How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[GaslessInSeattle]

perfectly well stated Volusiano!!! What you said!

Stop the insanity. I'm tired of 9 out of 10 new threads being about lost capacity in some form or another.

And yet you keep clicking in?

This is an important issue to a lot of people. And, just as happens on the TV, it's going to fill a lot of the news cycle until something else happens. And, honestly, I don't see a lot of new stuff happening in the BEV arena until the next year's Auto Show cycle starts.

+1. It should be an important issue to people not in the hot states, too, because it will affect retail values overall as well because it will affect Nissan's viability to become successful in the EV market if they lose trust from buyers.

For me personally, I just LOVE to keep hearing over and over and from more and more people chiming in about how they're starting to lose capacity themselves. Of course not because I wish it on anybody, but because it keeps the spotlight on the first key issue that will test Nissan's credibility as an EV car brand that people can trust and want to buy from.

Even if you're not from the hot states, would you still really want to buy another EV from Nissan anymore if you see that Nissan continues to refuse to address this issue? How do you know if Nissan won't refuse to address other key issues that may come up in the future that will affect YOUR Leaf as well?

 

[Volusiano]

I think first and foremost, Nissan has to come up with a solution to the hot battery issue first. Whether it be implementing TMS or a new battery that's more heat resistance, or a longer range battery to offset the rapid capacity loss.

Depending on whatever this solution is, the response should be based on that solution.

1. If it's a new TMS that's not going to be available until MY 2014, then allow people some good trade in value for their old LEAF that makes it worth their while when then new model comes out.
2. If it's a new heat-resistant battery, then a battery swap at favorable pro-rated cost should be fair.
3. If it's a longer range new battery that can offset rapid capacity loss, then a battery swap at favorable pro-rated cost should be fair.

If Nissan doesn't really have a technical solution to solve the hot battery problem at all, then we can start considering a new battery replacement program of some sort. We should really keep the battery separate from the car to avoid muddling too many things into the proposal and not have anything viable offered. Even though Nissan dealership charges a lot to replace/swap batteries ($3K or $4K), I must believe that it truly doesn't really cost that much and Nissan corporate should be able to absorb the real cost of replacement (which hopefully is not too much to them). If they didn't design the battery to be replaceable cheaply, then it's their problem in the first place and they still need to swallow the high replacement cost due to their own bad design.

Anyway, a couple of options I can see specifically on doing battery swapping are:

a. Maybe initiate a battery buy-back and battery lease program. Offer to buy back the old battery at a favorable pro-rated price, then apply that buy-back money to lease new batteries out for 3-5 years with an option to upgrade and lease again a new battery pack at the end of the lease. Or offer a (cheaper) battery buy-out at the end of the lease if the battery has proven to hold capacity well enough during the lease period and only lose a reasonable capacity amount as predicted by Nissan (for people who want to buy-out and own the battery at the end of the lease instead of continuing leasing it).
b. Or keep it simpler and just offering new battery swap option whenever 2 capacity bar loss happens. Not for free, but at a favorable pro-rated cost considering how many miles has been put on that battery, and also factoring in average capacity loss per mile or per year (or combination of both) as expected and predicted by Nissan into consideration.

 

[hill]

Please.. if I see one more thread on here about battery degradation I think I'm going to have to find a new forum somewhere. I hate to say it, but I'm pretty sick of the topic.

Until there is some actual news on the subject from Nissan or elsewhere, quit posting new variations on the same darn threads.

Yes... Keep tracking those that have lost capacity. Yes.. Keep talking about it in the threads we already have (so that I can ignore them).

Stop the insanity. I'm tired of 9 out of 10 new threads being about lost capacity in some form or another.

So let me get this right - you read a thread title that gets your shorts bunched up - & you go ahead & read it any way
Ok what am I missing. Oh - I keep forgetting - it's only ok if it's YOUR battery capacity.

Here's a novel idea - how about showing a bit of grace & understand we can't all be like you.

.

 

[Stoaty]

For me personally, I just LOVE to keep hearing over and over and from more and more people chiming in about how they're starting to lose capacity themselves. Of course not because I wish it on anybody, but because it keeps the spotlight on the first key issue that will test Nissan's credibility as an EV car brand that people can trust and want to buy from.

This is obviously the make or break issue for the Leaf, so I don't mind hearing about it 10,000 times or in 10,000 different ways. Everything else is like an ingrown toenail compared to a gunshot wound to the abdomen (metaphorically for rapid battery capacity loss). Although I am unlikely to be affected by this issue, I no longer trust anything Nissan says about battery capacity. If they don't respond appropriately, I am pretty sure my next EV will be from a different manufacturer.

