Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[abasile]

1st bar at 33k miles? That is pretty great! I believe we are in the same city and I lost my 1st bar at ~19k miles.

Sad to report that I lost my second bar yesterday at 29,500 miles (~2 years, 5 months).

Sorry to hear of these lost bars. I hate to say it, but I certainly don't think of a lost bar at 33K miles as "pretty great". To me, that seems like unacceptably rapid capacity loss. As such, I have not been recommending the purchase (as opposed to lease) of a LEAF to anyone living in a warm climate, that is, most of Southern California. The Tesla S is the only BEV that I can wholeheartedly recommend to someone who desires to own and not lease their vehicles in SoCal. (Other EVs including the RAV4 EV and Ford Focus EV have temperature management and should fare better than the LEAF, but only Nissan, Tesla, and maybe BMW and GM seem to have any real commitment to this market.)

As for my own LEAF retaining more battery capacity than many other LEAFs, I am convinced that it is not only due to our relatively cool mountain climate, but also the fact that we have no garage and our LEAF is always parked outside at night. Outdoor, nighttime cooling really helps to keep the average pack temperature down. Contrast that with parking in a garage that might not ever go much below 70°F at night, in which case the pack temperature is never going to drop much below six temperature bars.

 

[TomT]

+1

I hate to say it, but I certainly don't think of a lost bar at 33K miles as "pretty great". To me, that seems like unacceptably rapid capacity loss. As such, I have not been recommending the purchase (as opposed to lease) of a LEAF to anyone living in a warm climate, that is, most of Southern California. The Tesla S is the only BEV that I can wholeheartedly recommend to someone who desires to own and not lease their vehicles in SoCal.

 

[smkettner]

+1 on garage temps. IMO garage temps can easily add 10F to the average battery operating temperature.

 

[ecoobsessive]

Yes, I believe that high garage temps. have been my car's problem. And I'm so mad because when we were on the waiting list back in 2010 it seemed that the "ideal" LEAF owner was one with a garage where they could put their L2 EVSE.

That's why the price for the replacement batteries BETTER BE LOW. I even think Nissan should not make a profit on the replacement batteries - as a way of taking care of those of us warm weather people who purchased without sufficient warning from Nissan about the effects of heat on the battery.

Since last year I've been parking on the driveway as much as possible, only problem is the cord for my L2 doesn't reach to the driveway, and I'm not leaving the garage door open for all the night critters.

If I stick with this car, I will need a new battery in about 2 years. When I get the new battery, I'll park it all the time on the driveway and trickle charge it - only using the L2 in the garage when I really need it.

If the battery price is high - sorry Nissan, but I'll probably switch and get a Volt.

 

[JPWhite]

+1 on garage temps. IMO garage temps can easily add 10F to the average battery operating temperature.

My protocol on keeping the battery temps low a as possible in the summer is to keep garage doors open at night when outside temp drops below garage temp. Keep garage doors closed when outside temp goes above garage temp.

Right now it's 88 outside but my LEAF enjoys 79 inside. I think keeping garage doors open/closed at appropriate times of day is better than leaving the car outside all the time.

With garage doors open at night the temp difference between outside and inside is just 2 degrees F.

In winter I keep the garage doors closed as much as possible.

 

[dhanson865]

I can't help but mention my heat pump water heater because my garage is 20F cooler than outside even in the hottest part of the hottest day and often it is within a degree or two of the indoor temperature of my house.

If you use an electric water heater in your garage you should switch to a heat pump water heater. If you don't use an electric water heater in your garage add a window or wall mounted AC and set the thermostat at 5F above what you set your house thermostat for. it doesn't take much, the heat pump on top of my water heater is about the size of a loaf of bread.

Oh and if your garage has any south or west facing windows add solar screens on the windows to block 80-90% of the incoming solar gain if you still want the incoming light and ability to look out. If you want to cheap out just block the windows with any opaque and/or reflective surface you want.

