Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[TonyWilliams]

...our own jkirkebo is quite concerned that he cannot take the Model S to a remote cabin for a week in the wintertime since he does not have enough PV solar available to feed it and does not want to run the generator most of the time while there. (BTW, apparently the LEAF has made this trip successfully in the past.)...

People who clamor for a battery TMS for LEAF might consider this. There are advantages as well as disadvantages in Nissan's approach, it seems. I do like parking the car for a week or two with a range loss that's almost not noticeable.

I can park my car with the fuse pulled on the TMS... same effect. When I need TMS, just plug it in.

 

[DaveEV]

Maybe not the best way to handle it especially as some with direct experience have said Broder could have made the supercharger if he had just sat down and driven modestly with maybe the heat on very low.

I'm sorry, but after reading the entire thread over at TMC I am convinced that is simply a myth put forth by some Model S owners who didn't like someone criticing the car they had purchased. I agree he may have regained some miles on the DTE if he had simply gotten in and driven, but I think it would have added no more than 10 miles, probably less, which would not have gotten him there.

I'm sorry, but the SOC/estimated-range data published by Tesla clearly shows that he very likely would have made it. I've posted this multiple times now. Look at it.

 

[RegGuheert]

I'm sorry, but the SOC/estimated-range data published by Tesla clearly shows that he very likely would have made it. I've posted this multiple times now. Look at it.

O.K. I'll accept that Broder possibly could have driven 46 miles starting from a cold battery at 10F ambient temperature with 30% SOC since he drove 51 miles at ~20F with a conditioned battery starting from 28% SOC. It's also possible that he would have gotten stranded on the side of the road.

It's too bad there is not an SOC meter in the Model S for the driver to see.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

hence the manufacturer's recommendation to plug the car in at night! It is noteworthy that if you are planning to drive out into a remote area without even a campground around and leave the car sitting for many days, then you may have to do a work around with the TMS like Tony's, pull the fuse, not a big deal.

So, you mention how well the Leaf holds up overnight in the cold. Lets take a closer look at what would have happened to the Leaf if it had been charged Broder style. Obviously he would have had to charge it for much longer and more frequently even with an extensive CHAdeMO network, no surprise there. Those extra few minutes Broder would have had to wait for the S to gain substantial charge at a super charger would have taken hours in the Leaf. Broder parked with what, 75 miles showing, what's that about 25-30% SOC? I've only cold soaked the Leaf to the low 20's, and I do have to say that while the GOM didn't show a sudden drop, the reality is that the Leaf looses amazing range due to cold and all the inefficiencies that go with it. at 10F the loss of range would be easily 50%. Equivalencies roughly equal, Broder would have parked the Leaf with 22 miles showing on the GOM and only the ability to drive maybe 12 the next morning after cold soaking. If he had planned his charging stops based on 22 instead of 12 he would have gotten his tow truck money shot just the same in the Leaf. With the Leaf, it's critical to charge it up with plenty of wiggle room in the winter.

The wonderful thing about the Tesla S is that even after cold soaking in extreme cold, it is possible, with shore power, to regain much of the winter time loss associated with cold soaking without the hours of charging and prewarming that it has taken me to regain even a little bit of winter time range in the Leaf.

...I'm sorry, but after reading the entire thread over at TMC I am convinced that is simply a myth put forth by some Model S owners who didn't like someone criticing the car they had purchased. I agree he may have regained some miles on the DTE if he had simply gotten in and driven, but I think it would have added no more than 10 miles, probably less, which would not have gotten him there.

Notice from my summary of that thread that only some of the owners saw the DTE operate abnormally after the loss of range. Others saw it go down just like it always does. So why the difference? My conclusion (as others have also concluded) is that four things cause the Model S to lose indicated range overnight: 1) the normal 10 miles/night tare loss that Model S owners often see, 2) an additional 10 to 20 miles of loss due to the car trying to maintain the battery at 20F, 3) another 5 to 10 miles which will be consumed to reheat the battery and cabin to operating temperatures when starting to drive, and 4) the DTE reading low in the cold for some reason.

...

 

[smkettner]

Even if Broder had tried to go direct he could have stopped midway at L2 instead of starting out going 10 miles in the wrong direction. 30 to 60 minutes of L2 in the right direction would have been far better. I believe Broder's story said he was actually trying for an L2 when the vehicle stalled. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Still Broder was at L2 that morning and left before sufficient range was indicated.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...It's too bad there is not an SOC meter in the Model S for the driver to see.

The S has a SOC meter, several and a phone SOC meter as well. the battery meter is broken into 10 bars. If on the rare occasion you are cutting close enough to want that kind of granularity you simply press the battery icon on the main screen.

what else would you like to know about this car for which you are so passionate? :~) I would happily take you for a test drive some time if you are in the area!

 

[RegGuheert]

Even if Broder had tried to go direct he could have stopped midway at L2 instead of starting out going 10 miles in the wrong direction.

