Ghosn finally concedes 2012 EV targets will not be met

[adric22]

Yes, it is puzzling why Nissan even made it available for sale in AZ, TX and other hot climates, given their handling of the situation. But, I doubt this is hurting sales much. Sales weren't all that high before this hot climate degradation fiasco.

I doubt the battery issues are hurting sales very much. Primarily because I suspect most people have still never heard of the car or have no idea what it can do.

 

[RegGuheert]

Primarily because I suspect most people have still never heard of the car or have no idea what it can do.

I think this is the main point.

IMO, there are probably about 10 million drivers in the U.S. who commute 30-40 miles RT each day who currently drive vehicles which consume so much gas that they could lease the LEAF (even at the original rates) and operate it for less money than the gasoline savings they would realize.

If Nissan had developed a rifle-shot marketing campaign focused on ONLY this group and no others, they likely would have been far more successful overall.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

A lot of good points made about how the LEAF does not cover random specific needs (as if we needed a reminder) but none of that has to do with the subject of the thread now does it?.

The LEAF is not marketed to be a mainstream vehicle and slow adoption is the norm.

Way back when, i had a chance to beta test an online having system. I remember the reaction even it was suggested that we pay a monthly fee fit the right to play.

We thought they were crazy. compared to discs, The graphics were crap, latency a joke and three thought of "paying for the same game over and over" every month was ludicrous.

That was 1996. Hopefully it won't take that long for us to realize the LEAF its a niche vehicle with a market of less than 20 million

 

[mwalsh]

We thought they were crazy. compared to discs, The graphics were crap, latency a joke and three thought of "paying for the same game over and over" every month was ludicrous.

That was 1996. Hopefully it won't take that long for us to realize the LEAF its a niche vehicle with a market of less than 20 million

I keep coming on like a broken record, but same way with cable TV ~1981; same with cell phone service ~1986.

 

[RegGuheert]

The LEAF is not marketed to be a mainstream vehicle and slow adoption is the norm.

It's not?

On the contrary, I will say that Nissan marketed the LEAF almost as a mainstream vehicle when they should have instead targeted very specific groups. As a result, they have created a very confused marketplace where everyone is trying to figure out if the car is right for them when Nissan could have simply spelled out who should consider the car in a focused ad campaign.

IMO what we are witnessing is a brilliant product which was brought to market by people who thought sales would be driven by an eco-friendly message. In other words, they seemed to view the LEAF like every other car, only greener. That message works for a small group of people, but the fact is that they have completely ignored a massive target market which could (and still can) purchase the LEAF purely based on economic considerations. But Nissan needs to reach that group while avoiding sales to customers who will eventually become disenchanted with the LEAF.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Too many different transportation needs to call any type of vehicle mainstream. If not, then what would you call mainsfream because no matter what you chose, a majority would tell you how it does not work for them

 

[surfingslovak]

IMO what we are witnessing is a brilliant product which was brought to market by people who thought sales would be driven by an eco-friendly message. In other words, they seemed to view the LEAF like every other car, only greener. That message works for a small group of people, but the fact is that they have completely ignored a massive target market which could (and still can) purchase the LEAF purely based on economic considerations. But Nissan needs to reach that group while avoiding sales to customers who will eventually become disenchanted with the LEAF.

Yes, Nissan should fix their messaging first and foremost. That's been the common thread in almost everything that transpired this year. If the lease payment is close to someone's monthly gas bill, the car will sell pretty much by itself. That said, prospects will need to be able to figure out if the car will work for them or not. Since not everyone will end up buying, even when great lease deals are being offered, Nissan should also be more transparent about things like parts and replacement costs. That would go a long way to remove any uncertainty about long-term operational cost and resale value.

 

[downeykp]

This thread should be named Marketing the Leaf. There is no way this vehicle will ever be mainstream. Mainstream means getting in and driving. Not worrying about being able to take that little extra trip that comes along every now and then and not having the battery capacity to do said trip. Without more battery capacity this car will never be mainstream.
My wife pre-heats at home and then pre-heats at work on battery power. Her commute is about 40 miles round trip with heater on the whole time. She rolls into the garage with 1 energy bar remaining and single digits on the GOM. I tell her that people on MNL swear that she has another 20 miles until games over, but this still freaks her out. I have been reading this forum for two years so I consider myself well informed, but she is not satisfied.
Mainstream customer is not going to put up with all of this. They just want to get in and drive.

