Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[dhanson865]

...That's 135 total miles / 3.7 miles per kWh is 36.49 kWh available.
36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity
19 months, 39,000 miles

Well, it's one data point and Tony's vehicles may all be "outliers".

That's the way it was when the LEAF started tanking the battery... it was an "outlier"... until we learned that it wasn't. It was "normal".

But, if that's what makes folks comfortable, then that's fine by me.

Do you hear insanely loud fan noises while charging? If not then that would be a big difference in cooling vs the Model S.

Either way I willing to believe you are more the early warning than the outlier. I'm just assuming the Model S has less degradation than the Rav 4 for any number of reasons.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Not saying your car is or isn't an outlier but considering there's a few Model S folks that have crazy miles on them, I haven't heard too many that are up in arms about losses. Perhaps the cells are different on the RAV or cycling losses and depth of discharge are more of a factor. ...

My thoughts as well. Perhaps "normal" for a Rav4ev setup, but not for a Model S due to possible different configuration/cells/cooling or something else. Too many unknown differences between the vehicles.

I'm not "up in arms" about the degradation. It's just a fact.

No, the differences aren't "unknown".

Yes, the cells are different in the Rav4 EV. They are 2900ma, and the Model S uses 3100ma.

Also, any car that has a 100-140 mile range is likely to cycle on average far deeper into the cells daily than one with 200-280 mile range.

Finally, the Rav4 EV doesn't use "active" battery cooling / heating. If the car is turn off, it's off.

 

[Leafer77]

Finally lost my 4th bar - 58,078 miles and 3 years 4 days.
Ahr=43.32, SOH = 66%, and Hx = 44.95%

NEW BATTERY YEA!!!

Have they scheduled you for a battery replacement yet? My service appointment was cancelled because they mistakenly scheduled me on a day that their Leaf technician wasn't in. I'm wondering if I'll be as fortunate as you to make the 60,000 mile cut-off.

 

[Zythryn]

No, the differences aren't "unknown".

Yes, the cells are different in the Rav4 EV. They are 2900ma, and the Model S uses 3100ma.

Also, any car that has a 100-140 mile range is likely to cycle on average far deeper into the cells daily than one with 200-280 mile range.

Finally, the Rav4 EV doesn't use "active" battery cooling / heating. If the car is turn off, it's off.

Interesting, I had assumed the battery management system would be the same as it is for the MS?

In our MS at 32,000 miles after 19 months we had a 3% loss of range.

 

[TonyWilliams]

No, the differences aren't "unknown".

Yes, the cells are different in the Rav4 EV. They are 2900ma, and the Model S uses 3100ma.

Also, any car that has a 100-140 mile range is likely to cycle on average far deeper into the cells daily than one with 200-280 mile range.

Finally, the Rav4 EV doesn't use "active" battery cooling / heating. If the car is turn off, it's off.

Interesting, I had assumed the battery management system would be the same as it is for the MS?

In our MS at 32,000 miles after 19 months we had a 3% loss of range.

It may be "the same", it's just programmed differently.

 

[Pipcecil]

Have they scheduled you for a battery replacement yet? My service appointment was cancelled because they mistakenly scheduled me on a day that their Leaf technician wasn't in. I'm wondering if I'll be as fortunate as you to make the 60,000 mile cut-off.

I took it in yesterday. They kept it overnight saying they had to charge to 100% and then do a battery test. Don't know why the 100% charge since the battery testing is usually done at low SoC (maybe because its easier to count the bar loss... :lol: ). Anyways I expect to hear back from them today

 

[qwk]

Not saying your car is or isn't an outlier but considering there's a few Model S folks that have crazy miles on them, I haven't heard too many that are up in arms about losses. Perhaps the cells are different on the RAV or cycling losses and depth of discharge are more of a factor. ...

My thoughts as well. Perhaps "normal" for a Rav4ev setup, but not for a Model S due to possible different configuration/cells/cooling or something else. Too many unknown differences between the vehicles.

I'm not "up in arms" about the degradation. It's just a fact.

No, the differences aren't "unknown".

Yes, the cells are different in the Rav4 EV. They are 2900ma, and the Model S uses 3100ma.

Also, any car that has a 100-140 mile range is likely to cycle on average far deeper into the cells daily than one with 200-280 mile range.

Finally, the Rav4 EV doesn't use "active" battery cooling / heating. If the car is turn off, it's off.

The Model S uses 3.4 mah cells. Who knows what cells the Rav4 EV uses. My guess is the same cells used in the 85kwh Model S "A" packs, since the Rav came out at the same time as the first Model S cars.

