Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

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scottf200 said:
...That will be the price for the popularity of plug-in electric vehicles is that charging stations will frequently be busy. Everyone has a right to run on the battery. :|

The problem was, the charge stations were NOT "busy".

The parking spots adjacent to the L2s were occupied by cars, driven by a**holes, who were PREVENTING the chargers from being "busy".

The only way to efficiently utilize both the space and the adjacent L2 charger, is to charge for each product separately, the parking spot, the electricity consumption when charging, AND ALSO the cost to the L2 provider, of blocking the charger's use by others, even when NOT charging.

This is theoretically possible, but obviously cumbersome.

This, IMO, is why AC L2 will always be only marginally useful in terms of public infrastructure.

And why I expect the superior model of DC charging, at fast charge stations, to largely replace slow AC for public EV charging, as EVs proliferate.
 
edatoakrun said:
scottf200 said:
...That will be the price for the popularity of plug-in electric vehicles is that charging stations will frequently be busy. Everyone has a right to run on the battery. :|

The problem was, the charge stations were NOT "busy".

The parking spots adjacent to the L2s were occupied by cars, driven by a**holes, who were PREVENTING the chargers from being "busy".

Think it's bad now? Just wait till Mr. Toyoda pumps out about 100K or so PIPs all of which will be covered with stickers proclaiming "F OPEC," "No Oil for Wars or Salads," etc, ad nauseam.

"My Leaf is a(n) NEV, My Leaf is a(n) NEV..." Just repeat until you find your center. It works for me.
 
scottf200 said:
So your first thought was to post your "ICE'd by Volts" | "for ev CHARGING ONLY" comments in this thread when you got home? Same issue if there were any other vehicles there that can run on electric batteries who's owners want to use electrons. . . . . . . . snip|
Wow, not sure if that's meant to be a scolding, ... or a dose of blame, or just bad kneejerk presumption. No, I didn't run home and post. It seems that no one else missed the point. I'll try again, without mentioning brands, to make comprehension more likely and to to not inflame particular ownership.

I'm noticing that there are more and more RUDE, inconsiderate plug-in folks, who think NOTHING of blocking chargers when they are not even using it. I leave a sign on my dash that tells would be plug-ins, "feel free to unplug after __:45Pm" so that way - if it's possible- no one gets stranded. But SOME plugin's come from the factory with an alarm designed by default, to go off if it's unplugged. It can't be turned off without the dealer deactivating it.

In California now, ONE manufacturer recently had their lacky legislator get the law changed, so that it's actually ILLEGAL to use courtesy plackards (in public parking lots ... not applicable to private lots) ... but I found that courtesy placards was the way several plugin folks used to do, and that worked just fine.

It seems now, that at least ONE manufacturer would prefer PHEV'S to be able to get their 2 hour's of 240v ... so they can be green ... even if it means that a 7mpg tow truck has to flatbed an EV out of ther - maybe 10 miles off to some other spot to charge. Hope that was non-descript enough for anybody that may have wrongly got their dander up.

I suppose if it were ME selling only plugins as an alternative to ICE, and if EV sales potentially jeopardized MY product ... then I'd probably rig the system to MY product's advantage too. Like slowing Chademo UL/SAE approval ... charger infrastructure rule changes, etc. I guess that we should have bought the plugin. EV's can be inconvenient enough without antagonistic legislative rule making. But it doesn't end there. If I got this right, EV drivers are tantamount to cry babies if in a private garage, their private rules encourage 'sharing' ... and one dares to bring up that it doesn't work well. And yes, if it'd been a PiP, or a home brew PHEV, or even an ev, I'd have brought it up.
sheesh.
The 1st paragraph I'd written was on view of sales ... now, versus over a year ago ... am I damned for that thought being placed in this thread too? peace & love, man ... deep breath ...
;)
.
 
hill said:
I'm noticing that there are more and more RUDE, inconsiderate plug-in folks, who think NOTHING of blocking chargers when they are not even using it.
My advice would be to get some cheese to go with that whine. You're sad campaign against PHEVs was never very interesting in the first place and it hasn't improved with age. If a car has a plug then its driver has just as much right to plug in as you do. End of story.

