Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[KevinSharpe]

We do know it. It is right there on the data they provided. I am not going to assume Tesla is going to self destruct by manipulating data.

Ok, so why would Tesla not release the full logs given people have raised legitimate questions about the data they released? How would that in anyway undermine their case?

 

[Alric]

Probably because it contains proprietary information. Also understand that Raw data does not add any more credibility to the graphs since Raw data can be altered as well.

 

[smkettner]

Here is the real data point; Broder failed to charge the vehicle.
The rest is just parsing of the noise.

 

[Stoaty]

I'm a long term EV driver and consider myself 'prudent' but I don't spend my life waiting for my EV to charge to 100% and wouldn't expect anyone else to do that either.

I don't either... but that is because I have gotten to know the limitations of my Leaf and I have a Gid meter. When I first got my Leaf I was very cautious about charging and making sure I wouldn't get stranded. It's a paradigm change.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

that's exactly right, this guy's articles are thinly veiled Faux News style FUD, they fail to present how far EV's have come and what their strengths are, not just their weaknesses. he would not have mentioned, that on that same morning, surely thousands of ICE vehicles would not start, being the coldest night of the winter, as their frozen lead acid batteries would not turn their starters, nor would he mention that ICE vehicles take some understanding the prep for winter as well. On that very same morning surely there were many vehicles in MA that would not go into gear because the block heaters were not plugged in and their owners forgot to change to a lighter oil in the crank case, which was frozen to a thick molasses. reality is, all cars take some getting to know and some accommodation in extremes.

Here is the real data point; Broder failed to charge the vehicle.
The rest is just parsing of the noise.

 

[RegGuheert]

Here is the real data point; Broder failed to charge the vehicle.
The rest is just parsing of the noise.

He didn't fail to charge it. He charged it to a point where he thought he would have 50% more range than he needed.

It would be one thing if he had stopped charging and only saved himself a minute or two by doing so, but he saved himself 30 minutes in 20F weather (or so he thought).

he would not have mentioned, that on that same morning, surely thousands of ICE vehicles would not start, being the coldest night of the winter, as their frozen lead acid batteries would not turn their starters, nor would he mention that ICE vehicles take some understanding the prep for winter as well. On that very same morning surely there were many vehicles in MA that would not go into gear because the block heaters were not plugged in and their owners forgot to change to a lighter oil in the crank case, which was frozen to a thick molasses. reality is, all cars take some getting to know and some accommodation in extremes.

At 10F? Surely you jest!

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Jest? nope, I grew up in PA and we had issues with ICE vehicles in cold whether if we didn't take precautions. a heavy summer time oil would gell, and as lead acid batteries age, their tolerance to cold dwindles remarkably, even at 10F. out of millions of cars in the northeast, I would not be surprised at all if thousands had problems starting that very same morning... we can argue about the unknown, but it's a fact that extreme cold takes it's toll on all kinds of cars. maybe Broder was hoping the S was magic, but based on his writing style, it's pretty obvious he was hoping for failure.

At 10F? Surely you jest![/quote]

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

there is no accurate predictor of distance available on gas or electric cars and there never will be, they just can't predict the future, too many variables, that EV's even try is simply an attempt to quell people's fears, and it back fires, i'll give you that. Broder was going on hypotheticals when in reality both electric and gas car drivers tend to be extra cautious, "filling up" right about when Broder decided push it, with the lame excuse that it was cold out, even though you can heat your car and charge at the same time. He's a FUDster, plain and simple.

He didn't fail to charge it. He charged it to a point where he thought he would have 50% more range than he needed.

 

[thankyouOB]

as someone who spent 30 years in high-end journalism, i gotta say that it has become extremely tiresome to see your continued attacks on Broder as a dedicated hater.
you have a view, but you assert it as proven fact. when you cite articles, they are ambiguous.

 

[Stoaty]

Stick a fork in this thread... it's done. Worse than the gun discussion thread. No one will change their mind based on the arguments being offered.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Was at my eye doc today. He's just recently become interested in EV's, curious if it might be possible for him, so he asks me lots of questions. Somewhere in the discussion he brings up the story like this: "I heard the NYT gave the Tesla a bad review and Tesla's stock went down and they lost alot of orders."

Not Broder. Never heard of him. But the NYT. And if investors and customers are bailing, there must be something wrong with Tesla's and so are similar things wrong with other EV's?

Most people I meet have little to no awareness of EV's, but it's people like him, people who are curious and on the edge of investigation, that pick up on EV stories and may be influenced by them, this is where the real damage is done, wether Broder or the NYT or Tesla or Musk are more or less culpable, the real problem is that people who have a potential to be EV drivers may be deterred, if not by bad or even mis-information, jsut by the negative tone.

