Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[RegGuheert]

wow... so you think that the records showing Broder running the heat all night would not have been significant enough for Musk to mention? or simply missed?

No. As you quoted, Alric suggested that as a possibility.

As I said recently in this thread, my current theory is that the battery heater came on overnight and used up most of the charge that was there when Beoder went to bed. Turning that thing on at 20F is fine for most of CA, but it's not a good idea in most of the Northeast.

 

[GRA]

It should also be pointed out that the graph is of temperature versus mileage, not temperature versus time. The latter would show whether the heat was "left on all night" at 75. deg., something that I would think would be impossible in an electric car, especially one like a Tesla where the car turns on or off on entrance/exit; it certainly should be.

OTOH, I can see battery heating from a TMS all night in the sub 20 deg. F. temps. It seems pretty clear now that the TMS was active all night in 10 deg. F. temps, and that's what caused the huge range drop. Definitely something Tesla should have warned Broder (or any journalist or person test-driving the car overnight, or renting for that matter; there's a couple Model S's available in a private car-sharing service in S.F. now) when the temps are likely to be low enough for that to happen. The same thing seems to have happened in the Consumer Reports test, at an overnight temp somewhere below freezing (IIRR the tester reported around 30 deg. F). Still looks like an epic fail for Tesla's PR department to me.

 

[smkettner]

Definitely something Tesla should have warned Broder (or any journalist or person test-driving the car overnight, or renting for that matter; there's a couple Model S's available in a private car-sharing service in S.F. now) when the temps are likely to be low enough for that to happen.

I believe Broder was told to FULLY charge at each supercharger site. The car said he could not make it back to the supercharger so Broder found some L2. Then Broder failed to remain until he had sufficient range. All to be avoided if Broder had fully charged the day before.

 

[RegGuheert]

I believe Broder was told to FULLY charge at each supercharger site.

Please provide the source upon which you are basing this belief.

 

[GRA]

Definitely something Tesla should have warned Broder (or any journalist or person test-driving the car overnight, or renting for that matter; there's a couple Model S's available in a private car-sharing service in S.F. now) when the temps are likely to be low enough for that to happen.

I believe Broder was told to FULLY charge at each supercharger site. The car said he could not make it back to the supercharger so Broder found some L2. Then Broder failed to remain until he had sufficient range. All to be avoided if Broder had fully charged the day before.

We've gone around this point numerous times, but why not once more? The car told him it had plenty of range (including a reserve) when he unplugged from the charger in Milford, and when he parked it. When he came out the next morning, it didn't. If that huge indicated range drop was to be expected, then he should have been told by Tesla. He wasn't.

Nor was Consumer Reports, after this all happened, and they experienced the exact same extreme range drop overnight. In their case it was from 140 to 65 miles 'rated' range, and to only _15_ miles 'predicted' range. Again, if this is normal and to be expected, testers should be told, because it's completely alien to ICE behavior.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

you cannot leave the heat on in the S. as soon as the car senses you leave the seat and the fob proximity sensor senses you are away from the vehicle, the car goes to sleep, shutting everything down. Eventually, in extreme cold, the battery heater will turn on until the car gets below a charge level well above what Broder was at when he parked the car. It's very unlikely that the car Broder was testing was heating the battery if it was not plugged in with such a low battery. the car is designed to protect the battery from draining it's self dead and "bricking". Heating that much mass all night long would have taken quite a bit of energy. Tesla's number one recommendation, throughout my exposure leading up to taking delivery was to keep the car plugged in at night. Not charging all the way to full while at the same time leaving the car unplugged on the coldest night of the year is the primary problem. In any case, it's clear that when operated as recommended in the manual the car can handle such trips just fine even in extreme cold. the car has been designed for and tested extensively in extreme cold and heat, Tesla's CA headquarter location has nothing to do with it.

I pay almost no attention to the GOM in the S, it's just as unreliable as the other car's I've owned in telling the future (elevation gain, ambient temps/air density, wind direction, precipitation etc). I manage fuel in the S much the same way I manage it in a gas car, I look at the "gas gauge" and when it's starting to get low, I charge the car up. the advantage with an electric car is of course that I get to plug in conveniently at home each night and it having an 85kW battery, I almost never need to plug it in in the wild. I really don't give it a whole lot of thought on a day to day basis.