 

[Stoaty]

My wife pre-heats at home and then pre-heats at work on battery power. Her commute is about 40 miles round trip with heater on the whole time. She rolls into the garage with 1 energy bar remaining and single digits on the GOM. I tell her that people on MNL swear that she has another 20 miles until games over, but this still freaks her out. I have been reading this forum for two years so I consider myself well informed, but she is not satisfied.

Why don't you get a Gid meter so she will know exactly how much charge she has left? Gives me a lot of piece of mind; I haven't looked at the GOM in over a year.

 

[adric22]

Her commute is about 40 miles round trip with heater on the whole time. She rolls into the garage with 1 energy bar remaining and single digits on the GOM. I tell her that people on MNL swear that she has another 20 miles until games over, but this still freaks her out.

Hence why I never recommend the Leaf for anyone who drives over 40 miles per day. Sure I can make that commute and be home with 30 or 40 miles remaining on the GOM. But I rarely use AC/Heat, avoid highways, and drive gently. My wife, on the other hand, falls under the same category as yours. If she drives the Leaf to work (she also does 40 miles) she can come home with 10 miles remaining or so. (I will charge it to 100% if I know she's driving it) because she will floor it at every opportunity, speed, run the heat or A/C at full blast. She even does crazy stuff like in the winter time if it is like 50 degrees outside she'll wear her coat in the car but turn on the A/C to cool it down because the sun will heat up the car beyond her comfort zone. Rather than taking off her coat or cracking a window, she'll waste power on A/C because it is convenient. Well, truth is - she's pretty much the average consumer when it comes to this kind of stuff. Nissan needs to understand this is how most drivers are and most will not change.

While it is true that all of these things affect gas mileage on a regular car, most people don't care because they'd rather buy a little extra gas in order to enjoy their comforts. Unfortunately, in an EV the issue changes from cost of fuel to range of the vehicle.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
The above is why IIRC, Edmunds, when they had a Mini E in their long term test fleet felt that it was akin to driving an ICEV running on empty the whole time.

I think it didn't help that their car had a GOM and I think they only had L1 charging. J1772 wasn't an option yet (I don't think the standard that we use today was even finalized yet) and there was certainly no quick charging.

 

[surfingslovak]

^^^
The above is why IIRC, Edmunds, when they had a Mini E in their long term test fleet felt that it was akin to driving an ICEV running on empty the whole time.

I think it didn't help that their car had a GOM and I think they only had L1 charging. J1772 wasn't an option yet (I don't think the standard that we use today was even finalized yet) and there was certainly no quick charging.

That's a shame, because the MINI-E was a great little EV. Not very comfortable, but fun and competent nonetheless.

With 35 kWh nominal battery capacity, and 11.5 kW onboard charger (up to 48 amps on 240 V), it could do many things three years ago, which would make some Leaf owners jealous today. The ClipperCreek station BMW made available to drivers was J1772 compatible, but it had a proprietary connector, because the J1772-2009 plug was not signed off yet. There is a Yazaki upgrade kit available for these stations, and some of the MINI-E field trial participants have taken advantage of that.

To go back on topic. I believe that the Leaf has a lot of market potential, with the correct messaging and target audience. Nissan must absolutely address some of the product shortcomings, and the terrible GOM is one of the main pain points. That will take time, given the planning horizons in the auto industry, but with a little luck, we might see some of these improvements in the 2013 MY.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Interesting... I wish I could find the post. http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2009/12/2009-mini-e-i-cant-live-like-this.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was a post about their range anxiety.