Is there an association of EV manufacturers, and other interested parties? Why don't I see full page ads in newspapers and magazines touting the benefits of EVs?

And what about just the manufacturers? I see very few commercials for EV's. Maybe a couple here and there, but not the media blitz needed to launch a new technology. The imagry of happy drivers as they zip past gas stations?

Advertising works. Trying to get free publicity from media that don't know how the cars work? No.

 

[smkettner]

Here is the real data point; Broder failed to charge the vehicle.
The rest is just parsing of the noise.

He didn't fail to charge it. He charged it to a point where he thought he would have 50% more range than he needed.

It would be one thing if he had stopped charging and only saved himself a minute or two by doing so, but he saved himself 30 minutes in 20F weather (or so he thought

The vehicle said it could not make the distance. BRODER tried every trick in the book except actually charging the vehicle. BRODER decided to play chicken with the remaining range and he lost the bet. BRODER then needed a tow. Does Broder blame his gasoline car for running out of fuel too? BRODER caused the tow. The tow was the expected outcome.

Saved himself 30 minutes? 20F weather? 50% more than needed? That is all just more noise.

 

[smkettner]

as someone who spent 30 years in high-end journalism, i gotta say that it has become extremely tiresome to see your continued attacks on Broder as a dedicated hater.
you have a view, but you assert it as proven fact. when you cite articles, they are ambiguous.

I don't think Broder is a hater. Broder just needs to fess up that he could have easily avoided the tow and that it was himself that screwed up.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Stick a fork in this thread... it's done. Worse than the gun discussion thread. No one will change their mind based on the arguments being offered.

Endless argument, may be, but at least it's staying on topic this time.

 

[RegGuheert]

The vehicle said it could not make the distance. BRODER tried every trick in the book except actually charging the vehicle. BRODER decided to play chicken with the remaining range and he lost the bet. BRODER then needed a tow. Does Broder blame his gasoline car for running out of fuel too? BRODER caused the tow. The tow was the expected outcome.

Well, I misrememebered a couple of numbers, but you are trying to completely rewrite history. Here is the quote from the original article:

Instead, I spent nearly an hour at the Milford service plaza as the Tesla sucked electrons from the hitching post. When I continued my drive, the display read 185 miles, well beyond the distance I intended to cover before returning to the station the next morning for a recharge and returning to Manhattan.

He sat for an HOUR and got a total of 185 miles of indicated range. I was wrong before: it would have taken him another HOUR to finish charging (total TWO HOURS), not 30 minutes, since charging is slower at the end. I'm sorry, but splitting at this point knowing he only needed to drive 158 miles total makes a lot of sense given the information he had available to him.

I drove, slowly, to Stonington, Conn., for dinner and spent the night in Groton, a total distance of 79 miles. When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range — the electrical equivalent of someone having siphoned off more than two-thirds of the fuel that was in the tank when I parked.

Anything after this point is just knock-on effects of the car somehow managing to throw away 65 miles (72%!!) of the available range while Broder slept.

Frankly, the tone of the article he wrote was pretty mild considering what the car put him through. After Tesla wasted over half of his day that next morning with him still having to drive back to Washington including two long charge stops, I really don't blame him for throwing the Model S under the bus.

If Elon Musk didn't want to lose $100M due to fallout from a bad review in the NYT he should have considered taking the following steps BEFORE offering the car to them for a review:
1) Test the Model S somewhere outside of CA where the temperature gets quite a bit lower.
2) Fix the problems related to vanishing range estimates that were uncovered in the tests in 1) above.
3) Properly set expectations to the reporter chosen by the NYT so as to under promise and over deliver.
4) Give thorough training to the NYT reporter so that they fully understand the best practices for driving the Model S on a long range test in 10F weather.
5) Train SOMEONE within Tesla to assist the NYT reporter should he have any questions en route to help ensure a successful trip.

Unfortunately it seems to me that Tesla did NONE of these things. Instead, they simply hand the car over to a reporter who is arguably anti-EV and then proceed to give him one bit of bad advice after another until what starts out as a good drive turns into a train wreck. After all that, Elon decides that offense is the best defense and then wonders why this all cost him so much money.

In the end, Tesla will be fine. The Model S is an awesome car and the cancellations that occurred were almost certainly a good thing, since those likely would have been dissatisfied customers anyway. Tesla should probably thank Broder for telling their potential customers about a significant "feature" of the Model S which they failed to disclose to them.

