Brodergate: "low-grade ethics violation"

[DaveinOlyWA]

the NYT got its story and Tesla got a black eye.
the Tesla did some crisis communication AFTER and spin control, and recovered a little.

All around, a bad day for Tesla, or even a bad week or two.
So gang, a poll, which is true? U pick

-never get in a fight with a guy who buys ink by the barrel
or
-the only bad publicity is your obituary

In the end, the success or failure of the Model S will be due to word of mouth from its owners.

maybe, maybe not. word of mouth takes much longer especially with a product that is exclusive due to the price point. the company could fail in that time.

this has been brought up many times. several great products failed because word of mouth was not good enough or fast enough.

one saving grace is that Tesla has generated a TON of publicity which means investors are looking. they could buoy the company long enough to survive to profitability

 

[smkettner]

On the morning of the tow, Broder was L2 charging and decided to leave before the car indicated enough range. Where is the bad information?

Do you think it's possible that Tesla gave out some bad information on the phone? IMO it seems most likely that Tesla instructed Mr Broder to 'condition' the car in the morning and then to divert to the L2 Charging Station. Tesla did this even though it's clear the car had enough range to reach the SuperCharger if it had just left in the morning (and ignored what the car's instrumentation was telling them).

OK, condition the battery sitting still does not make sense to me but in the end Tesla found Broder some L2. Maybe not the best way to handle it especially as some with direct experience have said Broder could have made the supercharger if he had just sat down and driven modestly with maybe the heat on very low. Either way Broder was at L2 and left before indicated range was enough.

My point is to throw out all the he said/she said noise and look that Broder never fully charged the Tesla at the supercharger and failed to charge at the L2.
If you don't charge an EV it will stop. The story is borish 2011 news.

Do we need a test of the RAV4 and Spark to know they will quit when not charged?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

exactly!

On the morning of the tow, Broder was L2 charging and decided to leave before the car indicated enough range. Where is the bad information?

Do you think it's possible that Tesla gave out some bad information on the phone? IMO it seems most likely that Tesla instructed Mr Broder to 'condition' the car in the morning and then to divert to the L2 Charging Station. Tesla did this even though it's clear the car had enough range to reach the SuperCharger if it had just left in the morning (and ignored what the car's instrumentation was telling them).

OK, condition the battery sitting still does not make sense to me but in the end Tesla found Broder some L2. Maybe not the best way to handle it especially as some with direct experience have said Broder could have made the supercharger if he had just sat down and driven modestly with maybe the heat on very low. Either way Broder was at L2 and left before indicated range was enough.

My point is to throw out all the he said/she said noise and look that Broder never fully charged the Tesla at the supercharger and failed to charge at the L2.
If you don't charge an EV it will stop. The story is borish 2011 news.

Do we need a test of the RAV4 and Spark to know they will quit when not charged?

 

[Nubo]

the NYT got its story and Tesla got a black eye.
the Tesla did some crisis communication AFTER and spin control, and recovered a little.

All around, a bad day for Tesla, or even a bad week or two.
So gang, a poll, which is true? U pick

-never get in a fight with a guy who buys ink by the barrel
or
-the only bad publicity is your obituary

In the end, the success or failure of the Model S will be due to word of mouth from its owners.

maybe, maybe not. word of mouth takes much longer especially with a product that is exclusive due to the price point.

My impression would be that it could be faster due to the exclusivity / status symbol relationship for the target demographic. I.e, becoming fashionable amongst the 1%.

Though I don't travel in those circles so I could be all wet.

How about it, Model S owners, what kind of feedback are you getting from your peers?

 

[GRA]

... Again, if this is normal and to be expected, testers should be told, because it's completely alien to ICE behavior.

relying on a range indicator is completely alien to operating a gas car too. I don't know anyone who relies on their range indicator, expecting it to be accurate and only adds just enough gas to get them to the next gas station based on those figures. range indicators in gas cars go up and down wildly. try adding just a few gallons of gas to an empty tank at the top of a mountain pass then drive it down hill to a hotel for the night and then the next day, based on the range indicator drive past all the gas stations on the way back up and over the pass in an attempt to make it to the one that the prediction said you could make it to. In EV terms, this is what Broder did by parking the car without plugging it in on the coldest night of the winter. No one will ever make a range indicator that will accurately calculate this kind of scenario. the notion that someone would take a 300 mile battery pack and try and drive it on the margins at the bottom of it's charge and subject it to temperatures well known to reduce range and not plug it in is just crazy! this guy knew exactly what he was doing.

George, never having owned a car with a DTE, I've never had the option of relying on one OTOH, GM seems to have built a DTE for the Volt that is accurate to within +- 1 mile or so unless you drive like a total maniac, so it appears that it can be done. But again, how is it that virtually the same scenario and results was reported by CR? This is not a one-off event.