As for not disconnecting after charging is finished, that's just the way it's going to work. Last weekend I was at Balboa Park and a Leaf was plugged in without any lights. So what? I didn't expect the driver to run out of a museum and move their car the second it finished charging.

As for ending up on a flat-bed, that's a personal problem. You have to take responsibility for your own charging needs and figure out how to make it work. The world is not here to make your life easier. At this point public chargers are spotty. More of an occasional convenience than anything. If you need more range than you can get from a Leaf then you should get a vehicle that fits your needs.
 
hill said:
But SOME plugin's come from the factory with an alarm designed by default, to go off if it's unplugged. It can't be turned off without the dealer deactivating it.
I don't know about SOME other plugins, but since this is the Volt thread I'll mention the MY '12 Volt has a configuration option for the customer to turn off the Charge Cord Theft Alert, and MY '11 Volt owners can disable the Charge Cord Theft Alert by simply locking the car using the physical key (which disables it for the first unplug event). And in a pinch, another plug in owner can simply ignore the honking. It doesn't last for all that long. And I think it discredits the honker more than the honkee...

But I agree that any plug-in car owner should move their car from a charge station after their car is charged.

I wish there was an inexpensive way to make EVSEs that were limited to 6 amp 120V charging (or even 3 amp, though I don't think J1772 supports that) so that EVSEs with real TMSs could remained plugged in indefinitely without taking up valuable battery recharging stations. Any EV or PHEV with a TMS probably wants to be plugged in all the time.
 
SanDust said:
hill said:
I'm noticing that there are more and more RUDE, inconsiderate plug-in folks, who think NOTHING of blocking chargers when they are not even using it.
My advice would be to get some cheese to go with that whine. You're sad campaign against PHEVs was never very interesting in the first place and it hasn't improved with age. If a car has a plug then its driver has just as much right to plug in as you do. End of story. . . . . snip
Maybe you missed it too. The parking lot TOWS. Thems their rules. "CHARGING ONLY" ... not park and block. Not charge for a while then block. Charge, then GET OUT. At that junction one can think, "screw'em I'm calling the lot attendant ... they can pick up their PHEV at the impound yard if they got the $100 that tow trucks charge". Or ... leave a note. Wacky me, that's what I did. For these 2 PHEV's that ICED'd the 2 spots that day, here's to hoping that someone more heartless doesn't stumble by next time. I for one, try to do what's right . . . aside from mis-perceived whining.

.
 
SanDust said:
...If a car has a plug then its driver has just as much right to plug in as you do. End of story...

This is precisely the self-centered rationalisation that is displayed by those who do not require a charge, but plug in, just to get a prime parking space.

I wonder how long it will be before some ICEV drivers start installing dummy charge ports, to go with their fake "disabled" parking placards...
 
Volt owners have a 10K EV club to join. A little self congratulatory I admit but many Volt owners are keen to drive EV miles as much as possible. Noticed that from voltstats.net that quite a few are there but have not "joined" (you can sort on EV miles). 463 folks on voltstats.net with 1,952,832 EV miles.

Chevrolet Volt EV Hall of Fame

10000EV_miles_decal_thumb_medium200_196.jpg
 
SanDust said:
GRA said:
Personally, I was more interested in the Cruze's 42 mpg versus the Volt's 40 mpg @ 70 mph highway cruise, in an 894 mile real-world trip, since highway cruising represents virtually all (at least 85%) of my driving needs.
...
As to the 50-70 time, note that it's acceleration _in top gear_, and the Cruze Eco is a stick. This particular stat has always bugged me in the case of manual transmission cars, because no one driving a stick is going to pass at these speeds in an overdrive top gear, they'll downshift (just as an automatic does, so those aren't passing in top gear either).
I actually think you're wrong about driving behavior. When you're cruising it's a lot of work to suddenly downshift in order to pass. Unnatural. If you were racing yes but not if you were just cruising.
Considering I've owned sticks exclusively for the 35 years I've been driving, I don't find downshifting a lot of work or unnatural when needed to pass, climb or descend hills or otherwise be where I want/need to be in the power or torque bands. Hell, a well-executed fast double-clutch downshift is one of the most fun parts of driving a stick (a well-executed heel-and-toe downshift, a skill which I mostly lack, being #1) - most driving is pretty boring. Besides, the times when you need to pass quickly you're usually set up in advance - you see the opportunity coming (or are prepared for it), and have downshifted to the appropriate gear beforehand in anticipation of the opportunity. At least that's what I do.

