Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[RegGuheert]

You forgot this part: Broder writes, "The displayed range never reached the number of miles remaining to Milford, and as I limped along at about 45 miles per hour I saw increasingly dire dashboard warnings to recharge immediately."

I guess Broder did admit he made a mistake: Broder writes; "Looking back, I should have bought a membership to Butch’s and spent a few hours there while the car charged."

That is what I am talking about. Broder painted himself into a corner then failed to make the extra effort.

Sure, that happened. As I said, it was purely a knock-on effect of the range disappearing overnight. Had the range not disappeared, he would have simply driven directly to Milford when he got up in the morning like he had originally planned.

 

[smkettner]

By the time he got back to Milford then he charged to over 216 miles to travel the last 71. So then he suddenly goes into overkill. If he had made that effort the day before all would have been fine.

Then he makes some comment "When I pulled in, the battery had an estimated 124 miles remaining.

I trust that the next driver savored those miles — and dressed warmly, just in case."

As if he made some big contribution to society by not returning the car stone empty.

All the conditions are just noise. Broder failed to charge the car. He was even at the dang charger.
Surely as a journalist he would have some papers to read or a book to put a few hours on.

 

[DaveEV]

Really beating a dead horse here. I posted my thoughts about the whole instance in these two posts which I will consolidate below:

The Model S has a gauge issue - the battery does not lose significant range when the battery gets cold, the DTE indicator simply makes it appear so. Many Model S owners have confirmed that the DTE indicator will not fall as rapidly as normal in when this happens. Just look at how much farther Broder drove than the DTE indicator estimated before he Brodered it.

I bet he would have made it if he didn't waste a bunch of energy warming up the car sitting still and then driving out of his way to a charger.

Look at the Tesla provided data logs. He parked at mile 400 with ~37% SOC / 75 mi DTE. The next data point shows ~30% SOC / 25 mi DTE which I presume occurred while he was heating up the car to 75F and going nowhere. If he had simply driven off without warming the car up or taking any detours, he would have made it into the supercharger 46 miles away. Instead he drove 11 miles in the opposite direction, drawing down the SOC to ~22%, charged back up to about the same SOC he started the morning with, then drove 51 miles before Brodering it (6 miles farther than he originally had to drive).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

See my previous post. The car was warmed up to 75 degrees while parked. I bet he left the heat on overnight or set it to warm up too early before departure.

It's an interesting theory. You might be right. Is there any way to find out? It's hard to tell from a plot versus mileage rather than a plot versus time. I wonder if Tesla has that information.

But maybe it is simply the standard preheat temperature. I know the LEAF preheats to something higher than I would choose. Also, the LEAF limits the amount of time for the preheat to something like 20 minutes if not plugged in. Does the Model S not have this type of limitation?

no no no. he is not right and if so then how could Elon have blown such a golden opp to explain how the car lost so much range?

i was gone from this thread for a week and just spent 20 minutes reading the last 7-8 pages and read about 4 paragraphs that relayed decent (cant say new since it is old info referenced but still very pertinent) information to the topic and stated it correctly in that we dont have the info to determine exactly one way or the other

and as has been my habit, i went back and re read the article and came away with the same conclusions.

any real EV owner would have made it just fine. They never would have parked it overnight without a plug somewhere. I would GLADLY drive 20 miles out of my way and pay $20 more to a hotel that was willing to provide me a plug and in my personal face 2 face with other EV owners, i find this to be a common trait.

Broder lead us to believe that he drove MUCH slower and MUCH colder than he actually did and there is very little doubt of that. the logs, limited as they maybe, very clearly shows this part of the story to be a complete fabrication.

We wont ever know about what Broder was told by Tesla CS and I find it very strange that Broder was not given a direct contact number with a dedicated (and knowledgeable) Tesla Rep for this trip and as stupid as the information sounds, who knows what he was really told but we all know that gas cars get better mileage in Winter after they warm up right?

so, would you when on empty go out and warm up the car for 20 minutes knowing the gas station was 10 miles away you had a better chance of making it?

from all accounts, it would appear that if Broder had simply gotten into the car and made the drive as planned the night before he would have made it (driving at 65º or whatever the cabin temp was set at)

now, is it possible that someone else will make the same mistakes as Broder? (well not ALL of them at the same time...) sure there are an estimated 100-300 people a day who run out of gas in their 400 mile range vehicles while passing several dozen gas stations AND with money in their pockets so ya, someone will be stuck on the side of the road with a dead EV.

but is that the technology's fault? or the manufacturer's fault?

we complain about this DTE being inaccurate but I have yet to see one in the 5 cars that I have owned that had that info on it be correct or even close since all work on the premise of assuming you will continue into the future on the same path you reached the present with.

now sorry if any of these points have already been brought up but after 20 minutes of this, I feel I have endured enough

 

[cwerdna]

any real EV owner would have made it just fine. They never would have parked it overnight without a plug somewhere. I would GLADLY drive 20 miles out of my way and pay $20 more to a hotel that was willing to provide me a plug and in my personal face 2 face with other EV owners, i find this to be a common trait.

Yep on the first part. Even one of the owners who re-created Broder's trip intentionally didn't plug in overnight reported on his GOM loss at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13905-Recreating-the-NY-Times-Road-Trip-Feb-15-17-2013/page37?p=278695&viewfull=1#post278695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Morning Guys!

Just woke up! Its 24 degrees here (may have gotten down to 23-21 degrees last night - not quite as cold as Broder's trip).

Checked my Model S app and my car has 179 miles of range - so a cold soak brought it down from 196, so a difference of 17 miles. Good chance I'd get some of that back as the pack heats up. I was *not* plugged in last night. Even if it was 10 degrees last night - having done a *full range* charge @ Milford to 270 miles last night means that if I saw a "huge" drop like Broder did of 50-70 miles, I would still easily make it the 55-60 miles back to the Milford, CT supercharger...

If you didn't catch it, there were many stories written about the owners' trip. One was at http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082401_tesla-model-s-road-trip-electric-cars-make-it-from-dc-to-ct" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, written by someone who rode along.

 

[Train]

And this just affirms what I have stated many times. A person's time is worth more to them than standing around waiting for some "opportunity" charge.

You really expect that people other than EV advocates, techies and some others are going to charge their battery every chance they get? What's the point then? What a waste of time. Their time is more important than that. They will just continue to drive a petrol powered car instead.

This defeats the whole idea of a "no compromises" EV. And what I've been saying all along is that it IS a compromise.

Even if you pull into a station with a gallon of fuel in the tank, it takes less than five minutes to fill. A few minutes and you're back to 300-400 miles of range.

The average person is going to get tired very quick when it takes 50 minutes to charge on a cold, winter day when they've got a lot more things to do than sit around waiting for a car to charge.

Some are saying the batteries don't lose that much power, it's a gauge issue. Where have we heard that before? You would think by now the most important thing to an EV is the range/miles left gauge. The Times article brings these issues to the forefront and prospective buyers would be very interested.

Many (not all) are assuming that the data logs provided by Tesla are accurate and true. How do you know that?

 

[RegGuheert]

If you didn't catch it, there were many stories written about the owners' trip. One was at http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082401_tesla-model-s-road-trip-electric-cars-make-it-from-dc-to-ct" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, written by someone who rode along.

Thanks!

I don't think the experience of the Tesla owners can be applied directly to Broder's situation because the overnight temperature was higher. According to your link, it may have gotten down to 23F the night the owners went up there. But when Broder did it, the temperature got down to 10F. Is that important? Apparently it is. According to a post this morning by mitch672, the Model S will try to maintain its battery temperature above 20F, even when not plugged in (bolding mine):

The Model S tries to keep its pack at 20F or above, it's been that or below in Boston (where I live) many times since I've picked up my Model S on 1/17/2013. The Model S has limited regen in colder weather, but it quickly goes away during the first several miles of driving, and that's just how it works. It also uses its electric pack heater to condition the battery before charging will start, using AC power, it also runs the pack heater to keep the batteries in operating range even if not connected to AC power.

Somehow I have never heard this fact before. It is a pretty significant point that has a lot of bearing on this situation. Did Tesla tell Broder about this behavior so that he could plan for it? I think we all know the answer. It's clear now why the Model S owners all say you need to keep it plugged in at night. It's also now clear where Broder's range likely disappeared to that night: it was used up trying to keep the battery above 20F (and maybe some was used warming the cabin).

