Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[GRA]

Here's one person voting for a base model Volt with ~20 miles AER.

Yes - we should have those variations to cater to people who are more price sensitive - just as base Leaf with 24 kWh battery should still be available in gen 2 too.

Just as OEMs figured out it was important to have all kinds of bells of whistles as options in ICE car - for plugins battery size should be considered a core option where consumers should get some choices.

It's not only price sensitivity on the car, it's also charging availability and the price of that. A battery providing 20 miles of AER is about the largest that can be fully charged in eight hours overnight on L1, and NEMA 5-15Rs or 5-20Rs are a lot more common than 240V receptacles, especially in rental housing. So not only do you get a cheaper car, but you also cut down the hassle factor by not needing to get permits and electrician quotes or pay for an L2 EVSE and installation; you can just use the portable EVSE that comes with the car.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Depends on your definition of overnight. L1 won't cut it for party animals but for a more sedate crowd that gets home by 7pm and is rolling again by 7am the 40ish range on the Volt is no problem to recover overnight on 120v.

 

[GRA]

Depends on your definition of overnight. L1 won't cut it for party animals but for a more sedate crowd that gets home by 7pm and is rolling again by 7am the 40ish range on the Volt is no problem to recover overnight on 120v.

My definition of overnight is an 8-hour off-peak (and/or super off-peak depending on the utility) window. It's possible with some utilities' rate schedules to do more, but I think 8 hours is a good average. For those who can benefit, getting the larger size of pack on the Volt is the way to go. And for some people, having L2 is worth it. But 20 miles overnight on L1 should be the base, because 49% of the U.S. population averages 20 miles or less/day. Add workplace L1 for say 4-6 hours (no on-peak charging) and you're probably covering 70% or more of daily drivers. As long as it's cheaper (and more convenient) to add non-routine range by ICE instead of bigger batteries, PHEVs are the most economical way to get more people into PEVs.

Although IMO you're paying far too much of a premium for the brand name, the i3 w/REx's basic design idea is good (not the decisions to cripple it by putting in too small a tank, and especially leaving out a 'Hold' button). Having a choice of 20/40/70 mile AER PHEVs, provided they're priced appropriately, is a good thing.

 

[evnow]

Interesting take on L1 and overnight charging.

But I don't think we are there yet i.e. a lot of price sensitive people for whom $500 or so would be a deal breaker. Those are the people who normally buy a $10k used car.

We are talking about $30k+ car.

 

[GRA]

Interesting take on L1 and overnight charging.

But I don't think we are there yet i.e. a lot of price sensitive people for whom $500 or so would be a deal breaker. Those are the people who normally buy a $10k used car.

We are talking about $30k+ car.

In this case I think it's price plus 'hassle factor'. At $30k the latter may loom larger, but there are plenty of price sensitive people at a $30k price point. And if PEVs are ever going to be truly mass market, they need to get some with base MSRPs at $25k and ideally $20k for when the subsidies end, so they can compete with Civic/Corolla/Camry/Accord. As long as the higher MSRP is offset by O&M savings within about 3 years, many people can justify the economics.

 

[evnow]

In this case I think it's price plus 'hassle factor'. At $30k the latter may loom larger, but there are plenty of price sensitive people at a $30k price point. And if PEVs are ever going to be truly mass market, they need to get some with base MSRPs at $25k, and ideally $20k, for when the subsidies end, so they can compete with Civic/Corolla/Camry/Accord. As long as the higher MSRP is offset by O&M savings within about 3 years, many people can justify the economics.

Yes, convenience plays a big factor. On price points - it is really a sliding scale. Lower price obviously gets a bigger addressable market, ofcourse.

The other thing is to make bigger plugin cars - they automatically command a higher price. Just look at how well fusion energy sells or Model S.

 

[RegGuheert]

I do hope GM succeeds in adding the fifth seat, improving the gas mileage and reducing the price of the Volt for 2016. Those differences might have swayed my decision toward the Volt. (Of course the LEAF will get its own refresh within a year of the Volt.)

Here's one person voting for a base model Volt with ~20 miles AER.

Yes - we should have those variations to cater to people who are more price sensitive - just as base Leaf with 24 kWh battery should still be available in gen 2 too.

I think BEVs need a base-model EPA range of approximately 100 miles to achieve wide acceptance. As such, I pushed Nissan toward 30 kWh for the their base model. There are just too many compromises at 24 kWh to have a wide market penetration. (What they chose for the base LEAF I have no idea.) Yes, that will keep the base price a bit high today, but it will come down in time. An option with more than 125-mile EPA range should open the market up significantly.

