Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[Rusty]

The point I'm trying to make is that some (and quite possibly most, in the near future) fully charged battery electric vehicles still get significant benefits from remaining plugged in to an EVSE.

Perhaps, but this is both a geographically specific issue, and boils down to siting the right speed of charging in the right place from the outset. [...] For longer-term cases like airports, it makes more sense to install 120v outlets than to concede that a liquid TMS car should get to occupy a Level 2 spot for days longer than it takes to charge on the off-chance it may benefit from remaining connected for TMS purposes.

I agree wholeheartedly that placards should be the preferred EVSE handoff for daily use common access EVSEs. I also agree that having many L1 charging stations (depending on how you define "many") at long term parking places (like airports) would be preferred for cars with TMSs, rather than having them take up L2 EVSE spots. But having a Leaf parking at an L2 spot for 3 days doesn't make any more sense than having a Volt park there... I think large pool L1 charging stations should have J1772 heads on them rather than NEMA 5-15s. The theft risk is too high IMHO for leaving customer EVSEs laying around on the ground unattended.

The point you made to me, is yet another reason delicate batteries that get "uncomfortable" in normal ambient temperatures are impractical, and likely to be superseded by more robust designs, such as the LEAF's.

It remains to be seen in the market just how robust or sensitive one battery implementation is, compared to others. We'll see in some 8-10 years after battery vehicles have been in Phoenix just how much of an issue this is, brand to brand, as to which implementations prove to have made the best cost/reliability trade-offs. Baking all day in a parking lot at 140 degree temperatures for months and years on end should provide good data there.

If you tried to charge at 3A 120v, that's 360W minus (maybe) 35W for the charger and 300W for the cooling. So the battery might only get 25W. Now that's what I call a trickle charge!

Yeah, I thought about that after I wrote it. I think I agree with you. Charger overhead in most cars is probably going to eat up most of 360W. So maybe SAE wasn't completely stupid for having a 6A minimum after all. For just maintaining a TMS it's probably overkill. But it's probably not a *lot* of overkill...

 

[SanDust]

This is precisely the self-centered rationalisation that is displayed by those who do not require a charge, but plug in, just to get a prime parking space.

I wonder how long it will be before some ICEV drivers start installing dummy charge ports, to go with their fake "disabled" parking placards...

We don't know without research whether a Leaf "needs" a charge or not. How exactly would you determine this? Case in point: Hill didn't "need" a charge, he was just looking for a freebie. Or this example: A Leaf and a Volt both need to go 20 miles. The Leaf has eight bars. The Volt has 10 miles of EV range left. Which car "needs" the charge? Obviously to me the Volt does. Which takes me back to why I didn't worry about the Leaf parked in the charging space after it had finished (or not started conceivably) charging. I had plenty of range and getting a buck of free electricity would have been nice but hardly a big deal. It certainly didn't occur to me to get all worked up about it. Then again, unlike you, I don't arrogate to myself a special set of privileges because I lease a Leaf. I expect to stand in the same line as everyone else.

This is a good thing because it makes me less bitter. :lol:

 

[SanDust]

The point you made to me, is yet another reason delicate batteries that get "uncomfortable" in normal ambient temperatures are impractical, and likely to be superseded by more robust designs, such as the LEAF's.

Hopefully you haven't bought your Leaf or you live in a cold climate. If you do some research and then compare the battery in the Volt to the battery in the Leaf, the Volt battery has the same chemistry in the cathode, a better separator, and silicon rather than graphite at the anode. IOW it's somewhat superior.

The Leaf doesn't have a TMS because it would have cost too much for the target price point. There's no breakthrough chemistry. The A123 cells, on the other hand, have much greater cycle life and are more tolerant of temperature than either the Volt or Leaf cells, which is why my guess is that the Sonic EV won't have a TMS.

But for purposes of prolonging the life of a battery, having a TMS would always be better than not having one.

 

[hill]

This is precisely the self-centered rationalisation that is displayed by those who do not require a charge, but plug in, just to get a prime parking space.

I wonder how long it will be before some ICEV drivers start installing dummy charge ports, to go with their fake "disabled" parking placards...