As to plugging in overnight, that requires that an owner call ahead and make sure that there is a receptacle available (and convenient) at the place they're staying, which is prudent but certainly blows the claim of 'Zero Compromises' which the range and Supercharger network are supposed to provide. Outside receptacles certainly can't be counted on - when I was scouting potential charging locations along Hwy 120 through Yosemite last September, I was surprised at the number of motels/resorts that lacked any outside outlets (I walked completely around the buildings) in Lee Vining. Perhaps Tesla needs to alter their advertising to read "Fewer Compromises than any other available BEV", which is less pithy but accurate.

Lacking a transcript of the phone conversations between Tesla and Broder, we'll never know if the advice Broder reported receiving was due to misunderstanding or errors by Tesla C.S. reps. Obviously, I lean towards the latter. But here's what I think Tesla P.R. should have done to avoid this whole mess - give Broder something like the following printed instructions:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Owing to the long distance between the Newark and Milford Superchargers as well as the below freezing temperatures and the likely use of lots of heat and defrost, it is STRONGLY recommended [if they think it needs to be MANDATORY, they should say so] that the car be charged in long-range rather than standard mode for at least this leg of the trip, until it is 100% full. To switch to long-range mode, do the following: [Instructions]

2. Owing to the below freezing temperatures likely to be encountered during this trip, when parking the car overnight it is STRONGLY recommended [or MANDATORY] that it be plugged in during the night to protect the battery from cold. You should call ahead and make sure there's an outside receptacle available for your use at your overnight destination. If the car isn't plugged in, the TMS will draw current from the battery rather than from the grid, resulting in rated and/or predicted range reductions of as much as 50-100 miles. While the rated/predicted range will partially recover once the car is driven again, owing to heat generated by the motor and/or regenerative braking, it will still be less than when it was parked the previous night.

3. In the event that no receptacle is available at your overnight destination, it is STRONGLY recommended [or MANDATORY] that you charge the car to completely full (100%, Long-range mode) at the Milford Supercharger; in any case, you should make sure that the predicted range when you leave Milford is at least 50% [or whatever value Tesla people have calculated is necessary for the likely conditions] greater than the round trip range from Milford to your overnight destination and return to Milford.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what I would have done as a Tesla P.R. person, if I thought the car needed all that to make the trip. I would not assume that the driver was experienced with EVs generally or very knowledgeable about the S specifically, and wouldn't need to be told all this.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Actually my impression (since that is not my circle either) is that they are more cautious, much less willing to take therisk and have the patience towait meaning a slower rate of adoption

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...
How about it, Model S owners, what kind of feedback are you getting from your peers?

Everyone who takes a ride in it loves the car, expletives typically come from the passengers when they feel what 448 ft lbs of instant torque is actually like. Before the NYT article virtually everyone would say they have heard nothing but positive things about it. the ones who are most likely to be skeptical are the first to bring up the NYT article but there is no question, out of all the articles, Broder's is the most mentioned by friends and people I meet. Practically everyone I have met since it came out seems to know about it.

The effect of the article quickly disappears into the background when people get to ride in it. The question is, can word of mouth overcome such a high profile smear attempt in a reputable news paper? A start up like Tesla can live or die based on small margins caused by such events that are out of their control.

what Tesla is attempting to do is unparalleled in the industry, there are giant pitfalls at every turn and no matter how many hoops they jump through, each new one seems to be an all or nothing venture. they are still in a very precarious place in terms of long term viability, an easy target. it's kind of a miracle they have made it this far and produced something so revolutionary. Every day I drive the car I am struck with a sense of awe that it exists, and I mean that. to the extent that word of mouth can get Tesla going on the rebound, I'm doing my best to let the car speak for itself by offering test rides.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

the volt is a hybrid, and by design uses a much smaller portion of the middle of the batteries pack capacity, leaving lots of wiggle room. I suspect that what they do is allow a variance for switch over to the gas motor, mostly governed by distance rather than voltage, unless the voltage drop becomes too extreme, I don't believe that the Volt's DTZ is predicting anything. I would put money on it that the Volt mostly takes advantage of the fact that they have leeway on when to make the switch rather than having come up with some truly clairvoyant guessometer. I think Tesla's system has room for improvement, particularly when the car is unplugged, left to cold soak and then warms itself. The Volt GOM is a brilliant system in terms of consistency and instilling user confidence, but I would be very surprised if it is one that can be applied to a pure EV until the batteries are much more dense and therefore can be treated more like a hybrid in this way with plenty of wiggle room, which btw, I do think is the future for EV's.

...
George, never having owned a car with a DTE, I've never had the option of relying on one OTOH, GM seems to have built a DTE for the Volt that is accurate to within +- 1 mile or so unless you drive like a total maniac, so it appears that it can be done. But again, how is it that virtually the same scenario and results was reported by CR? This is not a one-off event.
...