Broder's "hypothetical" scenario just does not reflect the reality of this car's capabilities nor is it typical of a scenario an actual owner would put themselves in. the most telling thing to me is that Broder, after all the flack he has gotten, and most of all, after learning how it should be done, has made no effort to correct his record. perhaps there was a misunderstanding with all the back and forth calls he made into customer service and if so, a reporter attempting to wield such a thoroughly damming and emblematic conclusion not just on Tesla but on EV's across the board, really does, IMHO, have a moral obligation to admit that the cause of the outcome of his test was not exemplary of the car's abilities. He needs to either state this or to do the whole test over again following the instructions that every owner gets during delivery and that the owner's manual states prominently, to plug the car in at night.

It should also be pointed out that the graph is of temperature versus mileage, not temperature versus time. The latter would show whether the heat was "left on all night" at 75. deg., something that I would think would be impossible in an electric car, especially one like a Tesla where the car turns on or off on entrance/exit; it certainly should be.

OTOH, I can see battery heating from a TMS all night in the sub 20 deg. F. temps. It seems pretty clear now that the TMS was active all night in 10 deg. F. temps, and that's what caused the huge range drop. Definitely something Tesla should have warned Broder (or any journalist or person test-driving the car, or renting for that matter; there's a couple Model S's available in a private car-sharing service in S.F. now) when the temps are likely to be low enough for that to happen. Still looks like an epic fail for Tesla's PR department to me.

 

[surfingslovak]

OTOH, I can see battery heating from a TMS all night in the sub 20 deg. F. temps. It seems pretty clear now that the TMS was active all night in 10 deg. F. temps, and that's what caused the huge range drop.

Sorry, but I have to disagree there. I commented on a related thread on TMC two months before Brodergate. This was based on an inquiry from a friend, who purchased a Model S around that time. Even if you assumed fairly aggressive conditioning overnight, it's unlikely that more than about 6 kWh were consumed for TMS operation.

If you combine that loss with an adjustment in the guessometer range estimate, which factors in frigid morning temps, and some vampire load due to a software bug in the sleep mode, which was reported by my friend, then we could be getting closer. While the TMS was not blameless here, it was not the sole, and perhaps not even the main culprit.

That said, I wish that Tesla was a bit more transparent with their data, with the parameters of TMS operation, and with the SOC of the vehicle (instead of just showing the GOM). I really appreciate what they have done to affect change in the industry, but I think they would be well advised to break the mold when it comes to communications as well, instead of behaving like any other large automaker.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

... Again, if this is normal and to be expected, testers should be told, because it's completely alien to ICE behavior.

relying on a range indicator is completely alien to operating a gas car too. I don't know anyone who relies on their range indicator, expecting it to be accurate and only adds just enough gas to get them to the next gas station based on those figures. range indicators in gas cars go up and down wildly. try adding just a few gallons of gas to an empty tank at the top of a mountain pass then drive it down hill to a hotel for the night and then the next day, based on the range indicator drive past all the gas stations on the way back up and over the pass in an attempt to make it to the one that the prediction said you could make it to. In EV terms, this is what Broder did by parking the car without plugging it in on the coldest night of the winter. No one will ever make a range indicator that will accurately calculate this kind of scenario. the notion that someone would take a 300 mile battery pack and try and drive it on the margins at the bottom of it's charge and subject it to temperatures well known to reduce range and not plug it in is just crazy! this guy knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[smkettner]

I believe Broder was told to FULLY charge at each supercharger site.

Please provide the source upon which you are basing this belief.

The car told him at the first two stops that he barely made it. Even with "extra" range he barely made it, had to drive slow, and the heater was shutting off. Yet Broder charged less and less each time. Who does that?

 

[Smidge204]

It should also be pointed out that the graph is of temperature versus mileage, not temperature versus time. The latter would show whether the heat was "left on all night" at 75. deg., something that I would think would be impossible in an electric car, especially one like a Tesla where the car turns on or off on entrance/exit; it certainly should be.

