you this deal? Sell them your battery and they'll lease it back to you. For your payment you get a guaranteed level of battery capacity for term of the lease, battery replacement if needed, preferential electricity rate for charging, preferred access to CHAdeMO equipped parking spaces near your work, and guaranteed state of charge when you depart that space. <snip>

As I said, battery leasing makes the whole thing a lot easier, but to make it as simple, straightforward and painless as possible to the consumer, it's easier if the car manufacturer leases the battery to the customer (As Smart and some others offer now). That way, the consumer never sees or cares about lifespan or degradation, just that the battery provides X capacity, and if it doesn't they take it in and exchange it for one that does. Let the utilities and the companies negotiate the price; they've got the best data. Some of the payment gets passed on to the consumer in the form of a lower lease rate, while the company keeps the rest.

 

[ydnas7]

V2G

just making the default charging mode to be end timer is elementary V2G.

think about it
a parc of 100 cars or 100 million cars, recharging their daily 6-18kWH consumption, with an end point of charging banded around early morning coincident electricity demand valley.

zero extra costs, great for wind energy and nukes
removes the value proposition for H2 electrolysis


V2G does not start as 2-way power, but simply as 1 way charging, no warranty issues for that.

 

[GRA]

V2G

just making the default charging mode to be end timer is elementary V2G.

think about it
a parc of 100 cars or 100 million cars, recharging their daily 6-18kWH consumption, with an end point of charging banded around early morning coincident electricity demand valley.

zero extra costs, great for wind energy and nukes
removes the value proposition for H2 electrolysis

V2G does not start as 2-way power, but simply as 1 way charging, no warranty issues for that.

That's not V2G, it's valley filling and, if you squint a lot, demand response assuming ToU metering. As you say, it's easy and a no-brainer.

 

[AndyH]

they just need about 25% of the vehicle fleet (BEV and FCEV) to be connected at any one time

That's the cost problem. For example in San Diego there are about 10,000 EV's and about 20 fast chargers. To be able to have 25% of the fleet connected would require 2,500 fast chargers, which I don't see happening as much as I'd enjoy it. A typical CHAdeMO installation costs about $50,000 ( http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=357539#p357539 ) so to fund 25% fleet connection would impose a cost of $12,500 per vehicle.

Probably CHAdeMO is overkill for V2G, you don't need 50 kW coming out of the battery and you certainly don't need 50 kW going into the battery. Maybe it would work fine for V2G if you took up to 10 kW from the battery in short bursts when needed, and replenished it over the course of a work day at 3-6 kW. If the SAE combo connector allows for low cost V2G connections that would be a real advantage - the first one - of that standard.

Maybe that would cut the $15-20,000 equipment cost, as well as the cost for provisioning power at the site. There's still the work cutting concrete, trenching, and laying wire. For that it would help if one charging station served 10 connectors instead of a single connector. If V2G ever happens I expect the offer to me will be that I can participate if I walk a few blocks to work from a large cluster of charging stations.

Not fast chargers - level 2. V2G box on the car, 240V 30A EVSE, account with the power company, and done.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2095
http://www.cleanfleetreport.com/google-energy-v2g/
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/

 

[AndyH]

Who owes what to whom is already solved as well - it's part of the V2G process. The box tracks flows, collects real-time grid support services costs, and does all the math. I'll see if I can find the links to the US east coast V2G real-world testing...something else lost on the board somewhere.

It was some dinky little college in New England IIRR, which had a small fleet (single or low-double digits) of LEAFs. I know articles were posted at ievs.com and GCR, and will also look for them. It's a start for real-world data gathering, but hardly in large enough numbers or in a wide enough variety of climates to base any warranty on.

Yes, it's a 'dinky little college' - running equipment built by Aerovironment. It's also Google. And Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, and Holland. And the US military. Dinky. More info in the post directly above this.

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/06/15...-power-to-the-electric-grid-in-denmark-10000/

Denmark is going to be the first test market for Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) technology, it was announced yesterday. Electric Vehicle owners will be able sell back power from their EV batteries to the grid, with estimated compensation for EV owners of about $10,000 over the lifespan of the car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

These utilities currently have V2G technology trials:

PG&E, USA, converting a number of company-owned Toyota Prius to be V2G PHEVs at Google's campus
Xcel Energy, USA, converting six Ford Escape Hybrids to PHEVs with V2G [12]

Note that this frequency control project only modulates charging - no energy is removed from the battery.

Completed Projects

Southwest Research Institute
In 2014, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI) developed the first vehicle-to-grid aggregation system qualified by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). The system allows for owners of electric delivery truck fleets to make money by assisting in managing the grid frequency. When the electric grid frequency drops below 60 Hertz, the system suspends vehicle charging which removes the load on the grid thus allowing the frequency to rise to a normal level. The system is the first of its kind because it operates autonomously.[18]

The system was originally developed as part of the Smart Power Infrastructure Demonstration for Energy Reliability and Security (SPIDERS) Phase II program, led by Burns and McDonnell Engineering Company, Inc. The goals of the SPIDERS program are to increase energy security in the event of power loss from a physical or cyber disruption, provide emergency power, and manage the grid more efficiently.[19] In November 2012, SwRI was awarded a $7 million contract from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to demonstrate the integration of vehicle-to-grid technologies as a source for emergency power at Fort Carson, Colorado.[20] In 2013, SwRI researchers tested five DC fast-charge stations at the army post. The system passed integration and acceptance testing in August 2013.[21]

 

[AndyH]

The LiFePO4 paper is a full report of a cell evaluation by the Sandia national lab. It gives a good look at the types of testing a cell manufacturer requests when contracting for an independent and industry-standard evaluation because that's exactly what that paper is. It will show accelerated degradation from full-cycle tests, and it defines and shows the relative lack of degradation after accelerated grid support testing.

As we all know, there's a huge difference between cell or battery testing in the lab under controlled conditions, and what happens in the real world when large numbers of consumers get their hands on a product and use it, often in ways never foreseen by the testing. Just ask Nissan :lol:

I do appreciate what you're saying here about how things change in the real world and I don't at all disagree. That's not the point of the standard tests, though, and it's not the point of linking the papers. The papers show the parameters of a standardized power pulse test, a standard 'BEV' type deep-discharge test, and how those two tests affect cells. That's the on-topic point - that grid stabilization is significantly less stressful on a battery than driving a BEV. It's certainly less stressful than parking a Leaf in Phoenix (or my LiFePO4-filled motorcycle in San Antonio...).

And..well...$10,000 over the life of the car's nothing to sneeze at - that's two free batteries for a smart, after all!

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell drivers in SoCal accumulate more than 238,900 miles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150226-hyundai.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They've delivered something over 60 cars,so that works out to an average of a little less than 4,000 miles/car. Kind of a 'biiiiig deal' press release, but they likened it to the distance from the earth to the moon.

 

[GRA]

Who owes what to whom is already solved as well - it's part of the V2G process. The box tracks flows, collects real-time grid support services costs, and does all the math. I'll see if I can find the links to the US east coast V2G real-world testing...something else lost on the board somewhere.

It was some dinky little college in New England IIRR, which had a small fleet (single or low-double digits) of LEAFs. I know articles were posted at ievs.com and GCR, and will also look for them. It's a start for real-world data gathering, but hardly in large enough numbers or in a wide enough variety of climates to base any warranty on.

Yes, it's a 'dinky little college' - running equipment built by Aerovironment. It's also Google. And Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, and Holland. And the US military. Dinky. More info in the post directly above this.

I wasn't using dinky in a pejorative sense, only to point out that it wasn't some major college or large scale test, and thus a search looking for more renowned institutions was unlikely to turn anything up. I believe it's the University of Delaware [Edit: Okay, now had time to look at some of your links, so UDel seems certain] - see this abstract on "Willingness to pay for V2G EVs and their Contract terms": http://works.bepress.com/george_parsons/32/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and more broadly,

Electric Vehicles as Grid Resources in ISO-NE and Vermont

https://www.veic.org/documents/default-source/resources/reports/evt-rd-electric-vehicles-grid-resource-final-report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which goes into more detail on factors affecting this, and which I just found. Oh, and here's a couple of the articles from a year or two ago I expect we both were thinking of:

Honda Joins Vehicle-to-Grid Technology Demonstration Project in Partnership with University of Delaware and NRG Energy

http://insideevs.com/honda-joins-vehicle-to-grid-technology-demonstration-project-in-partnership-with-university-of-delaware-and-nrg-energy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

Two-Way Charging Electric Vehicles Start To Earn Money From The Grid In The US

http://insideevs.com/two-way-charging-electric-vehicles-start-to-earn-money-from-the-grid-in-the-us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/06/15...-power-to-the-electric-grid-in-denmark-10000/

Denmark is going to be the first test market for Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) technology, it was announced yesterday. Electric Vehicle owners will be able sell back power from their EV batteries to the grid, with estimated compensation for EV owners of about $10,000 over the lifespan of the car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

These utilities currently have V2G technology trials:

PG&E, USA, converting a number of company-owned Toyota Prius to be V2G PHEVs at Google's campus
Xcel Energy, USA, converting six Ford Escape Hybrids to PHEVs with V2G [12]

Note that this frequency control project only modulates charging - no energy is removed from the battery.

