Goodbye Leaf, Hello Model 3

[golfcart]

no need to come on a Leaf forum and brag about how much better your new Tesla M3 is than the leaf.

I'm talking about cost of ownership for utility gained. In simple terms, the Tesla is worth the extra cost up front because it is not limited to only a subset of common duties and because it will remain so for for the same duration we have come to expect from well built ICE cars. The LEAF is cheaper up front but is a local duty car in a few short years (and perhaps from day #1)

$20 - 25k sounds good until you realize that you are up for another 20 - 25k in 5 - 10 years ... and you kept an ICE around anyway for when the LEAF was inadequate.

Utility gained is a subjective quantity. My wife has a PHEV and gas costs $1.95 a gallon where we live. We both make our regular work commutes on 100% electricity which is (net) produced by our PV array. We only use gas when we take the PHEV out of town (rarely) and it takes us 2 minutes to refuel instead of an hour when we do so. I don't know where the "another $20-$25k over 5-10 years" is coming from in your calculations (you must take a hell of a lot of road trips) but I'm tired of arguing about it. We have gotten to the point that spreadsheets or code are gonna be required soon and it'll be garbage in - garbage out because we'll both bias our assumptions in our favor. LOL.

I see your point, hopefully you can see mine. At the end of the day folks do what is best for their situation. I think the Leaf is best for me and I'm glad that the M3 works for you and the OP.

 

[SageBrush]

A LEAF + PHEV + PV is an excellent and smart choice.
My wife wanted us to stay with that exact combination but I became an ICE hater so the PHEV was replaced by a general purpose EV. Our LEAF continues to be a happy choice for us because we only needed a second car for limited duties and buying a highly depreciated LEAF was excellent value.

I may yet learn to regret my LEAF purchase since we are moving to a warmer climate.

 

[SalisburySam]

I still have my 1964 Ford Thunderbird which is an absolute hoot to drive, with fairly low insurance and very low historic plates and registration fees in my EV-unfriendly state. It does get about 10 mpg, heresy on this forum for sure. And that's premium fuel, plus an octane booster. I think I've gotten my TCO and any other kind of financial evaluation out of the vehicle. Did I mention it's a hoot to drive? The few hundred miles I drive in it each year to shows and for fun (it is a hoot to drive!) are miles of sheer joy.

But I still like my 2012 LEAF and my 2018 Model 3 too. But that T-Bird is just a hoot to drive!

 

[GerryAZ]

I have some questions for you Model 3 owners (or any other Tesla owners): I park at the airport or my office frequently for up to 4 weeks at a time without being able to plug in. The LEAF has virtually the same state of charge when I return as when it was parked and it periodically charges its 12-volt battery so it is ready to drive without issue (both 2011 and 2015). If I were to get a Tesla with active thermal management, what would happen when I park it for three weeks in the long term parking garage at the airport in Phoenix in June without being able to plug in? Would I come home to a discharged battery because it tried to keep itself cool? Would it turn off cooling to save charge and allow some battery degradation due to high temperatures? I have been unable to get consistent answers from Tesla representatives in their showrooms.

Thanks in advance for your answers.
Gerry

 

[Zythryn]

I have some questions for you Model 3 owners (or any other Tesla owners): I park at the airport or my office frequently for up to 4 weeks at a time without being able to plug in. The LEAF has virtually the same state of charge when I return as when it was parked and it periodically charges its 12-volt battery so it is ready to drive without issue (both 2011 and 2015). If I were to get a Tesla with active thermal management, what would happen when I park it for three weeks in the long term parking garage at the airport in Phoenix in June without being able to plug in? Would I come home to a discharged battery because it tried to keep itself cool? Would it turn off cooling to save charge and allow some battery degradation due to high temperatures? I have been unable to get consistent answers from Tesla representatives in their showrooms.

Thanks in advance for your answers.
Gerry

Your scenario is pretty far out of my experience.
I have parked at an airport, unplugged for a week in winter with some loss of range, but fairly minor.
Is the garage enclosed, or at least shaded?

Some battery power will be used to keep the battery from overheating, which will result in some range loss if not plugged in.
Our AP has plugs, so if I were concerned I could just plug in.
The car also has settings for 'overheat protection'. This will use battery power to keep the car cabin from overheating. I think it is something like 105? This only works for 12 hours though, so probably not applicable for this scenario.
As a matter of fact, before parking, make sure that isn't on, otherwise you may use battery power on the first day.

Cooling the car takes less power than heating it, so I would assume you would be ok. Just make sure you don't have any third party apps that would be keeping the car active, and thus draining battery power faster.

 

[SageBrush]

Utility gained is a subjective quantity.

I'm talking about very basic utility like battery capacity and degradation. People move on from their LEAFs because of the battery

 

[tesleaf]

Congrats!!
Model 3 is sadly over 4 times more expensive than what I paid for my Leaf....

