How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[surfingslovak]

If one DOES end up cooking too quickly in the heat - well then - one may end up being a greater bargain than the other.

Yes, that's the $80,000 question. For what it's worth, there were no reports of dramatic battery capacity loss from Tesla Roadster owners in hot climates. An informal survey conducted over the last 12 months revealed that there is an owner with 10% after 18 months, and another owner with about 15% loss after 3 years. Everyone else did better, and there was strong correlation between miles driven and remaining pack capacity.

Roadster Owner Based Study of Battery Pack Capacity Over Time

Hot climate users, what's your battery degradation level?

 

[hill]

Without wanting to speculate about a technical solution and its feasibility, and I do believe that this might put battery lease back on the agenda. If you look at what Renault is doing in Europe, it would seem reasonable to assume that the monthly lease fee would be around $100. Their European programs are tiered by annual mileage, and I believe that the battery lease agreement has a provision in it, which mandates pack replacement when the capacity has declined about 30%. Do you think that this would be a fair price to pay? This would decouple the battery from the rest of the vehicle, and turn it into a consumable item, which it is.

Two years ago, I would have been disinclined towards this idea. But, in retrospect, it sorta makes sense. And, yes, $100 a month for a battery lease would be an acceptable solution going forward.

ThaT's more Than 5 dollars a day - based on a 5 day work week. Gasoline in a prius doesn't cost that much. Therefore - I'd have to say that this is unacceptable. Bring the cost down. The 50 mile per gallon prius at $4 a gallon sets the standard.

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[surfingslovak]

Two years ago, I would have been disinclined towards this idea. But, in retrospect, it sorta makes sense. And, yes, $100 a month for a battery lease would be an acceptable solution going forward.

ThaT's more Than 5 dollars a day - based on a 5 day work week. Gasoline in a prius doesn't cost that much. Therefore - I'd have to say that this is unacceptable. Bring the cost down. The 50 mile per gallon prius at $4 a gallon sets the standard.

Keep in mind that this is based on Renault's pricing in Europe, and we don't know what kind of figure would make economic sense for Nissan here in the US. Another thing to consider, battery leases in Europe are tiered by mileage. If you don't drive much, the lease is more affordable.

EV Battery Leasing Could Become Norm in Europe

If the Citroen C-Zero (Mitsubishi i) is any guide, a battery lease would lower the upfront purchase price of the vehicle by about 30%. If you applied this model to the 2012 Leaf, it would cost $26K before rebates.

 

[pchilds]

The rebate is based of battery capacity, leased battery = no rebate.

 

[surfingslovak]

The rebate is based of battery capacity, leased battery = no rebate.

Fair enough, but if you don't mind me asking, you know this how? Do you work with any of the legislators? Consider the case of a leased Leaf, Nissan is getting the federal rebate there, and the consumer is still eligible for state and local incentives. I don't see how a vehicle with a leased battery would not qualify for the same type of subsidy, the only question is who will be the recepient. If it's Nissan, then the monthly lease payment should reflect that.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

It's my understanding that Tesla's warranty covers capacity or at least it's up to their discretion to do so.

...But - the real question is whether or not the Tesla battery with liquid cooling will burn up in the extreme arizona heat.
:?
If one DOES end up cooking too quickly in the heat - well then - one may end up being a greater bargain than the other. I'm just sayin' -
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[Volusiano]

the real question is whether or not the Tesla battery with liquid cooling will burn up in the extreme arizona heat.

Not meaning to sidetrack the OT here, but I've been wondering about this.

Liquid cooling works well for ICE because the outside ambient temperature is always much cooler than the internal temperature of the ICE when it's running, even if the outside ambient temperature is 115F in Phoenix.

Liquid cooling may also work for EVs if you're moving and the consumption of battery energy causes the battery pack to get hotter than its idle temperature. It's probably less effective if you're driving in 115F in Phoenix. But as along as the 115F ambient temperature is still a little bit cooler than the internal battery temperature while driving, it still helps.

But how would liquid cooling help if the real problem is that the EV sits out in the sun all day, and the battery absorbs the high heat from the pavement and getting baked while being inactive, causing capacity loss? This is assuming that liquid cooling does not run while the car is sitting idle.

Even assuming that liquid cooling can be turned on automatically while the car is sitting idle, I can't see how the battery can be cooled to less than 115F if that's the ambient temperature is. The best it can do is to keep the battery cooled to 115F instead of letting it cooked to >115F due to the higher heat radiating from the pavement.

My whole point is how can liquid cooling help much anyway if the car sits idle all day long, baked in the sun? Even a Tesla would have the same heat impact as a Leaf being in that same situation, no?

 

[Volusiano]

Yes, that's the $80,000 question. For what it's worth, there were no reports of dramatic battery capacity loss from Tesla Roadster owners in hot climates. An informal survey conducted over the last 12 months revealed that there is an owner with 10% after 18 months, and another owner with about 15% loss after 3 years. Everyone else did better, and there was strong correlation between miles driven and remaining pack capacity.

I wonder if it's because owners who can afford a Tesla usually are rich enough to not have to park their Tesla baked outside in the sun all day while they're at work. So if their Teslas are garaged most of the time, coupled with the fact that they have liquid cooling, it's a combination that works.

But if you have liquid cooling and still have to park out in the sun all day, don't their batteries still get the slow bake?

 

[QueenBee]

Even assuming that liquid cooling can be turned on automatically while the car is sitting idle, I can't see how the battery can be cooled to less than 115F if that's the ambient temperature is. The best it can do is to keep the battery cooled to 115F instead of letting it cooked to >115F due to the higher heat radiating from the pavement.

My whole point is how can liquid cooling help much anyway if the car sits idle all day long, baked in the sun? Even a Tesla would have the same heat impact as a Leaf being in that same situation, no?

I'm sure trying to describe how each of the various liquid cooled EVs work (Under what conditions the various conditions different parts turn on and how each one differs) would take a whole lot of work but the Volt is able to turn on the air conditioning compressor to cool the battery.

 

[Volusiano]

I'm sure trying to describe how each of the various liquid cooled EVs work (Under what conditions the various conditions different parts turn on and how each one differs) would take a whole lot of work but the Volt is able to turn on the air conditioning compressor to cool the battery.

Ah, I can see how this would help (using AC for cooling).

I wonder how long can the Volt use its own battery juice to cool its battery down? Also, whether they'd kick on the ICE generator to supply further power to continue the cooling.

But the Tesla with its much bigger battery pack can probably run the AC much longer. Probably enough for the day while the car sits outside and gets baked.

 

[SanDust]

For what it's worth, there were no reports of dramatic battery capacity loss from Tesla Roadster owners in hot climates. An informal survey conducted over the last 12 months revealed that there is an owner with 10% after 18 months, and another owner with about 15% loss after 3 years. Everyone else did better, and there was strong correlation between miles driven and remaining pack capacity.

Not bad performance for batteries guaranteed to reach EOL in 300 cycles. http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE254.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Reports like these are why I keep saying that if Nissan hadn't physically removed a capacity bar the vast majority of Leaf owners in Arizona would be claiming their battery packs hadn't lost any capacity. People believe what they want to believe, and they'll do that unless you make it impossible for them to deny reality, which is what Nissan has done.

 

[SanDust]

I wonder how long can the Volt use its own battery juice to cool its battery down? Also, whether they'd kick on the ICE generator to supply further power to continue the cooling.

I think Scott in another thread said it would only use the battery pack if the SOC was above something like 75%. However, that wouldn't be the strategy. With a liquid cooled TMS you can heavily insulate the battery pack. You cool the battery when the car is plugged in or turned on, and rely on the insulation to keep the pack cool between those events.

 

[Herm]

I wonder how long can the Volt use its own battery juice to cool its battery down? Also, whether they'd kick on the ICE generator to supply further power to continue the cooling.

The generator wont turn on if the car is unattended, a better idea to just keep the car plugged in.

Volt can use up to 25% of its battery for cooling, and it consumes 200Wh to do so thus it can keep it up for 13 hours. No idea about the Roadster.

 

[mwalsh]

Starting to swing off topic again! :|

 

[hill]

Even assuming that liquid cooling can be turned on automatically while the car is sitting idle, I can't see how the battery can be cooled to less than 115F if that's the ambient temperature is. The best it can do is to keep the battery cooled to 115F instead of letting it cooked to >115F due to the higher heat radiating from the pavement.

My whole point is how can liquid cooling help much anyway if the car sits idle all day long, baked in the sun? Even a Tesla would have the same heat impact as a Leaf being in that same situation, no?

I'm sure trying to describe how each of the various liquid cooled EVs work (Under what conditions the various conditions different parts turn on and how each one differs) would take a whole lot of work but the Volt is able to turn on the air conditioning compressor to cool the battery.

I thought the liquid cooling was like my refridgerator's chilled water in the door - compressor cools the liquid - then the liquid cools you (or EV batteries) - no? Otherwise (like mentioned above) you're just circulating 115 liquid.

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[RegGuheert]

Well, I still feel that Nissan should stop selling the LEAF in certain hot-climate markets and only offer leases instead, just as stated in the OP. I also feel that offering to convert sales to leases would be a good move. Unfortunately, Nissan has not taken ANY steps to reassure their potential future customers that they will stand behind their EVs.

But I must say that for some LEAF owners in hot climates, even a lease is not enough to resolve this issue. Specifically, it seems that some LEAF customers will be unable to get to work before reaching the 18-month point. These cars may need to be parked soon. Unless the owner has another vehicle to drive, they will need to purchase something else.

If they are forced to park their LEAFs, they may find that it will not degrade to the point where it no longer will power the car and could therefore be replaced under the existing warranty.

Frankly, Nissan has created a bad situation by insisting on selling this car in Phoenix. I find it appalling that they are still out their selling this car in Phoenix as if there is no issue. Regardless of whether they have a solution in hand for their current customers, they can stop the growth of the problem immediately. Yet they choose to continue business as usual in Phoenix.

I'm still hopefully this all means they have a solution in hand for the batteries which will become apparent when they release the 2013 models. Only time will tell since Nissan is not telling us anything.

 

[scottf200]

Frankly, Nissan has created a bad situation by insisting on selling this car in Phoenix. I find it appalling that they are still out their selling this car in Phoenix as if there is no issue. Regardless of whether they have a solution in hand for their current customers, they can stop the growth of the problem immediately. Yet they choose to continue business as usual in Phoenix.

It would seem to be a lot more complicated than that. They would have to technically and legally define the conditions/location of where the car "should" (or could) not be sold. "Phoenix" is not precise enough and would not stop others from buy it "outside" of Phoenix. Then you'd have other "hot" places that demanded the same "treatment" or solution ... whatever that turns out to be. A little bit of a slippery slope. Hopefully something is done to treat you folks right. I went to school in Phoenix in a car without A/C. That was fun.

 

[RegGuheert]

It would seem to be a lot more complicated than that. They would have to technically and legally define the conditions/location of where the car "should" (or could) not be sold. "Phoenix" is not precise enough and would not stop others from buy it "outside" of Phoenix. Then you'd have other "hot" places that demanded the same "treatment" or solution ... whatever that turns out to be. A little bit of a slippery slope. Hopefully something is done to treat you folks right.

Agreed. But I think the LEAF is the right solution at this time for very many climates, including the one I live in. This can possibly be handled by adjusting the terms of their warranty to provide some form of relief for the extreme cases.

I went to school in Phoenix in a car without A/C. That was fun.

Hopefully not summer school!

 

[QueenBee]

I'm sure trying to describe how each of the various liquid cooled EVs work (Under what conditions the various conditions different parts turn on and how each one differs) would take a whole lot of work but the Volt is able to turn on the air conditioning compressor to cool the battery.

I thought the liquid cooling was like my refridgerator's chilled water in the door - compressor cools the liquid - then the liquid cools you (or EV batteries) - no? Otherwise (like mentioned above) you're just circulating 115 liquid.

Yes, exactly.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I wonder how long can the Volt use its own battery juice to cool its battery down? Also, whether they'd kick on the ICE generator to supply further power to continue the cooling.

The generator wont turn on if the car is unattended, a better idea to just keep the car plugged in.
Volt can use up to 25% of its battery for cooling, and it consumes 200Wh to do so thus it can keep it up for 13 hours. No idea about the Roadster.

I have a friend in the Phoenix area with a Roadster. He notes that the same A/C system that cools the passengers also cools the battery, with the battery taking priority. In town, it is usually not an issue because daily miles are (relatively) low and the battery does not warm so much as to require a reduction of cabin cooling. Overnight charge times are also not an issue. However, hit the road for Los Angeles in the summer, and the story changes. Freeway speeds drop to 60-65 to extend range for charging at a Bylthe RV park. A/C is totally dedicated to the battery, so it is windows down and lots of water to drink. At Blythe, a signicant part of the 50A from the RV hookup goes to cooling the battery, adding another 1.5-2.0 hours to his reading or poolside enjoyment.

Has the hot Phoenix environment cut into his battery capacity? If so, he has not mentioned it. The roadster is his only car and it is so enjoyable to him that he is willing to live within it's limitations. He smiles when stating that the first six seconds of every start are worth the price of the car, but notes that he mellowed somewhat when the rear tires required replacement at 7000 miles.

Back OT: I think the Leaf should be available as a purchase or lease, regardless of location. I could be wrong, but I don't think that leasing just the battery would offer much to folks vs. leasing the whole car. It would certainly be a form of risk-sharing, but at a real dollar cost to the consumer. I do wish that Nissan would be more forthcoming with real test and operational data on their batteries, but at this point in the BEV market-development competition, their current approach is understandable. There is no data to support this statement, but I believe that they will eventually have some sort of accommodation for those owners who experience statistically unusual battery capacity degradation. I don't see that data gelling for another 2-3 years.