SanDust said:
In any event, it's hard to rely on the stick argument because, if you do, then the other numbers in the review are wrong. The review of the Cruze Eco with a manual transmission found that 0-60 MHP time was 9.8 seconds. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2011-chevrolet-cruze-eco-drive-chevy-cruze-review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The Cruze with automatic was faster 0-60 MPH at 8.9 seconds but that's slower than the 8.5 seconds used in the "comparison" article. That number would also show the Volt was faster 0-60 MPH, but since that would not fit the story line it's unsurprising that the "new" number has the "advantage" of making the Cruze seem faster than the Volt. Now I can see if you wanted to get a certain 0-60 MPH number you might be able to move the needle from 8.9 seconds to 8.5 seconds if you were willing to cheat. It would be bogus but possible. What isn't possible is moving the number from 9.8 seconds to 8.5 seconds.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that an automatic would have a better 0-60 time than a stick; I expect it owing to the slower shifts of a manual. Now, as to the respective speeds in the Cruze review, please note that the 9.8 sec time was estimated, not measured. There is usually a tenth or two difference in 0-60 times between the different car mag's tests. Personally, except for doing a short freeway merge from a complete stop (at a metering light, or when someone doesn't know how to merge into fast traffic and comes to a halt on the on-ramp), I don't find small differences in 0-60 times particularly important, as I've never been all that interested in drag-racing. And having driven far too many miles in my dad's '76 Peugeot 504 Diesel, I figure if I survived the numerous white knuckle merges and passes that car inflicted on me (0-60 in 28.1 seconds), anything faster is a non-event. That car seemed to require about 3 miles of clearance and visibility on a flat 2-lane road to do a 50-70 pass and took just about forever to wind up, so you had to be in the right gear at the right rpm before you started.

SanDust said:
As noted, there is no way of making the Volt louder without really working hard at it (thank you Rusty for noting the couple of ways you could cook up this crazy number). But that's just another misleading bogus number given that we're supposedly looking at "real world" numbers.

Bottom line is that this is a whack job article where the numbers were made up to fit the story line.
Sorry, I'm not buying it. What would be their reason for doing so? C & D is for driving enthusiasts, all they care about is how the car performs, no black helicopters need apply. After all, this is the same mag that 20 or 30 years ago had their own staffers do a test of driving while straight and then repeat it while high on pot, and found that in general they tended to drive more carefully, less aggressively (a group of notorious leadfeet) and hit fewer cones when they were high. Hardly a crowd likely to bend to common dogma, and as far as I'm aware, this is the only magazine article to directly compare two cars in the real world that are often being directly compared by consumers. I know if I were considering the Volt I'd compare it to the Cruze and (given my circumstances and requirements) opt for the Cruze. Or I would if the Cruze wasn't rated Much Worse than Average by Consumer Reports, but that's specific to the Cruze, not endemic to comparisons between comparable ICEs, HEVs and PHEVs.

BTW, the March C & D has tests of the Fisker Karma and Mitsubishi i. The March Motor Trend also has a test of the Fisker (the C & D one is more extensive), and an article on the various upcoming versions of the Fusion, including the HEV and PHEV.
 
thanks for posting this, it helps put things in perspective. If my needs were different, I'd own a Volt and I'd be striving to be as gasless as possible too. I think the EV parking situation will get less contentious once there is a decent L3 network for folks driving BEV's who are critically in need of a charge.

scottf200 said:
Volt owners have a 10K EV club to join. A little self congratulatory I admit but many Volt owners are keen to drive EV miles as much as possible. Noticed that from voltstats.net that quite a few are there but have not "joined" (you can sort on EV miles). 463 folks on voltstats.net with 1,952,832 EV miles.

Chevrolet Volt EV Hall of Fame

10000EV_miles_decal_thumb_medium200_196.jpg
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
thanks for posting this, it helps put things in perspective.
And those 1.9M EV miles don't even include my piddly 14K+ EV miles, as I don't participate on voltstats.net. But my *other* car has almost 15K miles on it too.

Oh wait, they're the same car!

My Volt replaced a compact car I used as my daily commuter, and as my preferred car for driving around the country. Now I have an EV as my daily commuter, and a really comfortable to drive long-haul car that gets over 40 MPG on the open road. Even nicer, when I get to where I'm going, I've got an EV again for my visiting driving :)

The Leaf is a great commuter, but for my particular driving circumstance even a big battery BEV like a Tesla just wouldn't make it for me with today's infrastructure. I can do two car's worth of driving in a year (as I have this last). The Volt happens to work out well for me, in that I can use a single car to do it with.
 
hill said:
In California now, ONE manufacturer recently had their lacky legislator get the law changed, so that it's actually ILLEGAL to use courtesy plackards (in public parking lots ... not applicable to private lots) ... but I found that courtesy placards was the way several plugin folks used to do, and that worked just fine.

Actually, the new law applies to private lots too- but they can only tow if they have the appropriate signage ("for EV charging only, others will be towed, to reclaim your car call this number, etc."), and very few- if any- do yet. So even a simple "EV charging only" sign is not sufficient to disallow sharing via the placards. I, too, encourage those willing to be unplugged to continue to use them. Alternatively the "newcomer" vehicle can leave a note asking to be plugged in when the first one leaves. This has worked for 15 years, and there's no reason to believe the practice is suddenly obsolete just because there are more EVs on the road now.

However, I agree with a few things that have been said in this thread. These "teething issues" should be expected- yes, some drivers do feel entitled, but many are just new to this and don't realize that there are enough PH/EVs on the road that they may indeed be "blocking" a spot from another. Consider how excited we all still get to see another plug-in "in the wild"- they're just not that common yet. We have a similar issue with Leafs and Volts that park in front of the old SPI chargers, not realizing there are still RAV EVs left that use them. And as frustrating as it is to find the spots occupied, it's very rare that any single public charge will make the difference between getting home or not. Should a driver truly be in that spot, I'm all for being unplugged at any SOC rather than leaving someone stranded, but I realize others may not feel the same.

But as someone pointed out, there's no way of knowing whether those Volts finished charging 5 minutes or 4 hours before. We do need to promote common courtesy in not parking in these spots longer than necessary for charging, but it's worth allowing a little grace too, especially in the beginning. New drivers won't initially know exactly how long their cars will take to charge, and may miscalculate. Not all can receive a text message when charging is complete (and not all that can, know they can), or be able to leave what they're doing at that exact moment. FWIW, the monetized chargers generally charge money for as long as the vehicle is connected, regardless of how long it's actually munching electrons. But for a variety of reasons, most spots are and will remain free for at least several years.

The plug-in population will grow fastest if we as a community are more inclusive, rather than assuming the worst about each other from the start. Those cynical assumptions are what allowed AB475 to pass- GM successfully convinced people that unless they protect us from ourselves, we will randomly unplug each other, target Volts for unplugging, etc. But just as we sorted the sharing protocol as a community of experienced drivers many years ago, we are best equipped to help educate those that join us now. At some locations, we've created notes reminding people not to park at incompatible chargers, or to consider forgoing a charge if it's not needed at the highest traffic locations (LAX is a particular issue until the rest of the retrofitting is done.) It's worth trying something similar in these situations- leave a note welcoming the new person as a fellow EV driver, with a reminder not to park longer than needed, use a placard allowing their car to be disconnected, or at least a phone number. We could print a few sample placards and include one- making it easy to use will increase the likelihood it will. It won't work with everyone, but it will with some...and ideally, they'll turn around and do the same with those new drivers they come across.
 
evchels said:
But just as we sorted the sharing protocol as a community of experienced drivers many years ago, we are best equipped to help educate those that join us now. At some locations, we've created notes reminding people not to park at incompatible chargers, or to consider forgoing a charge if it's not needed at the highest traffic locations (LAX is a particular issue until the rest of the retrofitting is done.) It's worth trying something similar in these situations- leave a note welcoming the new person as a fellow EV driver, with a reminder not to park longer than needed, use a placard allowing their car to be disconnected

But there's a basic issue with when to decide a car no longer benefits from being connected. Any battery vehicle with an active thermal management system (TMS) is going to want to be connected in uncomfortable weather (probably above 80F or below 40F). That includes Volts, Tesla Roadsters and Model S's, Ford Focus Electric, probably the BMW models, likely the Spark, and... well... anything that isn't a Nissan, Mitsubishi, or Toyota at this point. Even if the vehicle has a full charge when disconnected, in weather extremes (especially hot weather) the TMS is likely to operate. That prolongs battery longevity (or so the story goes), but it drains the battery and reduces range for when the driver returns. How much? My understanding is a Volt will drain the battery to 50% SOC if left for awhile in hot weather.

This isn't normally an issue, because most cars aren't left at a parking spot long enough after charging to really worry about the TMS effect on the SOC (presuming the battery is well insulated). But it's specifically a problem at long term parking like at an airport. What I'd *much* rather see at an airport is instead of 6 or 8 240V@30A EVSEs, is 60 or 80 120V@6A maintenance EVSEs (or if the parking lot is 3-phase 90 or 120 720W EVSEs!). It's the same amount of power, and it's more than enough power to maintain a TMS even in the hottest likely weather.

Sure, a 120V@6A EVSE is likely to take 40 hours to recharge a dead empty Leaf. But if you're parking at an airport you may just have 40 hours. And if you're just taking a day hop from LAX to SFO they can still have a few of the bigger 240V EVSEs around too.

The point I'm trying to make is that some (and quite possibly most, in the near future) fully charged battery electric vehicles still get significant benefits from remaining plugged in to an EVSE. They certainly won't be drawing full power. But they'll still be drawing power from time to time. Certainly they can be unplugged if somebody else needs a charge. But they aren't just sitting there hogging a spot. They'll want to be plugged back in if nobody else needs a charge in order to maintain their TMSs, or to recharge the battery from its powering of the TMS while it was unplugged.
 
This can be done. Network 60 units but only allow the equivalent of 10 full L2s running at a time. This maybe accomplished by the user inputting the charge they will need and when they will need it
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
This maybe accomplished by the user inputting the charge they will need and when they will need it
Interesting idea to network EVSEs into a community power pool. But the problem with that for maintenance power is (as far as I know) there's no way for the vehicle to tell the EVSE "I only need 6A@120V" or "I'd like 15A@240V". Any car with a TMS is going to want to charge full rate until it's charged, then it'd want to fall back to lower power.

I suppose a Hydra EVSE could try to keep track by offering its maximum power per EVSE on first connection and monitoring how much power each tap is pulling. It could then renegotiate the availability to match the draw. Then once a vehicle goes to near zero draw it would renegotiate back to 6 amps availability. And in a crunch the Hydra could just "unplug itself" from a low power (or camping) car just by simulating a power failure on that EVSE.

I don't know if the current crop of cars can even renegotiate the EVSE power level after charging begins. But I suppose likewise if the Hydra wanted to renegotiate it could again simulate a power fail and renegotiate when it "reconnects".

Interesting idea indeed!
 
It is mind boggling to me that the Volt isn't more popular and selling like hot cakes... if only gas prices would go up, oh wait, they're about to!
more people need to hear your story!!

Rusty said:
GaslessInSeattle said:
thanks for posting this, it helps put things in perspective.
And those 1.9M EV miles don't even include my piddly 14K+ EV miles, as I don't participate on voltstats.net. But my *other* car has almost 15K miles on it too.