The Y axis also does say "Cabin Temperature Setpoint" - clearly he cranked the heat up at the 400-mile mark. Do we know how long he was parked that night? Maybe he slept in the car with the heat on! :lol:

The estimated range graph shows a drop from 80-ish miles to 20-ish miles. Going with the EPA's 3.33 mi/kWh, he drained ~18kWh... let's be serious here, that can't possibly be all from the battery management system.
=Smidge=

 

[mkjayakumar]

The car told him at the first two stops that he barely made it. Even with "extra" range he barely made it, had to drive slow, and the heater was shutting off. Yet Broder charged less and less each time. Who does that?

Good point. One would think experience would make someone wiser, except of course you are a fool or someone with an agenda.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Definitely something Tesla should have warned Broder (or any journalist or person test-driving the car overnight, or renting for that matter; there's a couple Model S's available in a private car-sharing service in S.F. now) when the temps are likely to be low enough for that to happen.

I believe Broder was told to FULLY charge at each supercharger site. The car said he could not make it back to the supercharger so Broder found some L2. Then Broder failed to remain until he had sufficient range. All to be avoided if Broder had fully charged the day before.

We've gone around this point numerous times, but why not once more? The car told him it had plenty of range (including a reserve) when he unplugged from the charger in Milford, and when he parked it. When he came out the next morning, it didn't. If that huge indicated range drop was to be expected, then he should have been told by Tesla. He wasn't.

Nor was Consumer Reports, after this all happened, and they experienced the exact same extreme range drop overnight. In their case it was from 140 to 65 miles 'rated' range, and to only _15_ miles 'predicted' range. Again, if this is normal and to be expected, testers should be told, because it's completely alien to ICE behavior.

+1

 

[KevinSharpe]

I bet he left the heat on overnight or set it to warm up too early before departure. See the purple arrows.

I've been thinking about this and I will say that if either of these two things happened, then it is a bug in the firmware. It should be impossible to leave the heater on overnight since there is no ON/OFF switch in the Model S. Same with preheating too long. There should be a limit of no more than 30 minutes with the vehicle unplugged.

wow... so you think that the records showing Broder running the heat all night would not have been significant enough for Musk to mention? or simply missed?

it is obvious to me that Broder cranked up the heat as a result of the instructions he received from CS although i strongly question his interpretation.

i am guessing what CS actually told him was that as the batteries warm up, they increase their range and he took that to mean you warm up the car like you would any gasser and THAT is why he did what he did and was not instructed specifically to sit there and wile away the charge in the battery for nothing...

+1

 

[KevinSharpe]

That said, I wish that Tesla was a bit more transparent with their data, with the parameters of TMS operation, and with the SOC of the vehicle (instead of just showing the GOM). I really appreciate what they have done to affect change in the industry, but I think they would be well advised to break the mold when it comes to communications as well, instead of behaving like any other large automaker.

Absolutely!

 

[BEVeedom]

The only thing that the infamous "test drive" proves is that you do not have to be intelligent to drive or own a $100,000+ car.

 

[RegGuheert]

Sorry, but I have to disagree there. I commented on a related thread on TMC two months before Brodergate.

Thanks for the link, surfingslovak! Very interesting read! For reference, I have compiled a list of all the owner reports of lost overnight displayed range (unplugged) from that thread:

    Date   |      State    | Temperature |    Time   | Initial Range | Final Range
2012/12/21 |       VA      | "Very cold" |   16 hrs  |     145 mi    |   102 mi
2012/12/18 |       CA      |     40F     | overnight |     106 mi    |    72 mi
2012/12/21 |       FL      |  High 40Fs  | overnight |     160 mi    |   130 mi
2012/12/23 |  Buffalo, NY  |      ?      |   40 hrs  |     217 mi    |   143 mi
2012/12/24 |   Ottawa, CA  |      5C     |   15 hrs  |     380 km    |   364 km
2012/12/29 | San Mateo, CA |  "Chilly"   |  one week |  220 - 230 mi |   191 mi
2012/12/29 |       MD      |     <35F    | overnight |      48 mi    |    26 mi
2012/??/?? | Tehapachi, ?? |      22F    | overnight |     185 mi    |   145 mi
2012/12/30 |       CA      |      55F    |   13 hrs  |      62 mi    |    46 mi
2012/12/26 |       NM      |  15F to 40F |   4 days  |     217 mi    |   137 mi

Here's another interesting quote:

In fact the manual describes leaving the car parked for a week at the airport, and makes no mention of ambient temperatures when it describes how much charge the driver should expect to lose. Right now the car is losing more than that amount, it seems, especially if it's cold. So, the manual is either wrong, or there's an issue with the car using more energy than it's supposed to.