Completed Projects

Southwest Research Institute
In 2014, Southwest Research Institute (SwRI) developed the first vehicle-to-grid aggregation system qualified by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). The system allows for owners of electric delivery truck fleets to make money by assisting in managing the grid frequency. When the electric grid frequency drops below 60 Hertz, the system suspends vehicle charging which removes the load on the grid thus allowing the frequency to rise to a normal level. The system is the first of its kind because it operates autonomously.[18]

The system was originally developed as part of the Smart Power Infrastructure Demonstration for Energy Reliability and Security (SPIDERS) Phase II program, led by Burns and McDonnell Engineering Company, Inc. The goals of the SPIDERS program are to increase energy security in the event of power loss from a physical or cyber disruption, provide emergency power, and manage the grid more efficiently.[19] In November 2012, SwRI was awarded a $7 million contract from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to demonstrate the integration of vehicle-to-grid technologies as a source for emergency power at Fort Carson, Colorado.[20] In 2013, SwRI researchers tested five DC fast-charge stations at the army post. The system passed integration and acceptance testing in August 2013.[21]

And, thanks, I'll work my way through all these as I have time. But these are all small scale, short term dem/val projects gathering initial data. Now, since NW Europe (climatically akin to the PNW) is a lousy analog for the climactic variety experienced in the U.S., we need some of these programs to be run with large numbers of vehicles (I'd like to see at least 100 per location, but 1,000 would be better) in places like Phoenix, Duluth/Fargo and Atlanta, for at least three years and preferably five years or more, to get robust data.

 

[AndyH]

And, thanks, I'll work my way through all these as I have time. But these are all small scale, short term dem/val projects gathering initial data. Now, since NW Europe (climatically akin to the PNW) is a lousy analog for the climactic variety experienced in the U.S., we need some of these programs to be run with large numbers of vehicles (I'd like to see at least 100 per location, but 1,000 would be better) in places like Phoenix, Duluth/Fargo and Atlanta, for at least three years and preferably five years or more, to get robust data.

Yes, UDel - I linked to their program page up a few posts:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=413660#p413660
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/

The climate isn't relevant to V2G though - electrons are happy either way. Since V2G is one of the five pillars of the TIR, expect to find the most current info in the EU as they've written the transition into law.

 

[GRA]

And, thanks, I'll work my way through all these as I have time. But these are all small scale, short term dem/val projects gathering initial data. Now, since NW Europe (climatically akin to the PNW) is a lousy analog for the climactic variety experienced in the U.S., we need some of these programs to be run with large numbers of vehicles (I'd like to see at least 100 per location, but 1,000 would be better) in places like Phoenix, Duluth/Fargo and Atlanta, for at least three years and preferably five years or more, to get robust data.

Yes, UDel - I linked to their program page up a few posts:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=413660#p413660
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/

The climate isn't relevant to V2G though - electrons are happy either way. Since V2G is one of the five pillars of the TIR, expect to find the most current info outside the US...

But it is relevant to battery longevity, and thus V2G pricing and battery warranty details.

 

[GRA]

Found the full article instead of just the abstract [Edit Oops, wrong article, from 2010 over willingness to pay for range, reduced charging time etc., same authors]:

Willingness to pay for electric vehicles and their attributes

http://www.udel.edu/V2G/resources/HidrueEtAl-Pay-EV-Attributes-correctedProof.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still looking for a non-payment version of the V2G article.

 

[AndyH]

Let me bring this forward, as it was overcome while editing.

Since V2G is one of the five pillars of the TIR, expect to find the most current info in the EU as they've written the transition into law.

Every BEV on the road built by a major manufacturer is collecting data on how the batteries are performing in different climate. All batteries are evaluated with the industry standard power pulse tests, so that data's available as well. Finally, the info on how to manage V2G is coming from plenty of sources other than just the University of Delaware. I'll still recommend looking to Europe for the best info, however.