 

[surfingslovak]

If Nissan doesn't really have a technical solution to solve the hot battery problem at all, then we can start considering a new battery replacement program of some sort. We should really keep the battery separate from the car to avoid muddling too many things into the proposal and not have anything viable offered. Even though Nissan dealership charges a lot to replace/swap batteries ($3K or $4K), I must believe that it truly doesn't really cost that much and Nissan corporate should be able to absorb the real cost of replacement (which hopefully is not too much to them).

Without wanting to speculate about a technical solution and its feasibility, and I do believe that this might put battery lease back on the agenda. If you look at what Renault is doing in Europe, it would seem reasonable to assume that the monthly lease fee would be around $100. Their European programs are tiered by annual mileage, and I believe that the battery lease agreement has a provision in it, which mandates pack replacement after it deteriorated to about 70% of nominal capacity. Do you think that this would be a fair price to pay? This would decouple the battery from the rest of the vehicle, and turn it into a consumable item.

 

[mwalsh]

Without wanting to speculate about a technical solution and its feasibility, and I do believe that this might put battery lease back on the agenda. If you look at what Renault is doing in Europe, it would seem reasonable to assume that the monthly lease fee would be around $100. Their European programs are tiered by annual mileage, and I believe that the battery lease agreement has a provision in it, which mandates pack replacement when the capacity has declined about 30%. Do you think that this would be a fair price to pay? This would decouple the battery from the rest of the vehicle, and turn it into a consumable item, which it is.

Two years ago, I would have been disinclined towards this idea. But, in retrospect, it sorta makes sense. And, yes, $100 a month for a battery lease would be an acceptable solution going forward.

 

[TomT]

But it would also depend largely on how much the cost of the vehicle was reduced by the battery lease program... If the vehicle lease cost also dropped $100 a month, I'd be in.

Two years ago, I would have been disinclined towards this idea. But, in retrospect, it sorta makes sense. And, yes, $100 a month for a battery lease would be an acceptable solution going forward.

 

[mdh]

If Nissan doesn't really have a technical solution to solve the hot battery problem at all, then we can start considering a new battery replacement program of some sort. We should really keep the battery separate from the car to avoid muddling too many things into the proposal and not have anything viable offered. Even though Nissan dealership charges a lot to replace/swap batteries ($3K or $4K), I must believe that it truly doesn't really cost that much and Nissan corporate should be able to absorb the real cost of replacement (which hopefully is not too much to them).

Without wanting to speculate about a technical solution and its feasibility, and I do believe that this might put battery lease back on the agenda. If you look at what Renault is doing in Europe, it would seem reasonable to assume that the monthly lease fee would be around $100. Their European programs are tiered by annual mileage, and I believe that the battery lease agreement has a provision in it, which mandates pack replacement after it deteriorated to about 70% of nominal capacity. Do you think that this would be a fair price to pay? This would decouple the battery from the rest of the vehicle, and turn it into a consumable item.

I think this is practically the best way to ramp the ev market.

 

[QueenBee]

Nissan can then put the new style packs into the cars traded in and sell them used with new packs. It not only helps us with the 2011 cars, but also in effect helps sales as the new cars would be sales and they could also sell the used cars which puts lots of Leaf's on the road. The program could run for two years, such that the 2012 cars can be traded in for 2014 model cars as well.

Another possible option for this program, in the event that they do not have a solution for the hot battery in time, would be to allow all 2011 and 2012 leafs which were purchased to be converted to the lease which was available at the time of purchase so that the owner will have a guaranteed sales price at the end of 3 years that the lease offers.

Probably would make more sense for them to just replace the batteries and you keep your car.

I think allowing people to convert to a lease would be an excellent solution which in theory would cost them nothing since it could be setup just like you had leased when you bought it instead of purchasing it, then prorate the interest/etc. accordingly and write you a check for the remainder.

 

[mdh]

Nissan can then put the new style packs into the cars traded in and sell them used with new packs. It not only helps us with the 2011 cars, but also in effect helps sales as the new cars would be sales and they could also sell the used cars which puts lots of Leaf's on the road. The program could run for two years, such that the 2012 cars can be traded in for 2014 model cars as well.

Another possible option for this program, in the event that they do not have a solution for the hot battery in time, would be to allow all 2011 and 2012 leafs which were purchased to be converted to the lease which was available at the time of purchase so that the owner will have a guaranteed sales price at the end of 3 years that the lease offers.

Probably would make more sense for them to just replace the batteries and you keep your car.

I think allowing people to convert to a lease would be an excellent solution which in theory would cost them nothing since it could be setup just like you had leased when you bought it instead of purchasing it, then prorate the interest/etc. accordingly and write you a check for the remainder.