I know my location doesn't see the heat some of you see but I'm far enough south that I run the AC about 8 months of the year so I manage heat from the kitchen to the garage in my house.

for those not familiar with solar screen I'm talking something like http://www.homedepot.com/p/Phifer-36-in-x-25-ft-Charcoal-Super-Solar-Screen-3021116-Dot-Com-SOM-3018851-Store/100552677#.UaKjB5zgXTo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and for those not familiar with a heat pump water heater I'm talking something like http://www.lowes.com/pd_386797-83-GEH50DEEDSR_0__?productId=3664968&cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-Plumbing-_-WaterHeaters-_-3664968&CAWELAID=1375876994&kpid=3664968&%22cagpspn=pla%22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[LEAFfan]

I can't help but mention my heat pump water heater because my garage is 20F cooler than outside even in the hottest part of the hottest day and often it is within a degree or two of the indoor temperature of my house.

If you use an electric water heater in your garage you should switch to a heat pump water heater. If you don't use an electric water heater in your garage add a window or wall mounted AC and set the thermostat at 5F above what you set your house thermostat for. it doesn't take much, the heat pump on top of my water heater is about the size of a loaf of bread.

Oh and if your garage has any south or west facing windows add solar screens on the windows to block 80-90% of the incoming solar gain if you still want the incoming light and ability to look out. If you want to cheap out just block the windows with any opaque and/or reflective surface you want.

I know my location doesn't see the heat some of you see but I'm far enough south that I run the AC about 8 months of the year so I manage heat from the kitchen to the garage in my house.

I almost bought one last year when I thought our water heater was going bad, but I drained it and it is still working fine. Has the price dropped any from last year? Can you please post a link to the one you have? TIA

 

[JPWhite]

I can't help but mention my heat pump water heater because my garage is 20F cooler than outside even in the hottest part of the hottest day and often it is within a degree or two of the indoor temperature of my house.

I had no idea they cooled the garage, for some reason I imagined they'd dot he opposite. Verts to the outside right?

Well I think I know what my next home improvement will be. Saves on electric anywho.

 

[dhanson865]

I can't help but mention my heat pump water heater because my garage is 20F cooler than outside even in the hottest part of the hottest day and often it is within a degree or two of the indoor temperature of my house.

I had no idea they cooled the garage, for some reason I imagined they'd dot he opposite. Vents to the outside right?

Well I think I know what my next home improvement will be. Saves on electric anyhow.

No it doesn't vent to the outside. It is a free standing unit with no parts outside the room, air just blows around the unit just like if you put a dehumidifier on the floor in the middle of a room.

1. Heat is removed from the air in my garage and placed inside the tank in the garage.

2a. The tank is heavily insulated so that radiation of heat out of the tank is always less than the heat pump moved into the tank in the first place leaving the room net cooled even after waste heat is considered.

2b. Heat is removed from the tank to service house needs for hot water.

Now if I never use the hot water then 2b is no longer true and no amount of insulation stops the radiation of heat and the heat pumps activity (electrical consumption) adds to the heat of the space but in such a case you turn the hot water heater down or off (vacation mode or off completely).

3. The only thing that drains to the outside is waste water from the heat pump (condensation on the coils) which drains out a miniscule pipe to the back yard in my case. This would be the same pipe you'd use for an overflow valve on an electric water heater so if you have a floor drain or whatever you'll route the unneeded condensation there.

End result is it cools and dehumidifies the room it is in and heats the water in the tank at the same time and uses less electricity in the process than just heating the water alone would cost with resistive heating.

It's a win/win down south or out west where you never or rarely need heat in your house, it's mostly a win/win for the majority of the US.

I suppose there is some place far enough north that it no longer makes sense to switch but I'm not sure where the dividing line is.

 

[smkettner]

Heat pump moves heat from the garage to the water. Effect is to cool the garage, heat the water.
Interesting. Could very slightly reduce general cooling load.