 

[AndyH]

I guess this is it, then. Forbes' petroleum and economics analyst says CA is making a mistake promoting H2 - just like it made a mistake promoting "electric cars." (Silly me - of course these electric dreams are drug-induced. :roll: )

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...fornias-hydrogen-vehicle-mandate-a-good-idea/

California’s electric vehicle mandate in the 1990s accomplished little more than teaching that such mandates were a bad idea, and the investment in hydrogen buses should have proved that the state judgment of technological feasibility was lacking.

 

[AndyH]

The climate isn't relevant to V2G though - electrons are happy either way. Since V2G is one of the five pillars of the TIR, expect to find the most current info outside the US...

But it is relevant to battery longevity, and thus V2G pricing and battery warranty details.

Yes, "relevant" - but not nearly as significantly as driving the car. Seems that keeps getting missed or brushed aside. Weather/climate via temperature will affect battery longevity whether the car is driven or not. Worst case for the Leaf (and for my LiFePO4 packs) is sitting charged in a 110 degree garage. Pulling energy out of the pack and discharging it to and holding it around 80% is better for the pack than sitting at 100% or 90%. Again - power pulses are a smaller impact than driving the car. If I recall correctly from the papers I linked, power pulse cycling is also lower impact than simple aging. When it comes to lithium, the battery is going to lose capacity even if we park the car in the garage and NEVER drive it.

If it's gonna 'hurt' anyway, we might as well get some cash flow out of it.

 

[AndyH]

http://www.udel.edu/V2G/resources/V...Noel-McCormack-Applied-Energy-As-Accepted.pdf

Abstract
Fuel expenses, diesel exhaust health externalities, and climate change are concerns
that encourage the use of electric vehicles. Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) policies provide additional
economic incentives. This analysis evaluates the costs and benefits associated with the use of
electric vehicles and determines the cost effectiveness of using a V2G-capable electric school
bus compared to a traditional diesel school bus. Several factors were analyzed, including fuel
expense, electricity and battery costs, health externalities, and frequency regulation market
price. The V2G-capable electric bus provides the school savings of $6,070 per seat in net
present value and becomes a net present benefit after five years of operation. Without
externalities, the net present benefit would be $5,700 per seat. If the entire school district’s
fleet switched to V2G-capable electric buses, the net present savings would be upwards of
$38 million. A sensitivity analysis was conducted to determine how the factors influenced
the costs and benefits. In all cases, purchasing an electric school bus is consistently a net
present benefit. Policies could be set into place to incentivize public school adoption of
electric buses, encourage more efficient batteries, and develop V2G capabilities.

 

[RegGuheert]

If it's gonna 'hurt' anyway, we might as well get some cash flow out of it.

I agree.

Calendar aging is the most significant factor in the LEAF in most climates and applications. Those who drive the most daily miles will get the most overall mileage out of their LEAF batteries. It is certainly a "use it or lose it" type of battery. I would sign up for grid support usage in an instant if the arrangement was reasonable.

That said, I expect both calendar and cycling losses in Li-ion batteries to soon improve to the point where this discussion is a non-issue. The 20X cycling lifetime improvements achieved by adding 5 chemicals to the electrolyte reported by Dalhousie University foretell the near future, IMO.

Coming back to the comparison of H2 FCVs versus BEVs for grid support, I think there are two related-but-different roles that need to be played: One is somewhat short-term grid stabilization while the other is filling in the non-insignificant gaps in energy flow which come from renewable sources, even geographically diverse renewable sources. Where I live, the overnight loads are most significant in the wintertime, sometimes on nights when no wind blows. Since most BEVs have smaller storage capacity and also tend to draw from the grid during the nighttime, I suspect they will not have a signficant role to play here. Simply put, even if it were fully charged at the beginning of the evening, our LEAF could be fully drained within a few hours just due to the load of our own house.

So the question is whether H2 FCVs will be used in this role. On the one hand, they may store more energy on-board, so the owner may be willing to "share" more of this energy overnight before commuting in the morning. But at what price? I do not think the fuel cell suffers calendar-life issues in the same way as the LEAF battery, so there is not a cost to the owner to letting it sit. But they do suffer degradation from use. Also, the utility does not have a means to refill the energy used from an H2 FCV, meaning that if they use a significant quantity of H2 from the tanks, it could become a major inconvenience to the owner.

I guess my conclusion is that neither BEVs nor H2 FCVs will be major players in the provision of grid electricity during the extended periods at nighttime and cloudy/snowy/still weather when renewable generators are not producing much electricity. That energy needs to come from somewhere else.