I wonder why Tesla hasn't come clean and told us this fact and also published the logs of the battery temperature that night.

 

[KevinSharpe]

I bet he would have made it if he didn't waste a bunch of energy warming up the car sitting still and then driving out of his way to a charger.

Agreed! This is where I suspect the Tesla people gave the wrong advice to Mr Broder based on what the car was telling them in the morning.

And this just affirms what I have stated many times. A person's time is worth more to them than standing around waiting for some "opportunity" charge.

I completely agree. I NEVER spend longer charging than absolutely necessary for the trip that I am making.... the moment I have enough range I'm gone.

Many (not all) are assuming that the data logs provided by Tesla are accurate and true. How do you know that?

We don't know that and IMO the fact that Tesla have chosen not to release the logs for scrutiny is regrettable.

The Tesla driver community are well used to analysing car logs and they could provide a real insight into what happened on that trip.

I wonder why Tesla hasn't come clean and told us this fact and also published the logs of the battery temperature that night.

I find this very odd.... why not prove categorically that the car has no issues and save yourself "$100 Million"?

Edit: one of the things I've found interesting is the support amongst many Tesla 'fans' for *not* releasing the logs. For many they *know* that the whole trip was a setup and therefore more data is unnecessary :?

 

[mkjayakumar]

Kevin,

Why do you not trust Musk's graphs and keep insisting that they publish their logs? presumably you believe Musk made up those graphs to his convenience. If so nothing stops you from saying that the logs are also cooked, if it matches the graphs. So publishing raw data, is a no-win situation for Tesla.

Or in other words if you stop trusting the company's data at one level, you are going to not trust whatever level of detail they provide you.

Simple as that.

Jay

 

[smkettner]

And this just affirms what I have stated many times. A person's time is worth more to them than standing around waiting for some "opportunity" charge.

You really expect that people other than EV advocates, techies and some others are going to charge their battery every chance they get? What's the point then? What a waste of time. Their time is more important than that. They will just continue to drive a petrol powered car instead.

This defeats the whole idea of a "no compromises" EV. And what I've been saying all along is that it IS a compromise.

Even if you pull into a station with a gallon of fuel in the tank, it takes less than five minutes to fill. A few minutes and you're back to 300-400 miles of range.

The average person is going to get tired very quick when it takes 50 minutes to charge on a cold, winter day when they've got a lot more things to do than sit around waiting for a car to charge.

Some are saying the batteries don't lose that much power, it's a gauge issue. Where have we heard that before? You would think by now the most important thing to an EV is the range/miles left gauge. The Times article brings these issues to the forefront and prospective buyers would be very interested.
Many (not all) are assuming that the data logs provided by Tesla are accurate and true. How do you know that?

In general you are correct. Unfortunately you are using Broder's test drive to confirm conditions that rarely exist in day to day use.
Minor adjustments to Broder's test drive could have saved a lot of time and fustration.
The test drive does not fall into normal use.

And as said before, some gasoline vehicles will unexpectedly fail to start in such conditions.

 

[AndyH]

I agree with the others here - Broder messed up. The pilot in command is responsible for the outcome of the mission - always.

It's easy to lay this on the journalist but IMO Tesla, the Model S, and Mr Musk all had a part to play in what was undoubtedly a PR fiasco waiting to happen.

Your personal opinions of Tesla have been made clear - but that's a distraction. Let's look at Broder's mission for a minute. I've evaluated complex tech in the past. Before the evaluation, one must not only become familiar enough with the equipment to conduct the test (shallow knowledge), but then must deepen their understanding and awareness in order to understand the results. It appears that Broder did none of that. Based on the data presented, it appears Broder treated the S like a BMW. If he did his homework before putting the car into drive, he wouldn't have needed constant hand-holding from Tesla or anyone else.

Tesla's PR fiasco? Should folks at Tesla require technical competency tests before allowing test drives? Maybe. But if the vehicle or charging network was the limiting factor, the other journalists should have duplicated Broder's findings rather than refuting them.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Why do you not trust Musk's graphs and keep insisting that they publish their logs? presumably you believe Musk made up those graphs to his convenience. If so nothing stops you from saying that the logs are also cooked, if it matches the graphs. So publishing raw data, is a no-win situation for Tesla.