 

[dhanson865]

I almost bought one last year when I thought our water heater was going bad, but I drained it and it is still working fine. Has the price dropped any from last year? Can you please post a link to the one you have? TIA

I have the GE version but several companies make them in sizes from 40 gallons to 100 gallons now (back when I got mine you could only get the 50 gallon version).

I would have been happy with a 40 gallon version but the 50 gallon is plenty enough to handle a dishwasher, clothes washer, and a couple of people that love to take long hot showers. I can't imagine how many people you'd need in the family to want the larger units since it has the heat pump plus an upper and lower resistant unit it can be high recovery if you allow it to work in "hybrid" mode instead of forcing heat pump only.

As to pricing it seems to be pretty stable on these units, when they first came out the 50 gallon unit was $1500, but now it is $1000. There are tax rebates to getting one in some locations so check with your state or electric company to see if they apply to you.

I got mine about 3 years ago when it was newer tech. I've had parts replace free under warranty once but it was heat pump related so the unit kept working in regular electric mode. Haven't ever dealt without hot water and haven't ever had the unit disconnected from the water lines since I got it.

 

[dhanson865]

Heat pump moves heat from the garage to the water. Effect is to cool the garage, heat the water.
Interesting. Could very slightly reduce general cooling load.

Does so for me more than a little because my bedrooms are above the garage in my house.

Split foyer design. Upstairs and downstairs are both level and the same size but 40% of the downstairs is a two car garage and about 20-40% of the down stairs are covered by dirt on the front side of the house.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I can't help but mention my heat pump water heater because my garage is 20F cooler than outside even in the hottest part of the hottest day and often it is within a degree or two of the indoor temperature of my house.

I had no idea they cooled the garage, for some reason I imagined they'd dot he opposite. Vents to the outside right?

Well I think I know what my next home improvement will be. Saves on electric anyhow.

No it doesn't vent to the outside. It is a free standing unit with no parts outside the room, air just blows around the unit just like if you put a dehumidifier on the floor in the middle of a room.

1. Heat is removed from the air in my garage and placed inside the tank in the garage.

2a. The tank is heavily insulated so that radiation of heat out of the tank is always less than the heat pump moved into the tank in the first place leaving the room net cooled even after waste heat is considered.

2b. Heat is removed from the tank to service house needs for hot water.

Now if I never use the hot water then 2b is no longer true and no amount of insulation stops the radiation of heat and the heat pumps activity (electrical consumption) adds to the heat of the space but in such a case you turn the hot water heater down or off (vacation mode or off completely).

3. The only thing that drains to the outside is waste water from the heat pump (condensation on the coils) which drains out a miniscule pipe to the back yard in my case. This would be the same pipe you'd use for an overflow valve on an electric water heater so if you have a floor drain or whatever you'll route the unneeded condensation there.

End result is it cools and dehumidifies the room it is in and heats the water in the tank at the same time and uses less electricity in the process than just heating the water alone would cost with resistive heating.

It's a win/win down south or out west where you never or rarely need heat in your house, it's mostly a win/win for the majority of the US.

I suppose there is some place far enough north that it no longer makes sense to switch but I'm not sure where the dividing line is.

WOW!! I now find it hard to believe that every house in Phoenix does not have one of these

 

[QueenBee]

WOW!! I now find it hard to believe that every house in Phoenix does not have one of these

No idea what percent of houses in Pheonix have natural gas but that is why every house in Pheonix doesn't have one. Even here with our cheap electricity A high efficiency natural gas water heater is at least 25% cheaper to operate. Anyone heating water with electricity REALY needs to upgrade though as they make so much sense, even in northern climates.

I just installed one as with the utility rebates it only cost $275. It replaced the 54% efficient natural gas heater my house came with and I figure it'll save me 25% on wster heating costs. I've got it in heat pump only mode and I hate to admit that I'm not sure it will be able to provide enough hot water before I give up I'm going to install some monitoring to better understand consumption and energy usage. I really like the idea of not burning gas but my solar PV system will not likely cover the additional load from the water heater and if it can't provide enough hot water :/. I figure I could sell it and then get a 94% efficient natural gas tankless but it's going to take a lot of work to upgrade plumbing and venting, and I'll be burnin gas

Sorry for the off topicness.