Spot on!

Actually my impression (since that is not my circle either) is that they are more cautious, much less willing to take therisk and have the patience towait meaning a slower rate of adoption

 

[GRA]

...
George, never having owned a car with a DTE, I've never had the option of relying on one OTOH, GM seems to have built a DTE for the Volt that is accurate to within +- 1 mile or so unless you drive like a total maniac, so it appears that it can be done. But again, how is it that virtually the same scenario and results was reported by CR? This is not a one-off event.
...

The volt is a hybrid, and by design uses a much smaller portion of the middle of the batteries pack capacity, leaving lots of wiggle room. I suspect that what they do is allow a variance for switch over to the gas motor, mostly governed by distance rather than voltage, unless the voltage drop becomes too extreme, I don't believe that the Volt's DTZ is predicting anything. I would put money on it that the Volt mostly takes advantage of the fact that they have leeway on when to make the switch rather than having come up with some truly clairvoyant guessometer. I think Tesla's system has room for improvement, particularly when the car is unplugged, left to cold soak and then warms itself. The Volt GOM is a brilliant system, but I suspect is one that can't be applied to a pure EV until the batteries are much more dense and therefore can be treated more like a hybrid in this way plenty of wiggle room, which btw, I do think is the future for EV's.

Interesting points, andGM may do that. OTOH, I did read sometime back (at GM-Volt.com?) that GM basically didn't use instant DTE estimates, but used a rolling average over something like the last 30 trips, which would tend to average out an individual driver's probable range.

 

[GRA]

Here's David Noland's test drive to the Milford Supercharger and back. He too had trouble finding the Superchargers; did Broder have to find them at night?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082664_life-with-2013-tesla-model-s-getting-supercharged-in-winter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[smkettner]

GRA, that is another reason to FULLY charge once the supercharger is located.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

not down to the mile, no rolling average will get that close and I can't think of another way the Volt would achieve it other than varying the switch over voltage and sticking with a constant number of miles whenever possible. It's not possible to make a DTE system that can tell the future in terms of topo, wind direction, ambient temp forecasts, that would be magic. What can be done with a PHEV is just not comparable to what can be done with an EV, two different kettle of fish.

Interesting points, andGM may do that. OTOH, I did read sometime back (at GM-Volt.com?) that GM basically didn't use instant DTE estimates, but used a rolling average over something like the last 30 trips, which would tend to average out an individual driver's probable range.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...That's what I would have done as a Tesla P.R. person, if I thought the car needed all that to make the trip. I would not assume that the driver was experienced with EVs generally or very knowledgeable about the S specifically, and wouldn't need to be told all this.

we just don't know, it's true, heck Broder may not have let on to who he was, that he didn't actually take delivery of the car as an owner and had no basic level of familiarity as one would have as an actual owner. I guess you have a point, in terms of this unlikely scenario that Broder cooked up, the car requires special handling, but it's too many words for Tesla to put in advertising that in almost all, but not all scenarios, this electric car is nearly completely zero compromise.

I can say, so far in 2,000 miles of driving, in the balance of pros and cons vs a gas car, it is zero compromise for me. Actually it exceeds the convenience of a gas car by a long shot on a day to day basis so far and far exceeds the performance of even the McLaren I took a ride in last week with respect to city driving and instant torque. But sure, long distance overnight trips will undoubtedly require some planning and that was perfectly obvious to me when I purchased, given that the super charging network is in it's infancy and the S is not CHAdeMO compatible yet.

 

[RegGuheert]

Maybe not the best way to handle it especially as some with direct experience have said Broder could have made the supercharger if he had just sat down and driven modestly with maybe the heat on very low.

I'm sorry, but after reading the entire thread over at TMC I am convinced that is simply a myth put forth by some Model S owners who didn't like someone criticing the car they had purchased. I agree he may have regained some miles on the DTE if he had simply gotten in and driven, but I think it would have added no more than 10 miles, probably less, which would not have gotten him there.

Notice from my summary of that thread that only some of the owners saw the DTE operate abnormally after the loss of range. Others saw it go down just like it always does. So why the difference? My conclusion (as others have also concluded) is that four things cause the Model S to lose indicated range overnight: 1) the normal 10 miles/night tare loss that Model S owners often see, 2) an additional 10 to 20 miles of loss due to the car trying to maintain the battery at 20F, 3) another 5 to 10 miles which will be consumed to reheat the battery and cabin to operating temperatures when starting to drive, and 4) the DTE reading low in the cold for some reason.

So why did the Model S owner in NM NOT see the effects of number 4) like other owners who saw big drops overnight? I think the simple answer is that the car and its battery had already warmed back up to a more reasonable temperature (40F) by the time he drove it. So the loss he saw on the DTE was ALL real range loss. In Broder's case, most of the indicated loss (~3/4 IME) was likely real based on the temperatures the car saw, but not all.