We don't know without research whether a Leaf "needs" a charge or not. How exactly would you determine this? Case in point: Hill didn't "need" a charge, he was just looking for a freebie. . . . . . . . . . . . . snip

Wow, could have fooled me ~ I love it when folks just re-invent what you really said, then pull that dialogue out of their sphincter. Makes me wonder why anyone on the board bothers writing anything - if it gets distilled down into the opposite of what someone said. Let me just pull the part of my own dialogue from my earlier post, that got 'interpreted' exactly 180° of what I said:

" . . . Today I noticed the charge point map shows another location just touching the north west block adjacent to John Wayne airport - off of Park Plaza. Went by to check it out, because I was a bit low anyway. . . . . "

:roll:
That said . . . ANY plug-in ought to count on charge stalls being either ICED, or Inop, or in use when you get there ... and have an alternative to go to when you get there if your low on charge ... or in the case of a PHEV, low on charge AND out of petrol. In my case that day - I knew that if the new station was inop, or down, or in use, or ICED ~ it was just a few miles back the way I came (Costa Mesa - South Coast Plaza) where they have a whole bunch of charge stations). If those all failed, I could still have turtle'ed into the Nissan dealership - just a few blocks farther west. So no ... I wasn't scrounging the county just so I could save 95¢ . . . when I get that hard up for 95¢ ~ I'd rather pull aluminum cans out of dumpsters. That'd be faster than waiting on an L2, and leave more of my time for more valuable things.

.

 

[GRA]

The point you made to me, is yet another reason delicate batteries that get "uncomfortable" in normal ambient temperatures are impractical, and likely to be superseded by more robust designs, such as the LEAF's.

Hopefully you haven't bought your Leaf or you live in a cold climate. If you do some research and then compare the battery in the Volt to the battery in the Leaf, the Volt battery has the same chemistry in the cathode, a better separator, and silicon rather than graphite at the anode. IOW it's somewhat superior.

The Leaf doesn't have a TMS because it would have cost too much for the target price point. There's no breakthrough chemistry. The A123 cells, on the other hand, have much greater cycle life and are more tolerant of temperature than either the Volt or Leaf cells, which is why my guess is that the Sonic EV won't have a TMS.

But for purposes of prolonging the life of a battery, having a TMS would always be better than not having one.

Could you provide a source for the bolded statement? I've been looking for data on degradation curves and temperature effects of the LiFePO4 cells, but haven't found much. Although they have a lower energy density and specific energy than LiMn2O4 cells, Coda's claim that they only degrade 7% after 100k miles of use is a valuable feature. Ideally, I'd rather have a battery where I didn't have to account for capacity degradation due to age at all in my calcs, even if it meant my max. range when new was less. I'm more concerned with guaranteed range.

 

[JeffN]

The point you made to me, is yet another reason delicate batteries that get "uncomfortable" in normal ambient temperatures are impractical, and likely to be superseded by more robust designs, such as the LEAF's.

Hopefully you haven't bought your Leaf or you live in a cold climate. If you do some research and then compare the battery in the Volt to the battery in the Leaf, the Volt battery has the same chemistry in the cathode, a better separator, and silicon rather than graphite at the anode. IOW it's somewhat superior.

There is reasonably good data available on the LEAF battery. It uses a Manganese Spinel cathode with some added Nickel. It is harder to find details about the LG Chem battery in the Volt. It appears to also be Manganese Spinel with Nickel but also some Cobalt in the cathode. The LG Chem separator has some ceramic enhancement which is claimed to be superior. The LG Chem anode is not silicon-based, as far as I can tell. Rather, it appears to be a mix of regular graphite and amorphous (hard) carbon. The LEAF anode is graphite. The LEAF and Volt LG Chem cells appear to have roughly similar packaging and energy density by weight and volume (145-160 Wh/kg, 275-300 Wh/L). The Volt cell is apparently rated for 10C continuous discharge which is better than average so the 16 kWh pack of cells is rated to put out at least 160 kW although GM rates the pack as 111 kW which matches the Volt's larger motor. The Volt cells are also apparently claimed to meet a goal of 5,000 cycles and 10-15 years of calendar life. I'm not clear about the cold temperature performance of the LEAF and Volt cells. The newer LEAF cars with the "cold climate" package include a battery pack heater. The Volt has active liquid heating and cooling support for its cells.

Both LEAF and Volt cells appear to be good state-of-the-art designs.

 

[scottf200]

It is all in the data logger box : Uwe Winter - January 27, 201
http://opel-ampera.com/wp_en/2012/01/27/it’s-all-in-the-box/

We engineers are already working on the next generation of the Ampera. In order to fine tune the car even better to customers’ needs and utility profiles, we’d like to know what the Ampera driver’s behavior looks like on a day-to-day basis. We get help with this from so-called data loggers in the test cars. Over 40 electric cars equipped with this little box have been in operation in Germany, Dubai, Arizona and Michigan for around two years. Mostly colleagues from the areas of battery development, energy management, powertrain control, endurance testing and quality control gather this valuable field data. I also have one of these small boxes in my company car. I regularly drive to our research center in Mainz-Kastel to “unload” the data, easily and comfortably over W-LAN.
<snip>

~26 mph = 42 km/h
~30 mph = 48 km/h
~45 mph = 72 km/h
~62 mph = 100 km/h
~77 mph = 126 km/h
~90 mph = 144 km/h

 

[DaveEV]

It is all in the data logger box : Uwe Winter - January 27, 201
http://opel-ampera.com/wp_en/2012/01/27/it’s-all-in-the-box/

Pretty cool. It's also pretty clear that the Volt/Ampera needs more regen and more power. But then again I suspect that most cars are driven this way.

The chart is also insightful that the Volt/Ampera apparently allows up to nearly 70 kW of regen? Impressive. Also interesting to see the 3 distince regen lines - I assume that these come from preset regen levels based on driving mode?

Acceleration / kW map looks like your typical EV - flat torque up to set speed (~26 mph) then power limited. Looks like the Amperas regularly test the speed limiter, too. Top speed is definitely not power limited - I wonder why they didn't increase the top-speed some?

 

[scottf200]

The chart is also insightful that the Volt/Ampera apparently allows up to nearly 70 kW of regen? Impressive. Also interesting to see the 3 distince regen lines - I assume that these come from preset regen levels based on driving mode?

Modest regen happens in D(rive) and then we have more aggressive regen in "L(ow)". The most is likely manually foot braking where the car is seeing you want to slow down pretty aggressively and uses max regen to assist/benefit that.

 

[DrInnovation]

Interesting data. You can clearly see the 55kw long term limit of the generator. Anything above that, except the max accel yellow line is infrequent.
The little green region at (165km/hr (100mph), -55), is hopefully people on the autobahn not in arizona. Hot spot at 48km/hr (30mph) and a noticable blue streak in the lowest sloped regen line at low speed (which I would get is regen in D) -- suggesting more of these drivers are in D when regen than in L.

 

[scottf200]

Interesting data. You can clearly see the 55kw long term limit of the generator. Anything above that, except the max accel yellow line is infrequent.
The little green region at (165km/hr (100mph), -55), is hopefully people on the autobahn not in arizona. Hot spot at 48km/hr (30mph) and a noticable blue streak in the lowest sloped regen line at low speed (which I would get is regen in D) -- suggesting more of these drivers are in D when regen than in L.

Notice the regen drop off at ~77 mph = 126 km/h? Mode 2 high-speed EV? ie. generator no longer used as such and is then turned into a propulsion "motor"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/10/chevy-volt-delivers-novel-two-motor-four-mode-extended-range-electric-drive-system-seamless-driver-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mode 2: High-Speed EV Propulsion (Engine Off). As vehicle speed increases, motor speed and losses also increase. To engage both motors and preserve motor efficiency, clutch C1 is disengaged, allowing the ring gear to rotate. At the same time, clutch C2 is engaged, connecting the ring gear to the generator-motor. The generator-motor is then fed current from the inverter, and runs as a motor. The engine remains disengaged from the generator-motor.

This mode allows the two electric machines to operate in tandem at a lower speed than if the traction motor alone was providing torque. The speed of the traction motor in this mode drops to about 3250 rpm from 6500 rpm in the 1 motor mode, according to Fletcher.