Why Tesla sent him that way is beyond me:

The Tesla people found an E.V. charging facility that Norwich Public Utilities had recently installed. Norwich, an old mill town on the Thames River, was only 11 miles away, though in the opposite direction from Milford.

Still Broder was at L2 that morning and left before sufficient range was indicated.

With Tesla's permission:

Tesla’s experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford.

 

[RegGuheert]

The S has a SOC meter, several and a phone SOC meter as well. the battery meter is broken into 10 bars.

O.K. Thanks for the correction!

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I think it's well established that at the very least, Tesla and Broder had a problem with communication. it's likely he was not speaking to the same person, likely that he did not let on to the back story of special circumstances in each call... yawn...

Even if Broder had tried to go direct he could have stopped midway at L2 instead of starting out going 10 miles in the wrong direction.

Why Tesla sent him that way is beyond me:

The Tesla people found an E.V. charging facility that Norwich Public Utilities had recently installed. Norwich, an old mill town on the Thames River, was only 11 miles away, though in the opposite direction from Milford.

Still Broder was at L2 that morning and left before sufficient range was indicated.

With Tesla's permission:

Tesla’s experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

the complaints have dropped off substantially since the latest software update and since people have figured out that doing a bit of charging first thing in the morning preconditions the battery, thank goodness it doesn't sit there warming its self all night long, that would get ugly. to say there are those who have reservations about spending $85K on a car is really not saying much. People will continue to have reservations about this new technology for some time to come.

...
Regarding owner word-of-mouth, it is not all positive regarding this issue. I'm glad to hear that George is happy with the purchase, but other Model S owners and reservation holders have real reservations, particularly those in cold climates. ...

 

[smkettner]

Even if Broder had tried to go direct he could have stopped midway at L2 instead of starting out going 10 miles in the wrong direction.

Why Tesla sent him that way is beyond me:

The Tesla people found an E.V. charging facility that Norwich Public Utilities had recently installed. Norwich, an old mill town on the Thames River, was only 11 miles away, though in the opposite direction from Milford.

Still Broder was at L2 that morning and left before sufficient range was indicated.

With Tesla's permission:

Tesla’s experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford.

Clarity and advice from customer service might be lacking. Might be miscommunication or pressure from Broder that wanted (insisted?) to roll. Again a bunch of he said/she said noise.

Either way the vehicle was correct. Broder unplugged too soon.

 

[RegGuheert]

Either way the vehicle was correct. Broder unplugged too soon.

No argument there. In this case, it was both correct and conservative.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

you just keep sticking your foot in it. the Leaf with the CWP heats the battery in extreme cold, using up range if not plugged in, are you saying the Leaf also makes "rookie mistakes"?

Look bottom line, IMHO, Broder is pro XL pipeline, anti EV, wrote damming summations of EV's and Tesla, he's broadly against EV's in general. His Tesla article, released practically on the eve of the president's state of the union address was no doubt designed to help build pressure against future funding of one of the president's darlings, EV's. This is all part of a larger strategy, to help emphasize, IMHO, that XL pipeline is really one of the only viable alternatives, that there is no other viable way to gain independence from foreign oil. In reality of course, the pipeline is mostly about making money, not delivering oil to the US... the pipeline goes straight to our ports. I'd wager a large sum of money that this is exactly why Broder set this trip up to fail, Tesla was getting nothing but glowing reviews and is beginning to show signs of success, a formidable opponent to the ICE industry. It's quite likely the article was a thinly veiled political stab at president Obama and one of many chess pieces being strategically placed to force the pipeline through. there is so much money at stake, it is imaginable to me that the powers that be are in fact this strategic.

Broder either has a big political ax to grind, loves sensationalism or is a shill of some sort or all of the above.

...
While the Tesla Model S did some amazing things on this trip, it also made some rookie mistakes. Draining ANY energy from the battery before it is about time to drive simply because it is 10F outside is a mistake made by a car designed for CA weather, IMO. ...

 

[thankyouOB]

if Tesla or Broder would have, beforehand and during the fateful drive, put in the analysis and thought you guys have put into the autopsy of what happened -- Broder would have been able to drive to Portland ME.

 

[RegGuheert]

you just keep sticking your foot in it. the Leaf with the CWP heats the battery in extreme cold, using up range if not plugged in, are you saying the Leaf also makes "rookie mistakes"?

Not at all. The Tesla Model S apparently heats the battery below 20F. This is 25F above the point where the LEAF heats the battery. Where the LEAF minimizes wasted energy while protecting the battery, the Tesla Model S wastes energy by using parameters which are inappropriate in many of the colder climates outside of California.

