Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[TomT]

This seems odd to me... The reports from Roadster and S owners would seem to indicate that they are doing/have done much better than that... I wonder why the RAV4EV is behaving otherwise?

36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity

 

[TomT]

Assuming it was even possible to acquire and install them (not too likely), the bigger fly in the ointment would be updating the BMS for the new battery parameters...

If you want a new and better batteries for your Leaf, you don't need to wait for the Nissan sell. The Renault Fluenze before had cells AESC from Nissan and change by LG that are better from heat. Could you do the same because the cell haven the same size.

 

[RegGuheert]

This seems odd to me... The reports from Roadster and S owners would seem to indicate that they are doing/have done much better than that... I wonder why the RAV4EV is behaving otherwise?

Did they put a trailer hitch on the back and tow their other EV on the trailer?

Seriously, Tony seems to be quite hard on his EVs...and we appreciate what we learn from the abuse that he gives them! Still, I am impressed by the range he continues to enjoy with his RAV4EV.

 

[GRA]

This seems odd to me... The reports from Roadster and S owners would seem to indicate that they are doing/have done much better than that... I wonder why the RAV4EV is behaving otherwise?

Did they put a trailer hitch on the back and tow their other EV on the trailer?

Seriously, Tony seems to be quite hard on his EVs...and we appreciate what we learn from the abuse that he gives them! Still, I am impressed by the range he continues to enjoy with his RAV4EV.

I suspect Tony routinely uses a larger % of his capacity than the typical Tesla owner does.

 

[sparky]

...That's 135 total miles / 3.7 miles per kWh is 36.49 kWh available.
36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity
19 months, 39,000 miles

Is this an indication that active cooling is overrated for moderately warm climates?

edit: extrapolating to Tesla MS 80, range loss would be 30-40 miles, ouch.

Well, it's one data point and Tony's vehicles may all be "outliers".
After 14 mos, my 2011 LEAF still reported Gids in the mid-270's so, less than 3% loss. My Model S range loss is similar after 14 mos and ~13k miles; about 2%.
Time will tell.
Still have 12 bars on the LEAF but capacity loss seems to be accelerating.

 

[RegGuheert]

I suspect Tony routinely uses a larger % of his capacity than the typical Tesla owner does.

Me, too! But that's why the Tesla owners do not have the awesome range charts that the LEAF and RAV4EV owners enjoy! (Nor do they need them...)

 

[Leafer77]

I lost my first bar. I expected some degradation in capacity, so my driving habits have not been impacted. I did report this issue to the Nissan dealer and was told this is expected.

Not sure how to add this to the spreadsheet:

Car Details:

Silver Nissan Leaf 2011
Date car purchased: 5/31/2011
Date bar disappeared: 8/24/2012
Mile's when bar disappeared: 21,085

Environment:

- San Diego Coastal and Inland climate (60's - 90's).

Car Charging info:

- 1 month of 100% charging via L2, thereafter 80% L2.
- (5/31 - 2/1) Nightly charge, except weekends where it typically charged just once for the entire weekend.
- (2/2 - Present) Charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.
- Garaged at home and uncovered at work.

MISC Info:

- Turtled once, but made it to an outlet.
- Mostly highway driving 55mph - 65mph.
- 4.5 KWH
- Manufactured Date: 4/11

Lost my second bar: 7/8/2013.
Mileage: 36,360
Still performing a L2 charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.

Lost my third bar: 6/13/2014.
Mileage: 52,109
Performing a L2 charge twice a day to %100. Once in at 1:10am and at work.

I didn't expect to lose this third bar until 60,000+, so I'm convinced it has more to do with heat causing the battery to degrade. The more often you charge to %100 the hotter the battery. Luckily, my commute is only 60 miles total, but I don't appreciate the stress of wheter I'm going to make it or choosing between running the A/C.

I have my battery test coming up this weekend. I'll try to remember to post the results.

 

[pchilds]

Lost #12 12/3/13, 17550 miles, 28 months owned. AHr=55.45, SOH=84%
Lost #11 6/15/14, 21493 miles, 34 months owned. AHr=50.70, SOH=77%

 

[widgetboy]

I just lost my first capacity bar at 30,315 miles. Exactly 2.5 years since delivery. I'm in Atlanta, GA.
From the looks of things, I'd say my battery pack is doing pretty well in comparison.

I have a ~60 mile round-trip commute. Right now I can comfortably make it from home and back on a single charge.
I think by Winter, I will need to figure a way to plug in a bit at work. Currently my employer offers no accommodation to charge.

 

[leafwing]

Lost 3rd capacity bar @ 31,025 miles on 6/17/2014.
The loss is very consistent regardless of how many miles are driven (one bar per year); since I'm driving less this year.