It's not only price sensitivity on the car, it's also charging availability and the price of that. A battery providing 20 miles of AER is about the largest that can be fully charged in eight hours overnight on L1, and NEMA 5-15Rs or 5-20Rs are a lot more common than 240V receptacles, especially in rental housing. So not only do you get a cheaper car, but you also cut down the hassle factor by not needing to get permits and electrician quotes or pay for an L2 EVSE and installation; you can just use the portable EVSE that comes with the car.

I understand the benefit of reducing the battery size in a PHEV to reduce cost, but you can use L1 charging regardless of the battery size. Your *daily* electric range is still limited by the charging rate, but with a larger battery you have more flexibility.

BTW, I think promoting NEMA 5-15Rs or 5-20Rs for standard charging of EVs is simply a recipe for more and more fires. I'm a fan of using wall-mounted L1 EVSEs where they make sense. I have previously promoted their use in airports, and I believe they make sense for apartments, as well, and for the same reasons. The benefit of L1 EVSEs over L2 is that many more (~6X) charging stations can be offered on the same electrical service. It would allow landlords to provide a safe, low-hassle solution for many more of their residents while providing for EV commutes up to about 50 miles per day for a small monthly access fee. Any additional driving the tenants wanted to make could be handled by burning gasoline, public charging, workplace charging or using a larger battery and additional charging over weekends.

The apartment complex could also offer L2 charging for a significantly higher fee if they have sufficient electrical service available (which I doubt most would).

It may even be possible in some apartments to tie the individual EVSEs into the meter for each individual apartment and let the renters pay energy usage. L1 or L2 choice in that case would depend mainly on available service to each unit and overall to the complex. Obviously offering L2 would be more attractive.

As BEVs and PHEVs become more popular, charging options at apartment complexes will become a selling feature that they can use to compete with each other.

 

[lorenfb]

"I understand the benefit of reducing the battery size in a PHEV to reduce cost, but you can use L1 charging regardless of the battery size."

L1 charging becomes impractical as BEV ranges exceed 150 miles, i.e. battery capacities exceed 40-50 kWhrs.
Imagine a Tesla MS owner restricted to only L1 charging or finding a local SC.

By the way, have to love the Volt owners that do their Costco shopping while their Volt is free L2 charging
at a Nissan dealer across the street.

 

[evnow]

I think BEVs need a base-model EPA range of approximately 100 miles to achieve wide acceptance. As such, I pushed Nissan toward 30 kWh for the their base model. There are just too many compromises at 24 kWh to have a wide market penetration. (What they chose for the base LEAF I have no idea.) Yes, that will keep the base price a bit high today, but it will come down in time.

It is better to have that 150/110/80 options than to raise the base price. When for the same base price they can offer 100 miles, they should.

Widespread adoption is a sliding scale ... the higher the range for the same price gets larger sales. If both range and price are increased, they will lose some sales as well. That is why it is better to have options - than remove the lowest option (like Tesla did).

 

[RegGuheert]

"I understand the benefit of reducing the battery size in a PHEV to reduce cost, but you can use L1 charging regardless of the battery size."

L1 charging becomes impractical as BEV ranges exceed 150 miles, i.e. battery capacities exceed 40-50 kWhrs.
Imagine a Tesla MS owner restricted to only L1 charging or finding a local SC.

No argument. But notice we are discussing PHEVs and GRA is specifically discussing reducing entry costs.

Still, the fact remains that you can commute ~50 miles each day in most EVs using L1 charging. Efficiency and climate may lower this somewhat.

 

[RegGuheert]

It is better to have that 150/110/80 options than to raise the base price. When for the same base price they can offer 100 miles, they should.

I should have been more clear. That was my suggestion: Offer the 30 kWh base version for the current price of today's 24 kWh version.

 

[GRA]

do hope GM succeeds in adding the fifth seat, improving the gas mileage and reducing the price of the Volt for 2016. Those differences might have swayed my decision toward the Volt. (Of course the LEAF will get its own refresh within a year of the Volt.)

Here's one person voting for a base model Volt with ~20 miles AER.

Yes - we should have those variations to cater to people who are more price sensitive - just as base Leaf with 24 kWh battery should still be available in gen 2 too.

I think BEVs need a base-model EPA range of approximately 100 miles to achieve wide acceptance. As such, I pushed Nissan toward 30 kWh for the their base model. There are just too many compromises at 24 kWh to Ihave a wide market penetration. (What they chose for the base LEAF I have no idea.) Yes, that will keep the base price a bit high today, but it will come down in time. An option with more than 125-mile EPA range should open the market up significantly.

Agreed; for the U.S. the base model range has to be higher than areas where people have shorter commutes and/or more moderate temps.