A later comment says this:

The loss of indicated range is more than is called for in the manual (which says that the car should lose 1% per day, which would have been about 20 miles lost).

So the Model S manual says you can leave the car parked unplugged at an airport for a week and it shouldn't lose more than 1% range per day.

And here is a comment about what the Tesla website says:

The Tesla website shows that the range drops from 300 miles to 287 miles at 32 degrees. I think that the point people are making here is that the range shows as dropping far more than that when parked for a short duration in cold weather.

There are examples of much bigger drops at higher temperatures given in the thread.

The driver from MD did say the range returned when he drove the car:

After driving then for a few minutes, I've watched the mileage then climb back up the about where I expected it as the pack warms up. It seemed to me to simply be voltage sag due to temperature being displayed.

OTOH, the poster from NM said this:

The 137 mile estimate seemed right, as it declined at a normal rate as I drove, never increasing, stopping, or slowing.

Bottom line: You won't find the answer to this riddle in that thread. You also won't find the answer in the Model S Owner's manual. And you won't find the answer on Tesla's website. I guess my big question is this: I what would be the yearly energy consumption of a Tesla Model S if it were in a cold climate but never driven? It seems like it wastes an inordinate amount of energy with the current firmware.

So it seems that Broder could have reasonably expected to lose only 0.5% of his range by not plugging in overnight (assuming the same outside temperature in the morning as when he turned off the car), and Tesla apparently chose not to share any of this anecdotal evidence with him. And the car told him at each charge opportunity he could make it to his next set of destinations with range to spare before getting back to the superchargers. So he got bad information from the car, bad information from Tesla and would have gotten bad information from the manual had he read that.

I wonder why Tesla expected Broder to have a successful trip when they provided him with so much bad information?

 

[smkettner]

And the car told him at each charge opportunity he could make it to his next set of destinations with range to spare before getting back to the superchargers. So he got bad information from the car, bad information from Tesla and would have gotten bad information from the manual had he read that.

I wonder why Tesla expected Broder to have a successful trip when they provided him with so much bad information?

Except the range actually dropped faster than originally predicted. So by experience of the first two charges Broder still decided to charge less than 100%.
Have people forgotten how to use their brains :roll:

On the morning of the tow, Broder was L2 charging and decided to leave before the car indicated enough range. Where is the bad information?

If all had gone easy and predictable then Tesla would take part in this.

 

[thankyouOB]

dont have a tesla, and really dont know what happened.
all the meandering postings are lost on me, including asserting that it is OK to not fully charge when the GOM tells you that the car has way enuff sufficient range to reach your destination, EVEN WHEN the car company tells you to fully charge at each supercharger.

Except, The Truth remains this--unless you own a Tesla and know differently:
the NYT got its story and Tesla got a black eye.
the Tesla did some crisis communication AFTER and spin control, and recovered a little.

All around, a bad day for Tesla, or even a bad week or two.
So gang, a poll, which is true? U pick

-never get in a fight with a guy who buys ink by the barrel
or
-the only bad publicity is your obituary

 

[KevinSharpe]

On the morning of the tow, Broder was L2 charging and decided to leave before the car indicated enough range. Where is the bad information?

Do you think it's possible that Tesla gave out some bad information on the phone? IMO it seems most likely that Tesla instructed Mr Broder to 'condition' the car in the morning and then to divert to the L2 Charging Station. Tesla did this even though it's clear the car had enough range to reach the SuperCharger if it had just left in the morning (and ignored what the car's instrumentation was telling them).

 

[Nubo]

the NYT got its story and Tesla got a black eye.
the Tesla did some crisis communication AFTER and spin control, and recovered a little.

All around, a bad day for Tesla, or even a bad week or two.
So gang, a poll, which is true? U pick

-never get in a fight with a guy who buys ink by the barrel
or
-the only bad publicity is your obituary

In the end, the success or failure of the Model S will be due to word of mouth from its owners.