Regarding owner word-of-mouth, it is not all positive regarding this issue. I'm glad to hear that George is happy with the purchase, but other Model S owners and reservation holders have real reservations, particularly those in cold climates. For instance, our own jkirkebo is quite concerned that he cannot take the Model S to a remote cabin for a week in the wintertime since he does not have enough PV solar available to feed it and does not want to run the generator most of the time while there. (BTW, apparently the LEAF has made this trip successfully in the past.)

It seems this should be a fixable issue, but Tesla has done nothing except blame the messenger since this came to light over two months ago. Let's hope they step up to the plate and reign in some of the Model S' more wasteful behaviors soon.

 

[Zythryn]

...
It seems this should be a fixable issue, but Tesla has done nothing except blame the messenger since this came to light over two months ago. Let's hope they step up to the plate and reign in some of the Model S' more wasteful behaviors soon.

This is simply an assumption on your part, and untrue.
Tesla right away stepped up and said that the superchargers ought to be closer together and that as they add more, they will be.

As for 'wasteful behavior', they are already working on this, have been since before the article came out. But frankly, it isn't an issue if you fill the tank

But the reporter made a number of rookie, and common sense mistakes.
As for the morning drive, he either got bad advice, or gave bad information when asking for help.
I don't know if he would have made it if he had simply gotten in the car and driven. However, he would have come a lot closer if he had not let the car sit while heating, loosing him miles, or driven 11 miles in the wrong direction. While he got an hour charge, he added 22 miles to his trip.

 

[RegGuheert]

This is simply an assumption on your part, and untrue.
Tesla right away stepped up and said that the superchargers ought to be closer together and that as they add more, they will be.

Spacing of superchargers is completely unrelated to the Model S wasting electricity when sitting.

As for 'wasteful behavior', they are already working on this, have been since before the article came out. But frankly, it isn't an issue if you fill the tank

Perhaps you didn't read my post or the thread in question. One owner had to call a friend to retrieve his car from Buffalo airport because it would have discharged the battery before he returned. jkirkebo does not think the Model S will be able to make his usual one-week trip to his remote cabin because of the issues. Filling the tank does nothing to resolve those problems.

But the reporter made a number of rookie, and common sense mistakes.

Of course he did. He is a rookie with EVs. That's why some of us think Tesla should have advised him of the compromises needed to make a successful trip.

While the Tesla Model S did some amazing things on this trip, it also made some rookie mistakes. Draining ANY energy from the battery before it is about time to drive simply because it is 10F outside is a mistake made by a car designed for CA weather, IMO. That problem should have been easily fixed by Tesla when discovered over two months ago, but they have not done it. Why not?

As for the morning drive, he either got bad advice, or gave bad information when asking for help.
I don't know if he would have made it if he had simply gotten in the car and driven. However, he would have come a lot closer if he had not let the car sit while heating, loosing him miles, or driven 11 miles in the wrong direction. While he got an hour charge, he added 22 miles to his trip.

Agreed, but I don't know if there was a Level 2 in the direction of the supercharger that he could reach. If CT is anything like here, there are very view places where you can find a L2 charger.

 

[WetEV]

I don't know if there was a Level 2 in the direction of the supercharger that he could reach. If CT is anything like here, there are very view places where you can find a L2 charger.

Plugshare shows a Nissan Dealer in Groton, two charging stations in Norwich, and the Saybrook Point Inn 25 miles away, in the correct direction.

 

[RegGuheert]

Plugshare shows a Nissan Dealer in Groton, two charging stations in Norwich, and the Saybrook Point Inn 25 miles away, in the correct direction.

O.K. Yeah, he problem could have made that. It would have been a much better solution all around.

 

[thankyouOB]

Plugshare shows a Nissan Dealer in Groton, two charging stations in Norwich, and the Saybrook Point Inn 25 miles away, in the correct direction.

O.K. Yeah, he problem could have made that. It would have been a much better solution all around.

this kind of thing exposes Broder as a not serious EV user. any of us would check out the EVSE maps along the way or have the APP on our phones, and use those.

it was a bad experiment with Broder not doing his homework as he would for any other story, and Tesla not doing its due diligence on a major PR oppty.

bad all around.

 

[Nubo]

...our own jkirkebo is quite concerned that he cannot take the Model S to a remote cabin for a week in the wintertime since he does not have enough PV solar available to feed it and does not want to run the generator most of the time while there. (BTW, apparently the LEAF has made this trip successfully in the past.)...

People who clamor for a battery TMS for LEAF might consider this. There are advantages as well as disadvantages in Nissan's approach, it seems. I do like parking the car for a week or two with a range loss that's almost not noticeable.