Bought a 2011 Leaf on 03/15/2015 with a "new pack", but...

[kuri]

It seems like a lot of you on this post are being way too passive about this. If I were in the OPs position I would be completely pissed off and out for blood. He was sold a false bill of goods, from a Nissan dealer none the less that could have easily checked the state of the battery and whether it was a true replacement. They likely also sold the car at a higher price because of this. I would demand them to refund me a portion of the money and also give me the option to sell them back the car at the purchase price if I didn't qualify for the battery replacement under the warranty. If they didn't agree, it would be lawsuit time and I would publicly expose the dealer to the media, the blogs, contact Nissan corporate, etc...

We had our dealer misrepresent the extended warranty on our car as something that also extended the battery capacity warranty. When they were not willing to make it right, all it took was us threatening to plaster their name all over this forum as well as do the same on Apple's employee email group for EV owners.

OPs issue is much bigger than this and he is significantly put out by the ordeal as he now has a car that is nearly unusable for his daily needs.

Believe me, I'm pissed. I also realize the reality of the situation, and I am fully aware of what kind of ammunition I need if I end up having to go to the mat with these assholes. That's the entire reason this post was made... to collect information from a far more knowledgeable group of people about how to verify that this battery is not new, and how to go about proving that in an indisputable manner.

As of right now, the only way I know to "prove" the battery is bad is to get the test done by Nissan themselves, which shows 11 bars and that the battery is "just fine". I have no other way to provide legally enforceable data to prove otherwise. Many people in this thread have given me a lot of really good ideas, so there's been some progress.

Make no mistake however... when I have things in line and I'm confident I have a case, there will be blood over this. This dealership already half jacked us around once during the sales process (I don't want to go into detail as it will absolutely identify me if they see this), but this is the final nail in the coffin. I will be made whole when this is all said and done.

 

[edatoakrun]

Is the dealer denying that they represented to you that the pack was recently replaced, before you bought it?

...As of right now, the only way I know to "prove" the battery is bad is to get the test done by Nissan themselves...

The only way to find out if your pack is "bad" (to find if its available capacity is far less than "new") is to use an accurate external kWh meter to monitor the recharge capacity from a low charge level to "100%", and this itself is an imprecise measurement, due to the LBCs inability to allow a consistent charge % out of the total capacity.

 

[kuri]

Is the dealer denying that they represented to you that the pack was recently replaced?

So far, no but that's irrelevant. The times I've spoken with them, the sales guy has still maintained that they put a new pack in it. But when it comes to court, prove he said that without a recording or having it in writing. That's the entirety of my issue right now. I have nothing to prove it, and nothing prevents them from saying "nuh uh, we never said that!" if they're pushed on it. If that happens, I'm screwed.

 

[dhanson865]

Is the dealer denying that they represented to you that the pack was recently replaced?

So far, no but that's irrelevant. The times I've spoken with them, the sales guy has still maintained that they put a new pack in it. But when it comes to court, prove he said that without a recording or having it in writing. That's the entirety of my issue right now. I have nothing to prove it, and nothing prevents them from saying "nuh uh, we never said that!" if they're pushed on it. If that happens, I'm screwed.

With all due respect, if that happens that is only half the issue.

A court could ask them if they said that, they could deny it and it would have no bearing on you getting a free battery pack if the car drops to 8 bars before the warranty limits in months or miles.

So if Nissan gives you a new battery (presumably at a different dealership) without you having to go to court to get it; what other remedy to you want, expect, or deserve? I don't mean that glibly either. Only you know how they mistreated you, so you'll have to tell us what else.

Are you looking for the new battery plus monetary compensation? Are you looking for them to buy back the vehicle + monetary compensation? Do you have something else in mind?

 

[kuri]

There's a lot of "if" there and to be blunt, I'm not happy to wait until this fall or next summer to maybe get a new battery if it just happens to drop low enough before the cutoff date, and in the meantime be stuck with less than what I paid for. I won't tolerate that as an acceptable outcome. They lied about the car having a new pack (by deception, incompetence, or omission... I don't really care which) and used it specifically as a selling point to push me towards this specific car instead of the one I initially wanted, and they need to be held responsible for that.

If they replace the pack with a brand new one like I was told it had before I bought it, I won't be happy or ever be a repeat customer, but I'll accept it and walk away.

If they wanted me happy and willing to do business with Nissan ever again, they would replace it and give me a fresh 5 year / 60k warranty on the new pack from the date of installation. From what I've read, if it's really a new lizard pack, that should be absolutely no skin off anyone's nose anyway, but it would make me feel a hell of a lot more comfortable about buying a car and spending almost $4,000 on a 5 year extended warranty.

 

[mwalsh]

If they wanted me happy and willing to do business with Nissan ever again, they would replace it and give me a fresh 5 year / 60k warranty on the new pack from the date of installation.

That doesn't happen. At all. The length of the warranty on a new pack is ONLY the same as it would have been on the original pack that came with the car. So even if you DO get a new pack out of this, you would only have ~12,000 miles and a little over 1 year warranty on it.

You can try pushing for more, but I very much doubt you'll get what you're asking for above.

 

[tkdbrusco]

If I were you, I'd push for them to compensate you for the cost of a new pack ASAP! Even if you have to take them to court over it. You have enough details to prove that this is definitely not a new pack. The lowest any of the new lizard packs should read at this point is about 275 Gids, and that is in the worst of possible circumstances. You can't afford to wait for your pack to drop to <9 bars (however long that may take). Take them to court and try and get $6500 out of them for a new pack. If you win and then your car drops below 9 bars, you get your money and a new pack.