 

[cracovian]

229 gids on the 2.5 year old LEAF in GA (29K miles) and still 12 bars (shouldn't I be on my third bar by now?...) The most shocking fact is that I still had 260 gids six months ago (92.5%) and now they just disappear daily. I thought degradation was supposed to taper off but it seems like it's rapidly accelerating instead. Wow.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

^^^
The general theme here on MNL has been higher capacity loss rates when temperatures begin to increase in the late spring, and lower rates as temperatures cool in the fall. Our Ahr decreases (via LeafDD) were quite low until mid-May, but now decrease daily. Smaller rates are seen in Seattle, much higher in Phoenix, but both were reported low this past winter.

 

[DaveEV]

229 gids on the 2.5 year old LEAF in GA (29K miles) and still 12 bars (shouldn't I be on my third bar by now?...) The most shocking fact is that I still had 260 gids six months ago (92.5%) and now they just disappear daily. I thought degradation was supposed to taper off but it seems like it's rapidly accelerating instead. Wow.

229 GIDs on a 2.5 year old GA LEAF sounds about right. Does your '12 LEAF have the P3227 update? It makes the GID readings a lot more consistent.

 

[RegGuheert]

229 gids on the 2.5 year old LEAF in GA (29K miles) and still 12 bars (shouldn't I be on my third bar by now?...)

It seems you should have lost a bar by now, but not more than one. The twelfth capacity bar counts for 15% of capacity while each of the other bars only count for 6.25%. I calculate you as being at 81.5% GIDs, so I would expect you to see only 11 capacity bars remaining. Perhaps you will lose it soon.

The most shocking fact is that I still had 260 gids six months ago (92.5%) and now they just disappear daily. I thought degradation was supposed to taper off but it seems like it's rapidly accelerating instead. Wow.

Nissan said that and many here have repeated it, but that generally only applies to cycling losses, not calendar losses or total losses. Calendar losses tend to either be linear or extralinear as the battery ages according to what is seen in much of the literature. The couple of cases we have useful data from here indicate overall (cycling plus calendar) losses being roughly linear or very slightly extralinear.

Your case seems a bit extreme. After two full years, including two full GA summers, you only lost 7.5% of your GIDS. Then within the last six months, you lost 11% more. And summer has not yet begun! While I've been expecting extralinear degradation in some hotter climates, this seems a bit extreme to me. Perhaps you have a cell that is failing? Do you have LEAFspy so that you can see all of the cells and how they hold up when the pack gets discharged?

 

[Pipcecil]

Finally lost my 4th bar - 58,078 miles and 3 years 4 days.
Ahr=43.32, SOH = 66%, and Hx = 44.95%

NEW BATTERY YEA!!!

 

[myleaf]

Finally lost my 4th bar - 58,078 miles and 3 years 4 days.
Ahr=43.32, SOH = 66%, and Hx = 44.95%

NEW BATTERY YEA!!!

Welcome to the club.

 

[Valdemar]

Good timing!

 

[TonyWilliams]

...That's 135 total miles / 3.7 miles per kWh is 36.49 kWh available.
36.49 / 41.8kWh when new is 87.28% capacity
19 months, 39,000 miles

Is this an indication that active cooling is overrated for moderately warm climates?

edit: extrapolating to Tesla MS 80, range loss would be 30-40 miles, ouch.

Well, it's one data point and Tony's vehicles may all be "outliers".

That's the way it was when the LEAF started tanking the battery... it was an "outlier"... until we learned that it wasn't. It was "normal".

But, if that's what makes folks comfortable, then that's fine by me.

 

[JeremyW]

That's the way it was when the LEAF started tanking the battery... it was an "outlier"... until we learned that it wasn't. It was "normal".

Not saying your car is or isn't an outlier but considering there's a few Model S folks that have crazy miles on them, I haven't heard too many that are up in arms about losses. Perhaps the cells are different on the RAV or cycling losses and depth of discharge are more of a factor. Although without knowing real time pack voltage and impedance (Hx or calculated on the LeafDD and CANary) like we have on the leaf, have you noticed more loss in "spirited" driving than say 60 mph steady state (than what would be accounted for in aero losses)? It may be more than just raw Ah lost that's at play here.

 

[palmermd]

Not saying your car is or isn't an outlier but considering there's a few Model S folks that have crazy miles on them, I haven't heard too many that are up in arms about losses. Perhaps the cells are different on the RAV or cycling losses and depth of discharge are more of a factor. ...

My thoughts as well. Perhaps "normal" for a Rav4ev setup, but not for a Model S due to possible different configuration/cells/cooling or something else. Too many unknown differences between the vehicles.