This strategy allows the Volt to wring out as much as two extra miles of all-electric operation out of its battery pack, depending on operating conditions. However, switching from low-speed to high-speed EV mode requires the simultaneous operation of two clutches. GM’s experience with simultaneous clutch operation in their two-mode transmissions and transaxles was key to the development of the Volt’s transaxle control strategy.

 

[Ready2plugin]

I just found out my brother is getting a Volt. He gets a company car since he does sales for GE Medical. He is not the only one, according to him, GE has an order in for 25,000! Maybe hard for the LEAF to keep up with the Volt this year, at least in fleet sales.

 

[Rusty]

GE has an order in for 25,000! Maybe hard for the LEAF to keep up with the Volt this year

And Hamtramck now is back in production after the new-year's break for retooling and implementation of CA smog and battery structure changes.

Initial production rate based on VINs coming out of the paint shack look to be about 4,000 units a month. We'll have to see how many of those sell, and see what the fleet/direct sales splits look like.

 

[TomT]

The only problem with fleet sales from the manufacturer's perspective is that they tend to be very low profit margin sales...

I just found out my brother is getting a Volt. He gets a company car since he does sales for GE Medical. He is not the only one, according to him, GE has an order in for 25,000! Maybe hard for the LEAF to keep up with the Volt this year, at least in fleet sales.

 

[DrInnovation]

I just found out my brother is getting a Volt. He gets a company car since he does sales for GE Medical. He is not the only one, according to him, GE has an order in for 25,000! Maybe hard for the LEAF to keep up with the Volt this year, at least in fleet sales.

Nice article on this at
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1073034_ge-employees-get-chevy-volt-electric-cars-all-gas-use-oked-sometimes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If they really do go for 25,000 that would be huge for this years EV sales. Volt, Leaf, PiP.. The more the better!

 

[Herm]

GE is not paying taxes this year.. with all those EV credits.

 

[Rusty]

The only problem with fleet sales from the manufacturer's perspective is that they tend to be very low profit margin sales...

But they'll make it up in volume

Which in this case could work, since the consumer volume on the manufacturing line could use a boost to improve the cost per unit. If they make no money selling cars to GE but lower their costs to produce based on volume, it would improve their profit per consumer sale, yes?

 

[DrInnovation]

The only problem with fleet sales from the manufacturer's perspective is that they tend to be very low profit margin sales...

But they'll make it up in volume

Which in this case could work, since the consumer volume on the manufacturing line could use a boost to improve the cost per unit. If they make no money selling cars to GE but lower their costs to produce based on volume, it would improve their profit per consumer sale, yes?

Since for any EV, getting people to understand them is an expensive "marketing" position, having 25000 volt drivers out there, especially as traveling sales folks interacting with high-end doctors and hospital admins, could be worth a lot of marketing dollars.

And if it improves the market share/mindshare it could boost long term profits significantly if it can then reduce marketing costs and price reductions if demand stays high.

From a different view, I doubt the "GM" buy would have been an different more profitable GM car, the fleet buyers beat them on on price for anything. And if it had been a different brand, it would have been lost market/mindshare.

 

[TomT]

They didn't last year either! :lol:

GE is not paying taxes this year.. with all those EV credits.

 

[abasile]

And as frustrating as it is to find the spots occupied, it's very rare that any single public charge will make the difference between getting home or not. Should a driver truly be in that spot, I'm all for being unplugged at any SOC rather than leaving someone stranded, but I realize others may not feel the same.

Nearly every time we do public charging, it is so we can extend the range of our LEAF instead of driving a gasser. So if you ever see my LEAF charging somewhere, I truly do need the charge to get home (or some other destination).

Thankfully, the infrastructure is improving. When we first got our LEAF in April 2011, we had to rely on charging at Nissan dealers for longer trips. Now there are significantly more options, plus a soon to be turned on Quick Charger in a helpful location.

Normally we have options as to where we plug in, and are not totally dependent on one single charging location. I would only unplug another EV without permission in an "emergency" (which hasn't happened to us), and even then, I'd plug it back in when I'm done and leave a note.