 

[keydiver]

I think he already has all the proof he needs that its not a new pack. Nissan Corporate has confirmed it multiple times.
As you have already surmised, the biggest problem going to court is that the salesman will say that he never told you it was a new pack. If you indeed paid a premium for this Leaf because it supposedly had a new battery, I'd be pissed off too! :x

 

[kuri]

Well, I just got off the phone with the dealer, and now they're saying "oh no, it never had a new pack put in it, but bring it in so we can look at it and see if we can fix it".

Just as I suspected, they lied their asses off, and now they're backtracking.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I find it hard to believe that a car dealer will be seen more favorably in court compared to the consumer.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I'd give them one option. Put a new pack in it ASAP and give me an extended warranty on the car for free. I don't care if they need to falsify the data to get the warranty done, or if they need to eat the cost of the battery right now. That would be my only option. I'd give them no more than 2 weeks to comply or I'd go public.

 

[keydiver]

The big question is whether to tip your hand that you know their tech did the BMS Reset. As we have discussed on here before, for a shop to do the BMS Reset is very comparable to turning back the odometer, but whether you want to say that is a tough decision. I guess you could threaten to subpoena the battery test records from Nissan, showing the actual cell state, and how it degraded over the years, EXCEPT I believe that you stated the car has never had the battery test! :roll:

 

[sergeyka]

The big question is whether to tip your hand that you know their tech did the BMS Reset. As we have discussed on here before, for a shop to do the BMS Reset is very comparable to turning back the odometer, but whether you want to say that is a tough decision. I guess you could threaten to subpoena the battery test records from Nissan, showing the actual cell state, and how it degraded over the years, EXCEPT I believe that you stated the car has never had the battery test! :roll:

Is it possible the BMS Reset was result of applying software update? This was discussed here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mwalsh]

Is it possible the BMS Reset was result of applying software update? This was discussed here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Done over a year ago:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=19811&start=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TickTock]

If the BMS was reset, you will be waiting six months for the bars to reflect it. Mine was reset twice in it's lifetime during visits to the dealership and you can see in the graph below how long it took for the bars to drop again (reset coincides with the SOH briefly showing 100%). Since the warranty explicitly states pack replacement is triggered based on bar status, I think it is going to be difficult to get the pack replaced until then (not to say that you shouldn't try).

 

[ishiyakazuo]

Wow, a 5 bar loser...
Maybe slightly off-topic, but I wonder if it would be cheaper to have the car shipped to Arizona to sit outside for awhile if you're close to losing your 4th bar but might not get there in the 60k miles...

 

[kuri]

If the BMS was reset, you will be waiting six months for the bars to reflect it. Mine was reset twice in it's lifetime during visits to the dealership and you can see in the graph below how long it took for the bars to drop again (reset coincides with the SOH briefly showing 100%). Since the warranty explicitly states pack replacement is triggered based on bar status, I think it is going to be difficult to get the pack replaced until then (not to say that you shouldn't try).

This right here is my entire concern. If it takes 6+ months for the bars to start reporting the correct values, then I'm stuck with a car that's nowhere near the performance and range that I thought it was when I bought it. I most certainly would NOT have bought it if the truth were known and it was reporting proper values.

 

[Slow1]

Read through this whole thread - interesting read. I too am very annoyed and concerned about mis-representation of what is being sold.

It seems that there are two avenues to take here:
1) If you could prove the dealer claimed a new battery was installed, you clearly can prove that it isn't new now so that would be worth going after. Unless you have something in writing or can get them to confirm the initial statement, you are unlikely to get anywhere on this one in court.

2) I believe that if you can prove the initial capacity bars when you decided to buy the vehicle were inflated (for any reason other than your own doing) and that in fact they are falling much faster than 'normal', then I believe you can make a case that the vehicle is not what you agreed to buy. I don't even believe you have to prove the dealer knew it was reset.

I would advise building a case on #2 - take dated pictures with ODO showing indicating the capacity bars. Even better if you can find a picture presented by the dealer when they listed it for sale (did they happen to put it up on any car sales sites to advertise? Did it have a picture of the panel showing full capacity bars?). Document each drop of the bars as they happen. Take THIS to Nissan corporate and ask for an explanation on how a vehicle could have all 12 (or even 11) bars when you bought it and suddenly lose so many in such a short time/driving distance. This forces the issue - either the battery capacity was mis-represented when sold OR the battery has suddenly gone defective; their choice on which story to go with but either way you have a case with them.

Key here is documentation that will hold up to review/examination. Present the facts, let THEM explain why it is what it is now. If you have the documentation, find a 'friendly' consumer investigator and suggest they do a story on how it is possible for used EV buyers to be scammed and offer your case as an example. I'm sure that with the evidence in hand it will make for interesting PR that the dealer and Nissan will not want.

In this case you may get more long term action (helping others avoid being scammed) from the 'court of public opinion' than from the legal courts and at a lower cost to you.

In the end you have to decide what you want here - Based on your statements I'm thinking you want A) the 'new' battery you expected and B) to keep others from having to face the same issues.

I think you can get there...

 

[pkulak]

I agree. Your best bet here is to prove it had 12 bars when you bought it. If you can't find a photo of it for sale (dealers have a compulsion to show the mileage on the dash, which will also show the bars even though they have no idea what those mean), you should really post more info here. I bet someone would be able to track down a photo archived somewhere.

 

[kuri]

I'm looking, but so far no luck. The sale page itself is gone of course. I don't think I've ever actually looked at that car's page on the dealer's site either, so it's not in my browser cache I don't think. They steered me towards this one after we got there and asked about the 2013 one we initially wanted.

I'll keep looking.