Oh wait, they're the same car!

My Volt replaced a compact car I used as my daily commuter, and as my preferred car for driving around the country. Now I have an EV as my daily commuter, and a really comfortable to drive long-haul car that gets over 40 MPG on the open road. Even nicer, when I get to where I'm going, I've got an EV again for my visiting driving :)

The Leaf is a great commuter, but for my particular driving circumstance even a big battery BEV like a Tesla just wouldn't make it for me with today's infrastructure. I can do two car's worth of driving in a year (as I have this last). The Volt happens to work out well for me, in that I can use a single car to do it with.
 
Rusty said:
I wish there was an inexpensive way to make EVSEs that were limited to 6 amp 120V charging (or even 3 amp, though I don't think J1772 supports that) so that EVSEs with real TMSs could remained plugged in indefinitely without taking up valuable battery recharging stations.
I certainly don't know what the numbers are for Volts, and I don't think we really have them nailed down for LEAFS, but it looks like the LEAF charger eats about 10% itself and its cooling system takes another 300 watts or so. If you tried to charge at 3A 120v, that's 360W minus (maybe) 35W for the charger and 300W for the cooling. So the battery might only get 25W. Now that's what I call a trickle charge! Something like 3 days per bar, maybe? And of course the saddest part would be that more than 90% of the electricity coming out of the wall would be wasted.

No, I don't think you really want to wish for that.

Ray
 
Rusty said:
...there's a basic issue with when to decide a car no longer benefits from being connected. Any battery vehicle with an active thermal management system (TMS) is going to want to be connected in uncomfortable weather (probably above 80F or below 40F)...

...The point I'm trying to make is that some (and quite possibly most, in the near future) fully charged battery electric vehicles still get significant benefits from remaining plugged in to an EVSE...

The point you made to me, is yet another reason delicate batteries that get "uncomfortable" in normal ambient temperatures are impractical, and likely to be superseded by more robust designs, such as the LEAF's.

Have you thought of the huge expense required to put a power source wherever a PHEV or BEV needing TMS might park for a few days?
 
Rusty said:
The point I'm trying to make is that some (and quite possibly most, in the near future) fully charged battery electric vehicles still get significant benefits from remaining plugged in to an EVSE.

Perhaps, but this is both a geographically specific issue, and boils down to siting the right speed of charging in the right place from the outset. None of these vehicles are going to degrade significantly from being unplugged in a typical public charging scenario- and certainly not in a matter of hours, which is the window we'd see in most Level 2 situations if someone were to be unplugged for purposes of another car charging. For longer-term cases like airports, it makes more sense to install 120v outlets than to concede that a liquid TMS car should get to occupy a Level 2 spot for days longer than it takes to charge on the off-chance it may benefit from remaining connected for TMS purposes.

Bottom line is that we're still only talking about voluntary charger sharing via the placards. So anyone who feels particularly sensitive about their TMS simply shouldn't use one. But the need for education remains, and the existing drivers are best equipped to do it.
 
Rusty said:
GaslessInSeattle said:
thanks for posting this, it helps put things in perspective.
And those 1.9M EV miles don't even include my piddly 14K+ EV miles, as I don't participate on voltstats.net. But my *other* car has almost 15K miles on it too.

Oh wait, they're the same car!

My Volt replaced a compact car I used as my daily commuter, and as my preferred car for driving around the country. Now I have an EV as my daily commuter, and a really comfortable to drive long-haul car that gets over 40 MPG on the open road. Even nicer, when I get to where I'm going, I've got an EV again for my visiting driving :)

The Leaf is a great commuter, but for my particular driving circumstance even a big battery BEV like a Tesla just wouldn't make it for me with today's infrastructure. I can do two car's worth of driving in a year (as I have this last). The Volt happens to work out well for me, in that I can use a single car to do it with.
Defintely sounds like the Volt fits your needs nicely. I wish a Volt (or a Leaf, or some other EV) fit mine, but hopefully I won't have to wait too long until one does.
 
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