 

[Alric]

See my previous post. The car was warmed up to 75 degrees while parked. I bet he left the heat on overnight or set it to warm up too early before departure. See the purple arrows.

And now that I think about it; why doesn't the temperature drop below 67 while the vehicle is presumably parked o/n at Groton?

 

[RegGuheert]

See my previous post. The car was warmed up to 75 degrees while parked. I bet he left the heat on overnight or set it to warm up too early before departure.

It's an interesting theory. You might be right. Is there any way to find out? It's hard to tell from a plot versus mileage rather than a plot versus time. I wonder if Tesla has that information.

But maybe it is simply the standard preheat temperature. I know the LEAF preheats to something higher than I would choose. Also, the LEAF limits the amount of time for the preheat to something like 20 minutes if not plugged in. Does the Model S not have this type of limitation?

 

[Alric]

One way to show that at least it is consistent with leaving the heater running is to repeat the situation by another Tesla S. I'm going to post this on the Tesla forums and see what they think. Frankly I expect this to have been covered in their discussions.

 

[RegGuheert]

One way to show that at least it is consistent with leaving the heater running is to repeat the situation by another Tesla S. I'm going to post this on the Tesla forums and see what they think. Frankly I expect this to have been covered in their discussions.

That's a good idea. But didn't surfingslovak say that some of the Tesla owners over there have experienced similar things to what happened with Broder?

It's certainly possible that it was user error without the user actually knowing they had done it. Those are the kinds of mistakes that the vehicle should try to stop you from making.

 

[smkettner]

The vehicle said it could not make the distance. BRODER tried every trick in the book except actually charging the vehicle. BRODER decided to play chicken with the remaining range and he lost the bet. BRODER then needed a tow. Does Broder blame his gasoline car for running out of fuel too? BRODER caused the tow. The tow was the expected outcome.

Well, I misrememebered a couple of numbers, but you are trying to completely rewrite history. Here is the quote from the original article:

Instead, I spent nearly an hour at the Milford service plaza as the Tesla sucked electrons from the hitching post. When I continued my drive, the display read 185 miles, well beyond the distance I intended to cover before returning to the station the next morning for a recharge and returning to Manhattan.

He sat for an HOUR and got a total of 185 miles of indicated range. I was wrong before: it would have taken him another HOUR to finish charging (total TWO HOURS), not 30 minutes, since charging is slower at the end. I'm sorry, but splitting at this point knowing he only needed to drive 158 miles total makes a lot of sense given the information he had available to him.

I drove, slowly, to Stonington, Conn., for dinner and spent the night in Groton, a total distance of 79 miles. When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range — the electrical equivalent of someone having siphoned off more than two-thirds of the fuel that was in the tank when I parked.

Anything after this point is just knock-on effects of the car somehow managing to throw away 65 miles (72%!!) of the available range while Broder slept.

Frankly, the tone of the article he wrote was pretty mild considering what the car put him through. After Tesla wasted over half of his day that next morning with him still having to drive back to Washington including two long charge stops, I really don't blame him for throwing the Model S under the bus.

If Elon Musk didn't want to lose $100M due to fallout from a bad review in the NYT he should have considered taking the following steps BEFORE offering the car to them for a review:
1) Test the Model S somewhere outside of CA where the temperature gets quite a bit lower.
2) Fix the problems related to vanishing range estimates that were uncovered in the tests in 1) above.
3) Properly set expectations to the reporter chosen by the NYT so as to under promise and over deliver.
4) Give thorough training to the NYT reporter so that they fully understand the best practices for driving the Model S on a long range test in 10F weather.
5) Train SOMEONE within Tesla to assist the NYT reporter should he have any questions en route to help ensure a successful trip.

Unfortunately it seems to me that Tesla did NONE of these things. Instead, they simply hand the car over to a reporter who is arguably anti-EV and then proceed to give him one bit of bad advice after another until what starts out as a good drive turns into a train wreck. After all that, Elon decides that offense is the best defense and then wonders why this all cost him so much money.

In the end, Tesla will be fine. The Model S is an awesome car and the cancellations that occurred were almost certainly a good thing, since those likely would have been dissatisfied customers anyway. Tesla should probably thank Broder for telling their potential customers about a significant "feature" of the Model S which they failed to disclose to them.

You forgot this part: Broder writes, "The displayed range never reached the number of miles remaining to Milford, and as I limped along at about 45 miles per hour I saw increasingly dire dashboard warnings to recharge immediately."

I guess Broder did admit he made a mistake: Broder writes; "Looking back, I should have bought a membership to Butch’s and spent a few hours there while the car charged."

That is what I am talking about. Broder painted himself into a corner then failed to make the extra effort.