 

[GRA]

<snip>
I'm not "up in arms" about the degradation. It's just a fact.

No, the differences aren't "unknown".

Yes, the cells are different in the Rav4 EV. They are 2900ma, and the Model S uses 3100ma.

Also, any car that has a 100-140 mile range is likely to cycle on average far deeper into the cells daily than one with 200-280 mile range.

Finally, the Rav4 EV doesn't use "active" battery cooling / heating. If the car is turn off, it's off.

The Model S uses 3.4 mah cells. Who knows what cells the Rav4 EV uses. My guess is the same cells used in the 85kwh Model S "A" packs, since the Rav came out at the same time as the first Model S cars.

Has it been officially stated or otherwise determined that the 'B' and later packs are 3.4 Ah and not 3.1 Ah cells? My memory is that when the Model S was introduced they were using 3.1 Ah cells.

 

[qwk]

<snip>
I'm not "up in arms" about the degradation. It's just a fact.

No, the differences aren't "unknown".

Yes, the cells are different in the Rav4 EV. They are 2900ma, and the Model S uses 3100ma.

Also, any car that has a 100-140 mile range is likely to cycle on average far deeper into the cells daily than one with 200-280 mile range.

Finally, the Rav4 EV doesn't use "active" battery cooling / heating. If the car is turn off, it's off.

The Model S uses 3.4 mah cells. Who knows what cells the Rav4 EV uses. My guess is the same cells used in the 85kwh Model S "A" packs, since the Rav came out at the same time as the first Model S cars.

Has it been officially stated or otherwise determined that the 'B' and later packs are 3.4 Ah and not 3.1 Ah cells? My memory is that when the Model S was introduced they were using 3.1 Ah cells.

With 7104 cells, it's not possible to get anywhere near 85kwh using the 3.1 Ah variety.

 

[mwalsh]

Jesus. Every thread is being taken over by RAV4EV talk. Enough already!

 

[GRA]

The Model S uses 3.4 mah cells. Who knows what cells the Rav4 EV uses. My guess is the same cells used in the 85kwh Model S "A" packs, since the Rav came out at the same time as the first Model S cars.

Has it been officially stated or otherwise determined that the 'B' and later packs are 3.4 Ah and not 3.1 Ah cells? My memory is that when the Model S was introduced they were using 3.1 Ah cells.

With 7104 cells, it's not possible to get anywhere near 85kwh using the 3.1 Ah variety.

I don't follow the Model S-specific forum that closely (I pay a lot more attention to the "Charging Standards and Infrastructure" forum), so when did Tesla say or someone else determine there were 7,104 cells? My admittedly hazy memory is that Tesla originally said there would be something well over 8,000 in the 85kWh.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I don't follow the Model S-specific forum that closely (I pay a lot more attention to the "Charging Standards and Infrastructure" forum), so when did Tesla say or someone else determine there were 7,104 cells? My admittedly hazy memory is that Tesla originally said there would be something well over 8,000 in the 85kWh.

The battery was opened up at a hybrid shop in Santa Monica recently and they physically counted... 7104 cells.

 

[Stoaty]

The battery was opened up at a hybrid shop in Santa Monica recently and they physically counted... 7104 cells.

How long did it take them to count? Are they sure it isn't 7103 or 7105? It's awfully easy to lose track when you are counting that high.

 

[linkim]

The battery was opened up at a hybrid shop in Santa Monica recently and they physically counted... 7104 cells.

How long did it take them to count? Are they sure it isn't 7103 or 7105? It's awfully easy to lose track when you are counting that high.

Tesla has a lot of experience counting cells. After all, they used 6831 cells in the Roadster. I suspect that the cells are arranged in some type of module so that should help make counting a bit easier for the hybrid shop.

 

[GRA]

I don't follow the Model S-specific forum that closely (I pay a lot more attention to the "Charging Standards and Infrastructure" forum), so when did Tesla say or someone else determine there were 7,104 cells? My admittedly hazy memory is that Tesla originally said there would be something well over 8,000 in the 85kWh.

The battery was opened up at a hybrid shop in Santa Monica recently and they physically counted... 7104 cells.

This was definitely an 85, and not a 60? Edit: Okay, reading the wiki on the Model S now, which says:

"The 85 kW·h battery pack contains 7,104 lithium-ion battery cells in 16 modules[50] wired in series (14 in the flat section and two stacked on the front).[51] Each module contains six groups[52] of 74 cells[53] wired in parallel; the six groups are then wired in series within the module."