Interesting in some of the other comments on other posts there, I saw KeiJidosha mentioned.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

This thread should be named Marketing the Leaf. There is no way this vehicle will ever be mainstream. Mainstream means getting in and driving. Not worrying about being able to take that little extra trip that comes along every now and then and not having the battery capacity to do said trip. Without more battery capacity this car will never be mainstream.
My wife pre-heats at home and then pre-heats at work on battery power. Her commute is about 40 miles round trip with heater on the whole time. She rolls into the garage with 1 energy bar remaining and single digits on the GOM. I tell her that people on MNL swear that she has another 20 miles until games over, but this still freaks her out. I have been reading this forum for two years so I consider myself well informed, but she is not satisfied.
Mainstream customer is not going to put up with all of this. They just want to get in and drive.

other than the pre heat part, i am in the EXACT situation as you. Today, she forgets to charge "coat" and was running a bit late in the morning so she did 65+ mph on way to work and states she did 52 mph on way home (she sets NAV to compare the distance home with GOM...she resists all my attempts at allowing her to understand the SOC meter) and weather tonight was not cold but was very windy and rainy meaning had to run defrost which lowers the GOM estimate and although she gets home with "plenty" to spare, she is not happy rolling into garage with 5 miles left...(please dont ask me to explain this part...she has gone thru the same thing several dozen times before and still is nervous...

 

[cwerdna]

This thread should be named Marketing the Leaf. There is no way this vehicle will ever be mainstream. Mainstream means getting in and driving. Not worrying about being able to take that little extra trip that comes along every now and then and not having the battery capacity to do said trip. Without more battery capacity this car will never be mainstream.
My wife pre-heats at home and then pre-heats at work on battery power. Her commute is about 40 miles round trip with heater on the whole time. She rolls into the garage with 1 energy bar remaining and single digits on the GOM. I tell her that people on MNL swear that she has another 20 miles until games over, but this still freaks her out. I have been reading this forum for two years so I consider myself well informed, but she is not satisfied.
Mainstream customer is not going to put up with all of this. They just want to get in and drive.

Why don't you get a Gid meter so she will know exactly how much charge she has left? Gives me a lot of piece of mind; I haven't looked at the GOM in over a year.

I agree w/downeykp. Until gasoline/diesel becomes scarce and expensive enough or people are willing to listen re: the consequences (geopolitical, environmental, etc.), the mainstream consumer will definitely not put up with issues associated w/the lack of range. They don't see why they should spend such a large sum of $ on a car w/such limitation when even the cheapest econobox doesn't have it.

Stoaty's suggestion is a good one, but problem is, many mainstream consumers won't know to get one and it doesn't solve the range issue or needing to do "special things". Downeykp should consider the WattsLeft meter at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=215389#p215389" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=224711#p224711" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If there's enough range to last thru an entire day's worth of driving that one might do w/o charging (not counting road trips) including fast highway driving and heavy HVAC use while keeping the price low enough, then it becomes more suitable for mainstream consumers.

 

[ksnogas2112]

it amazes me how some of those people could actually use a computer.

Sigh... i'm in computer tech support. After dealing with a person who wanted to have barcodes recognized but printed white barcodes on white paper i'm afraid nothing actually surprises me. Disappoints, frustrates, but not surprised.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

it amazes me how some of those people could actually use a computer.

Sigh... i'm in computer tech support. After dealing with a person who wanted to have barcodes recognized but printed white barcodes on white paper i'm afraid nothing actually surprises me. Disappoints, frustrates, but not surprised.

i used to work computer desktop support which is 10X worse. you deal with people many of whom, knew how to type but nothing else. we had passowrd resets every 30 days. managing THAT alone was nearly a full time job for 800 people

the rules;

1. 8 characters or more
2. at least one cap letter, one small letter, number, no symbols, no repeating characters
3. last 20 pws had to be unique
4. could not repeat more than 4 characters of previous pws in sequence

well pw resets would not work so i would be called in because "the computer is not working" i ask them over the phone what their previous pw was and what they were trying to reset it to. they would tell me, i would tell them which rule was not followed and

a) they would argue with me
b) count to themselves to check the "4 character in sequence" rule

anyway...

the reason why the LEAF is not (or at least should not be) marketed as a mainstream vehicle is because there is no such thing. Plus if you market it as such, it only provides a much bigger target for neighsayers to shoot it down with those 4% "what ifs"

but being a niche product is not all bad considering the market is so huge. 20 million is a market that anyone would love to control and that is only the initial market. As the real value of EVs are realized the market will segment into super small single commuter, high efficiency. the Family EV, SUVs and even pickups and commuter vans some day when battery tech cheapens up a bit

 

[mkjayakumar]

I hate to admit, but Herm is right.

It is the product, and for the one and only reason: Range (and then of course the dreaded battery degradation). Not styling, price, heat and other things.

I rarely go over 50 miles, but yesterday I did 74 miles to VLB (76 miles in total) with no heat or AC, of which 55 miles were on highway speeds. If I had not been an avid MNL reader I would be sweating bullets when the GOM said "----" and I had 2 miles to reach home.

Bottom line: For the same price if I had 100 solid highway miles with heating turned on all the way even after 5 years, there is no reason why it shouldn't sell at that price range.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I hate to admit, but Herm is right.

It is the product, and for the one and only reason: Range (and then of course the dreaded battery degradation). Not styling, price, heat and other things.

I rarely go over 50 miles, but yesterday I did 74 miles to VLB (76 miles in total) with no heat or AC, of which 55 miles were on highway speeds. If I had not been an avid MNL reader I would be sweating bullets when the GOM said "----" and I had 2 miles to reach home.

Bottom line: For the same price if I had 100 solid highway miles with heating turned on all the way even after 5 years, there is no reason why it shouldn't sell at that price range.

below your bottom line is a significant niche that would take the LEAF range as is (with TMS in some parts of the country) for $5,000 less

 

[Nubo]

i used to work computer desktop support which is 10X worse. you deal with people many of whom, knew how to type but nothing else. we had passowrd resets every 30 days. managing THAT alone was nearly a full time job for 800 people

the rules;

1. 8 characters or more
2. at least one cap letter, one small letter, number, no symbols, no repeating characters
3. last 20 pws had to be unique
4. could not repeat more than 4 characters of previous pws in sequence

well pw resets would not work so i would be called in because "the computer is not working" i ask them over the phone what their previous pw was and what they were trying to reset it to. they would tell me, i would tell them which rule was not followed and

a) they would argue with me
b) count to themselves to check the "4 character in sequence" rule

As a systems type myself I will label this a software design failure. Systems are used by humans and so human factors should be taken into consideration with the design. Security is a pain in the ass. A necessary pain, but a pain nonetheless. The user wants to get past this as quickly as possible. They have other things to do which are far more important to them and they don't give a rat's patootie about upper/lower case this, or special-character that because it makes their password harder to type, so they are already PO'd everytime password change comes around.

While we may say that there are only 4 simple rules, the user is focused elsewhere. If the new password fails a quality check, the software should explain and clearly illustrate which rule(s) were violated, making the exchange self-learning instead of wasting the time of the support team for trivial matters.

There are interesting case studies in aviation where consistent incidents occurred which were finally resolved by taking human factors into account and fixing the design instead of berating the user (pilot). Regardless of who was ultimately "at fault", the best answer was to make things simpler, less ambiguous, and less error-prone. This applied to such things as taxiway markings, the shape of various control knobs, etc...

anyway...

the reason why the LEAF is not (or at least should not be) marketed as a mainstream vehicle is because there is no such thing. Plus if you market it as such, it only provides a much bigger target for neighsayers to shoot it down with those 4% "what ifs"

but being a niche product is not all bad considering the market is so huge. 20 million is a market that anyone would love to control and that is only the initial market. As the real value of EVs are realized the market will segment into super small single commuter, high efficiency. the Family EV, SUVs and even pickups and commuter vans some day when battery tech cheapens up a bit

+1. There are plenty of vehicles that have sold fewer units U.S. than LEAF. But not many people bemoaning that they are not "mainstream".

Each time I drive the LEAF I'm reminded just how pleasant it is to drive compared to an ICE. This is not a minor thing. It WILL catch on.