 

[mkwilkes]

For me, the Leaf is about embracing EV technology without sacrificing value. We could afford a 3, even an X or S, but we chose not to spend that much on transportation. Our 2018 Leaf S had an MSRP of $33,440. The dealer took off $4,144, Nissan offered $3,000 in incentives ($2,000 for being a previous Leaf owner and $1,000 to take their 72 mo. 0% financing). When I subtract the $7500 Federal and $2500 Oregon tax credits, my final price (excluding license and title) was $16,296. That’s over $17,000 (51%) off MSRP. Don’t get me wrong, I think the M3 is a very nice car. I’ve spent plenty of time in them, but using my purchase experience, which I doubt is unique, I could purchase three Leafs for the price of one Model 3. The M3 is cool, but it ain’t 3X cool.

 

[downeykp]

I spent a lot of time during oct-dec traveling at 75-80 mph in desert CA and AZ. Saw a few Tesla's. I could go <500 mi. in Cadillac SUV with a 5 min. stop to refuel. What kind of mileage or range would any electric car go driving at these speeds?

 

[garsh]

Congrats!!
Model 3 is sadly over 4 times more expensive than what I paid for my Leaf....

Are you telling me that you paid less than $11,000 for a brand new 2018 Nissan Leaf?
A Model 3 starts at $44,000 right now.

 

[cwerdna]

Congrats!!
Model 3 is sadly over 4 times more expensive than what I paid for my Leaf....

Are you telling me that you paid less than $11,000 for a brand new 2018 Nissan Leaf?
A Model 3 starts at $44,000 right now.

His sig says he has a '15 S w/QC.

 

[pipestem]

This thread really blew up. I hope Nissan realizes what an opportunity they have that is slip sliding away.

Which trim did you get if you don't mind me asking? I know it's always weird to talk about what you spent on something but I am just trying to get a feel for how good this car is for the dollar.

The cheapest Tesla M3 I see available is $45,200 including destination and doc fee and the most expensive goes up to $71,200. It seems like a hell of a car but more in line with a 3 series BMW that goes from the 330i in the low $40,000's up to the M3 starting around $67k than a Nissan Leaf with an MSRP of $30k - $38k (plus the full $7500 tax credit). Given your willingness to likely spend $50k+ on a vehicle was it realistic to hope for a Leaf to be your dream car? They just seem like they are in a different league.
..

I don't mind. I got the mid range no options version for $46k which is basically $10k or so more than a new Leaf SV with tech and winter packages even with dealer discounts in my area. I will get the 7500 credit. The Leaf had good trade in value. That extra $10k is alot obviously, however, like all decisions, its a mix of utility and desire. You know none of us actually needs a new car. And now I can actually drive to the beach .

 

[WetEV]

I spent a lot of time during oct-dec traveling at 75-80 mph in desert CA and AZ. Saw a few Tesla's. I could go <500 mi. in Cadillac SUV with a 5 min. stop to refuel. What kind of mileage or range would any electric car go driving at these speeds?

Might be interesting if I had any need or desire to drive 500 plus miles in the desert. It will be a while before the corner cases are EV.

Most trips are less than 100 miles from home. That's No Worries Range for any 60kWh or more electric. Charge only at home or work.

Once we get past half electric cars on the road, then the corner cases will start to matter.

 

[golfcart]

This thread really blew up. I hope Nissan realizes what an opportunity they have that is slip sliding away.

Hahaha it's the internet if a thread lasts more than 3 pages it inevitably goes on a tangent. I agree, Nissan needs to do this eplus right, it is a big opportunity for them.

I don't mind. I got the mid range no options version for $46k which is basically $10k or so more than a new Leaf SV with tech and winter packages even with dealer discounts in my area. I will get the 7500 credit. The Leaf had good trade in value. That extra $10k is alot obviously, however, like all decisions, its a mix of utility and desire. You know none of us actually needs a new car. And now I can actually drive to the beach .

That's interesting to hear that the base model Tesla M3 is still that good. At only $10k more than the leaf it does merit consideration I think. It has more range, better performance, less degradation, and will likely have better resale value. I don't care about autopilot and all that stuff so I'd get the same one you got if I ever went Tesla. Did you take the aero hubcaps off? I read that the rims underneath look pretty sweet!

 

[pipestem]

That's interesting to hear that the base model Tesla M3 is still that good. At only $10k more than the leaf it does merit consideration I think. It has more range, better performance, less degradation, and will likely have better resale value. I don't care about autopilot and all that stuff so I'd get the same one you got if I ever went Tesla. Did you take the aero hubcaps off? I read that the rims underneath look pretty sweet!

Yean, I have to say that M3 is a lot more car / dollar. There is a reasonable chance that in 5 years the M3 will be worth more than $10K more than a new Leaf, and one would be net better off.