Many people have questioned the graphs and IMO they leave many questions unanswered. As a long term Tesla customer and supporter I wish to remove all doubt and discover what really happened on the NYT test drive.

Or in other words if you stop trusting the company's data at one level, you are going to not trust whatever level of detail they provide you.

Not at all... many Tesla Roadster owners share logs in order to participate in projects such as the long term battery degradation study.

IMO publishing the data would remove any doubts about what happened... I want to support Tesla but how can I if they are not open with the data?

 

[KevinSharpe]

Tesla's PR fiasco? Should folks at Tesla require technical competency tests before allowing test drives? Maybe. But if the vehicle or charging network was the limiting factor, the other journalists should have duplicated Broder's findings rather than refuting them.

Many people (including Chelsea Sexton) have predicted this exact scenario.... when using advanced technology at the limits of it's capabilities then you are bound to have a failure sooner or later. Even Mr Musk has said the two SuperChargers should be 60 miles closer together.

Given the Top Gear debacle, and court case, I would hope that Tesla had prepared for just such a scenario in advance.

 

[mkjayakumar]

And this just affirms what I have stated many times. A person's time is worth more to them than standing around waiting for some "opportunity" charge

Train, you hit the nail on the head. This is precisely the reason why I bought the Leaf. If were to guesstimate I would have saved over 20+ hours of waiting time on refueling in the last 12 months of leaf ownership compared to my LX at 16 miles to a gallon. It was such a pain for me to stop at at the local gas station in the morning two or sometimes three times a week, jostling around other cars waiting for a spot, filling it up and burning up 15 minutes every time. Do your math: 52 *30 minutes = 25+ hours

I don't know about you. You may have a lot of time to burn sitting around smelly gas stations, but I am busy man and that is why I bought the Leaf.

 

[Nubo]

See my previous post. The car was warmed up to 75 degrees while parked. I bet he left the heat on overnight or set it to warm up too early before departure. See the purple arrows.

And now that I think about it; why doesn't the temperature drop below 67 while the vehicle is presumably parked o/n at Groton?

Note the vertical axis, that is the temperature "set point" (temperature selected on the climate control), not the cabin temperature.

 

[Alric]

Note the vertical axis, that is the temperature "set point" (temperature selected on the climate control), not the cabin temperature.

It shows Broder set the temperature to 75 while parked at Groton and this corresponds to the loss of range while stationary.

 

[Nubo]

Note the vertical axis, that is the temperature "set point" (temperature selected on the climate control), not the cabin temperature.

It shows Broder set the temperature to 75 while parked at Groton and this corresponds to the loss of range while stationary.

Right, but that doesn't support the conclusion that "The car was warmed up to 75 degrees while parked." , or that the heat was left on.

 

[Alric]

Right, but that doesn't support the conclusion that "The car was warmed up to 75 degrees while parked." , or that the heat was left on.

It doesn't prove it but it does support and is consistent with it.

 

[RegGuheert]

I bet he left the heat on overnight or set it to warm up too early before departure. See the purple arrows.

I've been thinking about this and I will say that if either of these two things happened, then it is a bug in the firmware. It should be impossible to leave the heater on overnight since there is no ON/OFF switch in the Model S. Same with preheating too long. There should be a limit of no more than 30 minutes with the vehicle unplugged.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I bet he left the heat on overnight or set it to warm up too early before departure. See the purple arrows.

I've been thinking about this and I will say that if either of these two things happened, then it is a bug in the firmware. It should be impossible to leave the heater on overnight since there is no ON/OFF switch in the Model S. Same with preheating too long. There should be a limit of no more than 30 minutes with the vehicle unplugged.

wow... so you think that the records showing Broder running the heat all night would not have been significant enough for Musk to mention? or simply missed?

it is obvious to me that Broder cranked up the heat as a result of the instructions he received from CS although i strongly question his interpretation.

i am guessing what CS actually told him was that as the batteries warm up, they increase their range and he took that to mean you warm up the car like you would any gasser and THAT is why he did what he did and was not instructed specifically to sit there and wile away the charge in the battery for nothing...