 

[downeykp]

I am in YELM, WA. My heat pump works fine for the three of us on heat pump only. If we ever need more we just turn it to hybrid mode or high demand mode.
A heat pump in a garage would really work well for sucking warm air molecules out of a garage and strong them in a water heater. thus cooling garage.

No idea what percent of houses in Pheonix have natural gas but that is why every house in Pheonix doesn't have one. Even here with our cheap electricity A high efficiency natural gas water heater is at least 25% cheaper to operate. Anyone heating water with electricity REALY needs to upgrade though as they make so much sense, even in northern climates.

I just installed one as with the utility rebates it only cost $275. It replaced the 54% efficient natural gas heater my house came with and I figure it'll save me 25% on wster heating costs. I've got it in heat pump only mode and I hate to admit that I'm not sure it will be able to provide enough hot water before I give up I'm going to install some monitoring to better understand consumption and energy usage. I really like the idea of not burning gas but my solar PV system will not likely cover the additional load from the water heater and if it can't provide enough hot water :/. I figure I could sell it and then get a 94% efficient natural gas tankless but it's going to take a lot of work to upgrade plumbing and venting, and I'll be burnin gas

Sorry for the off topicness.[/quote]

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

WOW!! I now find it hard to believe that every house in Phoenix does not have one of these

No idea what percent of houses in Pheonix have natural gas but that is why every house in Pheonix doesn't have one. Even here with our cheap electricity A high efficiency natural gas water heater is at least 25% cheaper to operate. Anyone heating water with electricity REALY needs to upgrade though as they make so much sense, even in northern climates.

I just installed one as with the utility rebates it only cost $275. It replaced the 54% efficient natural gas heater my house came with and I figure it'll save me 25% on wster heating costs. I've got it in heat pump only mode and I hate to admit that I'm not sure it will be able to provide enough hot water before I give up I'm going to install some monitoring to better understand consumption and energy usage. I really like the idea of not burning gas but my solar PV system will not likely cover the additional load from the water heater and if it can't provide enough hot water :/. I figure I could sell it and then get a 94% efficient natural gas tankless but it's going to take a lot of work to upgrade plumbing and venting, and I'll be burnin gas

Sorry for the off topicness.

I think the point is not heating the water economically so much as getting rid of unwanted heat in a beneficial way. not familiar with this but a heat exchanger on ANY kind of hot water heater is still beneficial especially when an overheated garage is at issue.

and I have been to TN twice briefly and it was plenty hot enough!

 

[smkettner]

I want a heat pump water heater with natural gas back up..... who makes that?

Then how to get fridge to dump heat outside in summer..... Maybe the fridge and water heater should be a single unit

 

[QueenBee]

I think the point is not heating the water economically so much as getting rid of unwanted heat in a beneficial way. not familiar with this

The point of heat pump waters heaters is definitely to more than double the efficiency of heating water when you are already using electricity to heat water. Cooling a hot garage is just a bonus. I'd guess that if you had natural gas it would be cheaper to have an efficient natural gas water heater and then run an A/C unit in the garage as needed.

I want a heat pump water heater with natural gas back up..... who makes that?

Heat pump water heater + tankless natural gas seems like a pretty good combination but pricy.

 

[TomT]

I love our tankless water heater and would never consider any other kind! In the summer months without heating, our monthly gas bill is around 10 bucks including cooking!

Heat pump water heater + tankless natural gas seems like a pretty good combination but pricy.

 

[91040]

Solar hot water panels with storage tank and tankless natural gas here.

I love our tankless water heater and would never consider any other kind! In the summer months without heating, our monthly gas bill is around 10 bucks including cooking!

Heat pump water heater + tankless natural gas seems like a pretty good combination but pricy.