+1. Can't see Nissan converting, but if they wanted to be bold and protect a core group of early customers this would be very smart. They should want to have us be positive references.

 

[mwalsh]

+1. Can't see Nissan converting, but if they wanted to be bold and protect a core group of early customers this would be very smart. They should want to have us be positive references.

Then they need to come up with something pretty darn soon. I'll bet a great many here are holding off on recommending the LEAF until this gets sorted to satisfaction, including those who would have had no such hesitation as recently as 3 months ago.

 

[dhanson865]

Nissan can then put the new style packs into the cars traded in and sell them used with new packs. It not only helps us with the 2011 cars, but also in effect helps sales as the new cars would be sales and they could also sell the used cars which puts lots of Leaf's on the road. The program could run for two years, such that the 2012 cars can be traded in for 2014 model cars as well.

Another possible option for this program, in the event that they do not have a solution for the hot battery in time, would be to allow all 2011 and 2012 leafs which were purchased to be converted to the lease which was available at the time of purchase so that the owner will have a guaranteed sales price at the end of 3 years that the lease offers.

Probably would make more sense for them to just replace the batteries and you keep your car.

I think allowing people to convert to a lease would be an excellent solution which in theory would cost them nothing since it could be setup just like you had leased when you bought it instead of purchasing it, then prorate the interest/etc. accordingly and write you a check for the remainder.

They shouldn't charge you interest on past payments after conversion in fact they should owe you interest on any amount to be refunded.

setup just like you had leased when you bought it instead of purchasing it, then calculate the FUTURE interest/etc. accordingly and write you a check for the remainder + PAST interest.

 

[jspearman]

I'm willing to convert to being a beta tester for new battery technology if they would keep replacing the battery through the years. I think we should be ground zero for battery testing from here on out. I'm especially willing to beta test a 300-mile battery

 

[vrwl]

I'm willing to convert to being a beta tester for new battery technology if they would keep replacing the battery through the years. I think we should be ground zero for battery testing from here on out. I'm especially willing to beta test a 300-mile battery

+1

 

[KJD]

I'm willing to convert to being a beta tester for new battery technology if they would keep replacing the battery through the years. I think we should be ground zero for battery testing from here on out. I'm especially willing to beta test a 300-mile battery

Have you heard of the Tesla Model S ? It is only sightly more money than the Leaf. :mrgreen:

 

[mwalsh]

Have you heard of the Tesla Model S ? It is only sightly more money than the Leaf. :mrgreen:

Availability severely constrained though:

http://insideevs.com/tesla-cuts-production-in-half-for-q3-earnings-and-valuations-downgraded/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[phxsmiley]

I'm willing to convert to being a beta tester for new battery technology if they would keep replacing the battery through the years. I think we should be ground zero for battery testing from here on out. I'm especially willing to beta test a 300-mile battery

I'd agree to that, even if it didn't provide any additional range, but had other benefits, like high heat endurance. They could even provide some unobtrusive monitoring box or something. I like the idea of getting a new battery every so often.

 

[palmermd]

Have you heard of the Tesla Model S ? It is only sightly more money than the Leaf. :mrgreen:

Availability severely constrained though:

http://insideevs.com/tesla-cuts-production-in-half-for-q3-earnings-and-valuations-downgraded/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Slightly? not sure what mrgreen means, but I can purchase 3 Leafs for the cost of the current run of Model S cars. Even when they build the 40kW version it will still be nearly double the price.

 

[jspearman]

I'm willing to convert to being a beta tester for new battery technology if they would keep replacing the battery through the years. I think we should be ground zero for battery testing from here on out. I'm especially willing to beta test a 300-mile battery

Have you heard of the Tesla Model S ? It is only sightly more money than the Leaf. :mrgreen:

When my wife's book gets published one of these days, and she gets an interview on The Daily Show, then we will certainly buy a Model S I was pretty seriously thinking of applying for a job at the Scottsdale Tesla store and hoping they give discounts!

 

[hill]

Have you heard of the Tesla Model S ? It is only sightly more money than the Leaf. :mrgreen:

Availability severely constrained though:

http://insideevs.com/tesla-cuts-production-in-half-for-q3-earnings-and-valuations-downgraded/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Slightly? not sure what mrgreen means, but I can purchase 3 Leafs for the cost of the current run of Model S cars. Even when they build the 40kW version it will still be nearly double the price.

But - the real question is whether or not the Tesla battery with liquid cooling will burn up in the extreme arizona heat.
:?
If one DOES end up cooking too quickly in the heat - well then - one may end up being a greater bargain than the other. I'm just sayin' -
.