The wheels under the aero hubcaps do look good. Waiting for the center cap kit to come in. Being a cheap Tesla owner, it is all black. The whole thing is just how I like it.

ALSO, per earlier comment, I think we are overdoing the dream car thing, I just meant that I always liked fast sleek sport sedans more than coupes or suvs or trucks. Adding the electric requirement narrows the field substantially. Assuming one already has the sport sedan, Tesla Roadster might be the real dream car. Or a perfect long nose 911. Or a 300SL gullwing. Mint 2002 tii. 63 split-window coupe. You know, reasonable cars . I think there is a GREAT opportunity for Nissan to make a small electric 2 seat roadster - you don't need much battery, it's light weight.... honestly.

 

[golfcart]

ALSO, per earlier comment, I think we are overdoing the dream car thing, I just meant that I always liked fast sleek sport sedans more than coupes or suvs or trucks. Adding the electric requirement narrows the field substantially. Assuming one already has the sport sedan, Tesla Roadster might be the real dream car. Or a perfect long nose 911. Or a 300SL gullwing. Mint 2002 tii. 63 split-window coupe. You know, reasonable cars . I think there is a GREAT opportunity for Nissan to make a small electric 2 seat roadster - you don't need much battery, it's light weight.... honestly.

I hear you, I was just making the point that they are a different class of car that's all. A luxury sedan with higher upfront cost vs an economy hatchback. I don't consider them competition for the Leaf like I do the Chevy Bolt or Kia Soul etc... I think the Tesla is a great value for anyone wanting a BMW/Lexus type performance sedan given the government subsidies and lower cost of ownership.

I'd do exactly like you did except I do not like black cars... never have. I'd go silver or white which unfortunately adds a couple grand to the price tag.

How is the stereo? I like a little bass does it have decent low end from the stock speakers?

I've always been a "hot hatchback" kind of guy... We used to swap Integra engines into Civic hatchbacks and throw big turbo kits on them back in the day. I had a tuned WRX wagon before the Leaf so I'm with you on the "missed opportunity" thing by Nissan. I'd love a Nismo leaf eplus under $40k that goes 0-60 under 6 sec and has a more aggressive stance and suspension. That is one thing Tesla definitely gets right is that they make their EVs cool.

Hopefully the eplus gets announced next week and the specs are good. Just had to wait and see. I'm thinking about an upgrade sometime next year since my Leaf 1 range is getting a little tight on the winter commute so I'm weighing my options.

 

[pipestem]

How is the stereo? I like a little bass does it have decent low end from the stock speakers?

I've always been a "hot hatchback" kind of guy... We used to swap Integra engines into Civic hatchbacks and throw big turbo kits on them back in the day. I had a tuned WRX wagon before the Leaf so I'm with you on the "missed opportunity" thing by Nissan. I'd love a Nismo leaf eplus under $40k that goes 0-60 under 6 sec and has a more aggressive stance and suspension. That is one thing Tesla definitely gets right is that they make their EVs cool.
.

Stereo is incredibly awesome. All cars require the 'premium interior' package. I too was an 80s Honda fanboy. How about a high-power, full electric CRZ ? (Nissan - hint - 240Z-E !)

 

[SageBrush]

Hopefully the eplus gets announced next week and the specs are good. Just had to wait and see. I'm thinking about an upgrade sometime next year since my Leaf 1 range is getting a little tight on the winter commute so I'm weighing my options.

Within what, 3 years of buying the car ?

That is my point.

 

[golfcart]

Within what, 3 years of buying the car ?

That is my point.

Your point is well taken but not applicable to a gen 2 leaf or (potential) eplus leaf. I have a static 55 mile round trip commute. Even a gen 2 (40kWh) leaf would easily make that for the next 8 years under warranty.

My commute is the tall pole, the beach, downtown, and golf course are all within 15 miles.

If I sell later this year for $10k I got 3.5 - 4 years for $7500 including tags, taxes, and fees. That's cheaper than the $199 lease... I'm fine with that.

 

[specialgreen]

We haul some bulky things, so a model-3 won't work for us. But I could see myself in a used Model S. I could get a CPO used one with a 4-year warranty. But I have zero interest in selling it after four years just because the warranty is expiring. My biggest concern with Tesla is uncertainty over how expensive it would be to maintain once it is out of warranty.

As Leaf owners, we know that there are many Leaf auto parts with silly-expensive OEM prices, but often there are normal priced substitutes from RockAuto/PartsGeek for the Juke or Versa. With the exception of the traction battery and charger, most of the Leaf is "just a car," and can be worked-on by any independent car mechanic. I have more concern with the Tesla that something simple could fail (e.g. dead squirrel in the air filter, window doesn't rise smoothly, wiper gears stripped, door seal leaking, brake caliper binding-up), which may require a sudden infusion of $1k-$2k for Tesla's repair. Most drivers have few problems, but it sounds a bit like a backwards lottery ticket.