So, let's see. Assuming a nominal 3.6V & 3.1Ah/cell:

74 cells in parallel x 3.1 Ah = 229.4 Ah

6 groups in series x 3.6V = 21.6 Volts/module

21.6 Volts x 229.4 Ah = 4,955.04 Wh, or 4.95504 kWh/module

16 modules in series x 21.6 Volts/module = 345.6 Volts/pack

16 modules x 4.95504 kWh = 79.28064 kWh

Anyone see any errors? Close to 85 kWh, especially if the nominal voltages and Ah understate typical capacities. Maybe it's a semantic problem; some of us are talking rated capacity, and others typical capacity? Panasonic's 18650 rechargeable Li-ion data sheets are here,

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/batteries-oem/oem/lithium-ion.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and I assume we're talking about either the NCR18650A or 18650B, with Tesla's modifications.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So, let's see. Assuming a nominal 3.6V & 3.1Ah/cell:

74 cells in parallel x 3.1 Ah = 229.4 Ah

6 groups in series x 3.6V = 21.6 Volts/module

Anyone see any errors? Close to 85 kWh, especially if the nominal voltages and Ah understate typical capacities. Maybe it's a semantic problem; some of us are talking rated capacity, and others typical capacity? Panasonic's 18650 rechargeable Li-ion data sheets are here,

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/batteries-oem/oem/lithium-ion.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and I assume we're talking about either the NCR18650A or 18650B, with Tesla's modifications.

Maybe they use a higher voltage?

 

[opencar]

I lost my first bar. I expected some degradation in capacity, so my driving habits have not been impacted. I did report this issue to the Nissan dealer and was told this is expected.

Not sure how to add this to the spreadsheet:

Car Details:

Silver Nissan Leaf 2011
Date car purchased: 5/31/2011
Date bar disappeared: 8/24/2012
Mile's when bar disappeared: 21,085

Environment:

- San Diego Coastal and Inland climate (60's - 90's).

Car Charging info:

- 1 month of 100% charging via L2, thereafter 80% L2.
- (5/31 - 2/1) Nightly charge, except weekends where it typically charged just once for the entire weekend.
- (2/2 - Present) Charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.
- Garaged at home and uncovered at work.

MISC Info:

- Turtled once, but made it to an outlet.
- Mostly highway driving 55mph - 65mph.
- 4.5 KWH
- Manufactured Date: 4/11

Lost my second bar: 7/8/2013.
Mileage: 36,360
Still performing a L2 charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.

Lost my third bar: 6/13/2014.
Mileage: 52,109
Performing a L2 charge twice a day to %100. Once in at 1:10am and at work.

I didn't expect to lose this third bar until 60,000+, so I'm convinced it has more to do with heat causing the battery to degrade. The more often you charge to %100 the hotter the battery. Luckily, my commute is only 60 miles total, but I don't appreciate the stress of wheter I'm going to make it or choosing between running the A/C.

I have my battery test coming up this weekend. I'll try to remember to post the results.

yea, your annual miles are higher than the other SD LEAFers that I've seen on the board. I'm guessing you don't have any monitoring tool to tell us the Ahr readings. Looks like I'm 1 year/1 bar behind your degradation.

 

[dhanson865]

anybody recognize leaf 1001? Is it in the wiki?

2 bar loser with 76,171 miles on it in California

AT-163EC394

03/05/2011 NICB Vehicle manufactured
and shipped to original dealer
04/18/2011 4 Northbay Nissan
04/19/2011 5 California Motor Vehicle Dept. Santa Clara, CA
Odometer reading reported Titled or registered as corporate vehicle
01/10/2012 California Motor Vehicle Dept. Burlingame, CA
Title issued or updated Correction to record Registration updated when owner moved the vehicle to a new location
05/19/2014 76,171 Dealer Inventory (likely lost that 2nd bar before May 2014 but for lack of a better date)

check out the evse

at $11,998 it's the cheapest used Leaf I've seen

Of course it's also the highest mileage used Leaf I've seen, no battery capacity warranty on this one.

 

[dhanson865]

how about leaf 3463, in the wiki?

(AT-15AF9576)

would you call that 3 or 4 bars lost? I'm going to say 3.

04/27/2011 NICB Vehicle manufactured
05/24/2011 5 Nissan Of Valencia
07/12/2011 California Motor Vehicle Dept. Woodland Hills, CA Title issued or updated
First owner reported Titled or registered as personal lease vehicle
01/13/2014 31,538 Auto Auction Pacific Region

$12,998

 

[DaveInAvl]

would you call that 3 or 4 bars lost? I'm going to say 3.

I ran a deblurring program on that part of the pic and it helped a little - I'd also say 3: