Bought a 2011 Leaf on 03/15/2015 with a "new pack", but...

[ishiyakazuo]

Google your VIN number. Sometimes they put the VIN up when it gets posted to Cars.com or similar, and that may be archived somewhere.

 

[kuri]

Google your VIN number. Sometimes they put the VIN up when it gets posted to Cars.com or similar, and that may be archived somewhere.

DUDE!!! YOU ARE AWESOME!!! I found a pic of the dash with all 12 bars.

THANK YOU

 

[ishiyakazuo]

Nice! Now archive that page off as printed PDF and save all of the individual images to your HDD if possible, in case there's something beyond the dash in the photos that makes it evident that it is indeed your car.

 

[kuri]

Nice! Now archive that page off as printed PDF and save all of the individual images to your HDD if possible, in case there's something beyond the dash in the photos that makes it evident that it is indeed your car.

Yup, saved the site and also used a service that provides legally admissible screenshots to get a capture of it.

 

[Slow1]

Great progress! That likely also shows the odometer I assume - and when title was transferred that should have been recorded as well. While not identical, they should be close enough to help establish that their picture was in fact of your car at that ODO reading.

How many bars is your car showing now? I'm sure you mentioned it somewhere in the thread... but in any case, as soon as it is down 2 bars you can ask "how does a car lose 2 capacity bars in X Months with only Y miles driven on it" - that should make your case right there.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

Great progress! That likely also shows the odometer I assume - and when title was transferred that should have been recorded as well. While not identical, they should be close enough to help establish that their picture was in fact of your car at that ODO reading.

How many bars is your car showing now? I'm sure you mentioned it somewhere in the thread... but in any case, as soon as it is down 2 bars you can ask "how does a car lose 2 capacity bars in X Months with only Y miles driven on it" - that should make your case right there.

Exactly what I was thinking. Once that second bar drops, you've got 'em.

 

[kuri]

Great progress! That likely also shows the odometer I assume - and when title was transferred that should have been recorded as well. While not identical, they should be close enough to help establish that their picture was in fact of your car at that ODO reading.

How many bars is your car showing now? I'm sure you mentioned it somewhere in the thread... but in any case, as soon as it is down 2 bars you can ask "how does a car lose 2 capacity bars in X Months with only Y miles driven on it" - that should make your case right there.

It isn't because the doors are open and it's showing the "open doors" thing on the display. The page however shows the mileage and VIN clear as day.

Right now it's lost 1 bar at approximately 2500 miles driven since we got it.

 

[Slow1]

Well, you need that 2nd bar drop to really make a case otherwise the argument will be made that "going from 12 to 11 has to happen some time, you just happened to be close to 11 when you got it". Showing how fast that 11 to 10 bar drop happens... that should be convincing.

Edit to add - did those web pages you found have anything indicating new battery written on them anywhere? That would be an awesome stroke of luck....

 

[ishiyakazuo]

Well, you need that 2nd bar drop to really make a case otherwise the argument will be made that "going from 12 to 11 has to happen some time, you just happened to be close to 11 when you got it". Showing how fast that 11 to 10 bar drop happens... that should be convincing.

Edit to add - did those web pages you found have anything indicating new battery written on them anywhere? That would be an awesome stroke of luck...

Yeah, that would be enough right there probably ("NEW BATTERY!" + 2500 miles to 1st bar drop). I'm reasonably sure they wouldn't say that in an ad though. Dealers are smarter than that. They'd rather put a picture of it with 12 bars and let your mind make the connection, and maybe verbalize it but not put it in writing.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

You know, it'd have been more damning if they had posted the pic of the dash with fewer bars than what you have now. That'd prove shenanigans right away, because you can prove that it's not a new battery by the loss of 1 bar. Oh well.

 

[kuri]

Unfortunately no such luck with the page saying anything about the battery. Just a basic miles and vin and copy/paste features list with a few pictures.

HOWEVER, I've just had a little different stroke of luck. Again, I don't want to go into a whole lot of detail, simply because I don't want to give anyone any ammunition for a bogus "defamation" case to throw back at me if this goes to court, but I have evidence that proves beyond a doubt that we were told multiple times at the time of purchase that the car had a new battery pack in it.

With this new evidence in hand, I'm discussing this with my partner to determine the next steps we want to take, whether it's just a nasty demand letter to the dealership and Nissan corporate, or if we just want to jump straight to court. I will absolutely keep this thread updated with any additional information.

 

[Slow1]

Naturally I'm very curious about what form this evidence comes in.

However, in any case I'd give them a chance to make it right first, more than one chance. Document each chance and then if you end up in front of a judge it will speak volumes to their handling of the situation.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

Well, regardless of whatever path you take, I hope things end up turning out well for you. Keep us posted if and when things are made right for you.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm going to guess that you have absolutely NOTHING in writing about a new battery.

If it's a "he said / she said", you will probably lose. The dealer just claims (under oath) over and over that the battery passed all relevant tests, is under FULL warranty, they will happily repair or replace under warranty if a problem pops up, but;

RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO PROBLEM

Just because a disgruntled customer posts pictures of our car displaying a perfectly good battery doesn't mean:

1) that the battery is bad
2) that we made the battery bad in any way

So, your honor, we're not quite sure why we were called to court. Batteries do wear out, which is why there is a warranty that we honor. The disgruntled customer "claims" that we said it has a new battery, when it fact this document from Nissan USA "proves" it does not.

They call to the witness stand a guy with a $1000 business who swears that the battery was never replaced, as indicated by Nissan USA company documents, and further that Nissan USA stands behind their product with a 5 year / 60,000 mile warranty for capacity. Clearly, this car does not meet that threshold. I'm not sure why I was called here, your honor.

You provide:

1) picture of dash showing good battery
2) hearsay that a new battery was installed (why would they do that when this one is clearly ok?)
3) some internet blather and a "hack device" you bought off the internet in an attempt to discredit automotive industry professionals wearing $1000 suits with a team of lawyers

 

[Slow1]

While I agree with you Tony on the point about the "new battery was installed" claim being a dead end, I do believe one SHOULD be able to make the case that the vehicle's capacity bars were in some way manipulated to support the sale of the vehicle.

Consider:
1) Advertising material describing the vehicle showed a picture with all 12 capacity bars (assuming the web pages are accepted as evidence)
2) Short time later in miles/time the capacity bars have dropped much faster than Nissan claims (losing say 2-3 bars in a couple months)

I would pose it more as a question to Nissan and the dealer to explain why the vehicle lost those capacity bars so quickly. I assume the vehicle had a decent amount of time/mileage before the sale. To go that amount of time/distance and still have all 12 bars then suddenly lose 2-3 bars is an anomaly that I think one SHOULD consider a defect in the vehicle so get Nissan to call it a warranty deal.

Now to OP - perhaps if you post the VIN here you may just be lucky enough to find the prior owner who may be willing to provide a statement of how many bars were on the vehicle when sold/returned.

The thing here is that while this is clearly a difficult case to prove due to ignorance across the board, IF the vehicle was in fact altered to get 12 bars then sold as a 12 bar vehicle that is fraud IMO. The trick in a court would be educating the judge on what 12 bars means and the implied value of the same.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

On the other hand, if the OP posts their VIN and this ends up in court, it could be a way to identify them and use things said in this thread (or elsewhere) against them. If the battery has really degraded significantly, it'll drop that second bar reasonably soon. Two bars in a short period of time is abnormal degradation, and the case is made without doing anything risky.

 

[timhebb]

I just found and read through this thread, and have to say that to me it represents the highest and best use of forums like these, leveraging the collective knowledge and wisdom of a community to help one of its members. I sympathize fully with the OP, and am proud of everyone who has contributed here to help. Of course, the situation remains unresolved, and an excruciatingly frustrating cliffhanger as of now...

One word to the OP: as a new member of the forum, just in case you have any doubts, TonyWilliams is on your side, and will be a formidable resource for you. It's just that his post could be read otherwise, while in fact he's operating as a convincing devil's advocate. You probably got that, but I just wanted to make it clear.

I am impatiently waiting the time when this dealer's identity can be disclosed and exposed to the public shaming it deserves. Let's keep supporting the OP's efforts to get justice until it happens, no matter how long it may take. I understand why he doesn't want to wait until the capacity bars fall further to try to rectify the situation; we are talking criminal behavior here. This dealer's punishment is, IMHO, not too far behind a fair outcome for the OP as a priority.

 

[kuri]

Apologies for the lack of reply. Got tied up with work stuff.

Regarding the "proof", I have a (fully legal) recording of the sales person admitting multiple times that yes, they did tell us it had a new battery pack installed, and that's what they were told by their boss. No, it's not "in writing", but it's going to be damned hard to argue the 2 conflicting recordings of one person saying it hasn't had the battery replaced and one person saying it has it if it comes to that. Especially with all of the other evidence I've collected showing that the car was represented as having a full life battery prior to sale.

I absolutely intend to release the name of the dealer and the recordings once this plays out. I've been bitten once before by having to file a suit against a company that I bought something from when they broke the contract. After having gone to a public forum trying to get them to do the right thing and honor the contract, then suing them after they refused, they then strong-armed me into dropping the suit simply by filing a defamation countersuit that they knew I didn't have the money to fight. I'm not opening myself up to that again.

I've already contacted the only other Leaf certified dealer in the area to get a quote for replacing the pack so I have documentation to back up any claims if I have to take it to court, I'm just waiting on them to get me the information.

 

[kuri]

On the other hand, if the OP posts their VIN and this ends up in court, it could be a way to identify them and use things said in this thread (or elsewhere) against them. If the battery has really degraded significantly, it'll drop that second bar reasonably soon. Two bars in a short period of time is abnormal degradation, and the case is made without doing anything risky.

As a point of note, my VIN is already in all of the LeafSpy screenshots I've posted, so if they *really* wanted to track me down, they could. That's not sufficient evidence to claim I'm badmouthing *them* though, as I've never once mentioned their name and have very clearly gone out of my way to avoid doing so.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

On the other hand, if the OP posts their VIN and this ends up in court, it could be a way to identify them and use things said in this thread (or elsewhere) against them. If the battery has really degraded significantly, it'll drop that second bar reasonably soon. Two bars in a short period of time is abnormal degradation, and the case is made without doing anything risky.

As a point of note, my VIN is already in all of the LeafSpy screenshots I've posted, so if they *really* wanted to track me down, they could. That's not sufficient evidence to claim I'm badmouthing *them* though, as I've never once mentioned their name and have very clearly gone out of my way to avoid doing so.

Fair enough... hard to search inside the images for the VIN