It's not only price sensitivity on the car, it's also charging availability and the price of that. A battery providing 20 miles of AER is about the largest that can be fully charged in eight hours overnight on L1, and NEMA 5-15Rs or 5-20Rs are a lot more common than 240V receptacles, especially in rental housing. So not only do you get a cheaper car, but you also cut down the hassle factor by not needing to get permits and electrician quotes or pay for an L2 EVSE and installation; you can just use the portable EVSE that comes with the car.

I understand the benefit of reducing the battery size in a PHEV to reduce cost, but you can use L1 charging regardless of the battery size. Your *daily* electric range is still limited by the charging rate, but with a larger battery you have more flexibility.

Of course you do, but the point is to get the price down by not paying for more battery (and infrastructure) than you can routinely use, not to maximize AER in the edge cases for the small % of people who are ideologically motivated and willing/able to pay for it. Those people (should) have the option of a bigger battery.

BTW, I think promoting NEMA 5-15Rs or 5-20Rs for standard charging of EVs is simply a recipe for more and more fires. I'm a fan of using wall-mounted L1 EVSEs where they make sense. I have previously promoted their use in airports, and I believe they make sense for apartments, as well, and for the same reasons. The benefit of L1 EVSEs over L2 is that many more (~6X) charging stations can be offered on the same electrical service. It would allow landlords to provide a safe, low-hassle solution for many more of their residents while providing for EV commutes up to about 50 miles per day for a small monthly access fee. Any additional driving the tenants wanted to make could be handled by burning gasoline, public charging, workplace charging or using a larger battery and additional charging over weekends.

The safety issue of 5-15s especially is a concern for me too, but it will at least encourage inspectors and property owners to make sure the circuits are in good repair and use high quality receptacles. I'm also a big fan of using a lower charge rate than 12A on a 15A circuit if you can, which again limits the amount of battery you can reasonably make use of.

The apartment complex could also offer L2 charging for a significantly higher fee if they have sufficient electrical service available (which I doubt most would).

It may even be possible in some apartments to tie the individual EVSEs into the meter for each individual apartment and let the renters pay energy usage. L1 or L2 choice in that case would depend mainly on available service to each unit and overall to the complex. Obviously offering L2 would be more attractive.

As BEVs and PHEVs become more popular, charging options at apartment complexes will become a selling feature that they can use to compete with each other.

That's my thought as well.

 

[lorenfb]

"In this case I think it's price plus 'hassle factor'. At $30k the latter may loom larger, but there are plenty of price sensitive people at a $30k price point. And if PEVs are ever going to be truly mass market, they need to get some with base MSRPs at $25k and ideally $20k for when the subsidies end, so they can compete with Civic/Corolla/Camry/Accord. As long as the higher MSRP is offset by O&M savings within about 3 years, many people can justify the economics."

Don't you think most all automotive OEM strategic market guys are aware of this? Like it's pretty basic Marketing 101. Based on what re-occurs in many posts, many seem to think most all automotive OEMs
are totally out of touch with the EV market place, except for maybe one (Tesla).

 

[GRA]

"In this case I think it's price plus 'hassle factor'. At $30k the latter may loom larger, but there are plenty of price sensitive people at a $30k price point. And if PEVs are ever going to be truly mass market, they need to get some with base MSRPs at $25k and ideally $20k for when the subsidies end, so they can compete with Civic/Corolla/Camry/Accord. As long as the higher MSRP is offset by O&M savings within about 3 years, many people can justify the economics."

Don't you think most all automotive OEM strategic market guys are aware of this? Like it's pretty basic Marketing 101. Based on what re-occurs in many posts, many seem to think most all automotive OEMs
are totally out of touch with the EV market place, except for maybe one (Tesla).

Considering the numerous bonehead moves by most of the companies offering EVs over the past 3.5 years, it's clear that many of them had no idea whatever how to market EVs to early adopters. I'd like to believe that they're smarter when it comes to 'normal' consumers, but then some company like GM comes out with the ELR priced as it is, and blows that theory out of the water.

 

[evnow]

Agreed; for the U.S. the base model range has to be higher than areas where peopel have shorter commutes and/or more moderate temps.

For the same price ? Then all you are saying is they should reduce the price.

Anyway - my contention is - if they can make a 110 mile Leaf for $30k - then they should make a 80 mile one for $27k. There is no particular reason why the base model "has" to have a higher range.

 

[edatoakrun]

This Anti-Obama (?) site seems to be the source for several recent articles re Volt resale values.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2014/08/color-me-shocked-chevy-volt-resale.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

COLOR ME SHOCKED: Chevy Volt Resale Values Plummet as Lease Returns Hit Market

...A search on the Manheim auction site, a primary indicator of vehicle wholesale value, shows that 81 Chevy Volts, model year 2012, were sold at auction for the week ending August 2nd. The average price was $14,871 for vehicles that are only two or three years old...