You just happen to live in a climate which is compatible with the Tesla Model S. But note that they are selling it elsewhere.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I believe since Broder's car was not plugged in and was low on charge that there was no warming going on that night. it's actually a pretty smart system in all climates from what I can tell. the extra mass of the battery and the TMS do come with their own complexities, like needing to find a plug in really cold nights... or, as has been said add nauseum, charging up all the way. A trade off I'm happy to make. As Tony pointed out, in the off chance you really need to override the TMS you just pull the fuse for that period of time but that is not needed for day to day driving which is the bulk of intended use. fortunately as places like Phoenix heat up for the summer, we will see mostly up sides to the TMS, rapid permanent range loss is on a whole other order of magnitude. unfortunately for the Leaf, things are only going to get worse with each coming summer.

you just keep sticking your foot in it. the Leaf with the CWP heats the battery in extreme cold, using up range if not plugged in, are you saying the Leaf also makes "rookie mistakes"?

Not at all. The Tesla Model S apparently heats the battery below 20F. This is 25F above the point where the LEAF heats the battery. Where the LEAF minimizes wasted energy while protecting the battery, the Tesla Model S wastes energy by using parameters which are inappropriate in many of the colder climates outside of California.

You just happen to live in a climate which is compatible with the Tesla Model S. But note that they are selling it elsewhere.

 

[SanDust]

Broder either has a big political ax to grind, loves sensationalism or is a shill of some sort or all of the above.

You don't need a conspiracy theory when it's obvious that the Model S is a terrible choice for long distance travel. This Tesla owner, though familiar with the car and in much warmer weather, didn't have a much better experience going from San Diego to Las Vegas than Broder did on his trip in the Northeast. http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/san-diego-las-vegas-road-trip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In both cases the trips were most notable for buggy software, bad range estimation, no signage for the chargers, and, most importantly, far less range than advertised. He was bummed to be driving the slowest car on the road, was constantly worried about the battery running out of juice, and ended up taking an ICE back to San Diego because he didn't have enough range to get to the next fast charger. Just as you are doing with Broder, some of the commentators went to some pains to point out all the things he did wrong. But he's no dummy and I can assure you he's not anti-EV.

Some simply gave voice to the obvious, which is that the range just isn't there. Pungoteague_Dave, who I don't know or don't know I know, had this to say: You cannot go 300 miles with this car driving 55. It simply isn't possible, and I tried. 244 was the max, on flat land, very few stops, never over 55, HVAC off, max range charge, range mode on. That was not a reasonable way to operate the car. And that range will decline with battery age. As others are now noting and acknowledging, the appropriate maximum trip planning range for an 85 kw S is 175 miles, and that may be too much for drivers with a heavy foot. When another poster said many people were getting 300 miles of range, he responded this way: Prove it. Find me one example of a person getting 300 or even 265 miles driving at normal speeds, with traffic, on normal roads. It does not exist. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just real. People need to adjust their expectations and TM needs to adjust its marketing.

Tesla is doing exactly what Nissan did, which is making all kinds of wild range claims. These exaggerated claims came back to bite them in the butt in the Broder article as the car was not up to even a carefully choreographed longer trip in colder weather.

 

[RegGuheert]

This Tesla owner, though familiar with the car and in much warmer weather, didn't have a much better experience going from San Diego to Las Vegas than Broder did on his trip in the Northeast. http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/san-diego-las-vegas-road-trip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That trip was in an 85 S rather than the 85 P which Broder drove. IIRC, the 85 P has the hand-wound motor which gives higher power levels. Is the efficiency also very different?

 

[RegGuheert]

I believe since Broder's car was not plugged in and was low on charge that there was no warming going on that night. it's actually a pretty smart system in all climates from what I can tell.

I'm sorry, but any EV which *wastes* 6 kWh/day to do absolutely nothing is not employing a "pretty smart system". Wasting that much energy each day makes no sense whatsoever no matter how you look at it:

Left car at Albuquerque airport for 4 full days, Dec 22 - Dec 26, with temperatures averaging lows of mid-teens at night and high 30s to mid 40s during the days. Car had 217 miles of charge when left, 137 when I returned. Average loss: 20 miles/day.

And this was not a gauge error:

The 137 mile estimate seemed right, as it declined at a normal rate as I drove, never increasing, stopping, or slowing.

Again, Tesla needs to reign in their wasteful Model S. If we put too many EVs out there which waste 2 MWh/year, we will cause as many energy issues as we solve.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

175 miles is just preposterous unless you are driving very fast the whole time and have everything set to auto. and BTW, the guy wasn't planning on driving the car back so he likely was more liberal with his energy use. I've driven over 200 starting short of a standard charge and ending far from empty. I do manage the Climate control and watch overall energy use. someone needs to parse it all out the Tony Williams has with the Leaf. even with the heat pump, if you leave the power defrost and the AC on in the car and let everything go to auto you will not get the max range out of the Tesla S, which, on most days, is just fine. Anyone attempting to max out the range in an EV has to do a little homework and get to know the car they are driving.

It's also quite possible, as with the Leaf, that some S owners may have a limited battery pack. I've owned 3 Leafs and each one has had different levels of efficiency and range. My second Leaf came with a handicap, even a few limited cells can limit the whole pack.

...As others are now noting and acknowledging, the appropriate maximum trip planning range for an 85 kw S is 175 miles, and that may be too much for drivers with a heavy foot. ...