Just wondering if any with access have checked to see if the report above of Manheim auction prices is accurate?

For vehicles with ~what average miles/condition?

 

[lorenfb]

"but then some company like GM comes out with the ELR Visit the ELR Forumpriced as it is, and blows that theory out of the water."

Yes, you're right. But you'll have to agree that those who have a "clear vision" have been rewarded in the
market place:

1. Nissan has produced an overall good product, notwithstanding their battery temp problem.
But given where they would have needed to position the Leaf with battery mods, e.g. temp control,
that would have had added an unacceptable cost delta.

2. The Volt has done well with a basic copy of the Prius, i.e. PiPrius with about 2X the battery capacity.
It could have had a better interior, i.e. a 5th seat and more trunk space, but they still sell fairly well.

3. The Tesla MS is positioned well for now and gets more than adequate exposure
without any real corporate marketing. It's questionable whether any other automotive
OEM could have done as well as Tesla with a similar product, i.e. because Tesla has
been positioned as an "automotive OEM disruptor" with a unique product.

4. The Ford Focus is basically a Leaf feature-for-feature and in the same price range.
Based on that, you would think it should sell as well as the Leaf given its price.
Given the Leaf's momentum and early market entry, it's difficult for the Focus to challenge
the Leaf without any key feature, e.g. lower price.

5. One can't deny that the Prius has been a great success story, given what Toyota developed
and where they positioned it.

But then you have the not so well positioned:

1. The BMW i3 clearly can't compete in the lower end with Leaf/Volt/Prius, and starting at $45K
they are in a no-value market per price, i.e. lacking unique features, great looks, super performance,
a 150+ range. They would have been better off if they produced a base model starting at $65K-$75K
to compete with the MS by adding key unique features missing on the MS.

2. The Spark needs to be GM's $20K - $25K mass market BEV to take-on the Honda's lowend
ICEs and thereby have a true mass market BEV with overall cost competitiveness to an ICE
vehicle.

3. Many seen to think that the BMW i8 (hybrid) is a competitor to the MS which is totally ridiculous,
i.e. it's just a two seat hybrid of BMW's Z cars (Z4/Z8) with a fair performance. It'll probably not
even sell as well as the marginally successful Z cars based on its $125K starting price.

4. The Porsche Panamera is a marginal series hybrid with just a 10KwHr battery. It can barely go
a few miles before the ICE starts. It's questionable why they even made it a plug-in.

Bottom line: Yes, many automotive OEMs have not done well when positioning their EV products.

 

[DaveEV]

Just wondering if any with access have checked to see if the report above of Manheim auction prices is accurate?

1. Manheim auction prices are wholesale prices - retail prices will be at least a couple thousand higher. Just look on cars.com for used Volts. Anything under $17k has a huge number of miles on it.
2. Including the tax credit (and possibly state rebate) as part of the deprecation value is simply dishonest. The original value should be reduced by at least $7500 - and possibly up to $10000 accounting for state rebates.
3. The cost of the Volt has gone down by $5000 since it was originally sold which will naturally depress resale value.

The reality is that you can buy a new Volt for $32k through truecar.com - then subtract $7500 tax credit and you can get a new Volt for less than $25k. The fact that you can't find a 3 year old Volt with less less than 40k miles for less than $17k really shows that it actually does just fine from a depreciation point of view.

 

[edatoakrun]

Just wondering if any with access have checked to see if the report above of Manheim auction prices is accurate?

1. Manheim auction prices are wholesale prices - retail prices will be at least a couple thousand higher. Just look on cars.com for used Volts. Anything under $17k has a huge number of miles on it.
2. Including the tax credit (and possibly state rebate) as part of the deprecation value is simply dishonest. The original value should be reduced by at least $7500 - and possibly up to $10000 accounting for state rebates.
3. The cost of the Volt has gone down by $5000 since it was originally sold which will naturally depress resale value.

The reality is that you can buy a new Volt for $32k through truecar.com - then subtract $7500 tax credit and you can get a new Volt for less than $25k. The fact that you can't find a 3 year old less than 40k mile used one for less than $17k really shows that it actually does just fine from a depreciation point of view.

Why did you quote my question, and not post a factual reply?

As to your comments one through three, these factors obviously apply to resale values for the volt, just as they do for the LEAF.

I asked if the MH prices stated were correct and representative, as if they are, it would appear I might not believe depreciation and TCO for a Volt is "just fine" if I owned one.

 

[pkulak]

Why did you quote my question, and not post a factual reply?

Because no one here is under any obligation to do research at your beck and call. I thought he made some very good points and continued this discussion quite nicely, regardless of whom he quoted.