Battery Replacement Program Details

[GregH]

Perhaps, but I read it to mean that you can only get a new battery when it falls below 9 bars regardless of when you enter the program, not that you can enter the program and immediately give your pack back and get a new 12 bar one...

The way I read this is that Nissan now allows you to give back your pack at any time and enter their "lease the battery" program.

I'm guessing when the program is setup you could opt in any time. If you bought the Leaf then you OWN the original battery. I don't know what Nissan would offer to take it off your hands if you enter the lease program. You'd only get a 3rd battery pack (2nd within the lease) if the first (within the lease.. ie your second) pack fell below 9 bars.

 

[GregH]

Come to think of it.. I wouldn't be surprised if this lease option weren't offered on new 2014 or 2015 Leafs.. Buy the car and lease the battery..

 

[evchels]

are you saying that the advisory claque just applauded...??

Actually, the group's questions and comments were along the lines of what has been said here. We were able to clarify the following on a preview call yesterday (most of which has been said by Brian Brockman here in some form):

- You can opt in at any time, and at any condition of your original pack. No need to wait until the capacity warranty expires, nor to opt in as soon as it does. It's also open to second owners who buy a used LEAF and then choose to opt in.

- Nissan does keep/recycle your original pack. There was no mention of a value paid to the vehicle owner, and it's a fair question. It could be factored into the program price of ~$100 (as opposed to something higher), but it would be good to see this question addressed. I agree that even if degraded, the pack you're giving up has value.

- The pack installed when you opt in to this program may be new, or may be remanned- but it will be a full-capacity, 12-bar pack. (Reality is, however, that there are no used packs yet, so early participants will get brand spankin' new stuff.) After that, the same "9-bar" capacity warranty kicks in, and any further pack replacements will be done on those terms. No guarantee that every future battery will be backwards compatible, but that's the goal- and Nissan is fully aware that this is important to current drivers.

- We, too, asked about options for those who want a higher capacity guarantee, even if at a higher monthly payment. It sounded as if they hadn't anticipated the question- so I wouldn't say the answer is necessarily "no", but they hadn't considered it. We strongly encouraged them to do so.

- There will be mileage limits, though no details yet. As in Europe, it is expected that the exact payment will depend on the mileage scheme chosen by the vehicle owner.

- There's no minimum term of participation, nor max. But Nissan does own your new pack. When you (or subsequent owner) chooses to stop paying the monthly fee, Nissan repossesses that pack. (No description of that exact process, though yes, we've asked.)

- In its current form, this is more of a battery rental than a lease. The latter implies a buy-out option at some point, and the current program exists in perpetuity. This point received the most concern from the adv board as well, and as the program doesn't seem to be fully baked, it would be nice to see this point reconsidered before the final details are announced.

- We raised similar concerns about how this would affect resale value.

- We've also asked whether there's any chance the monthly payment will be raised after someone has opted into the program, presumably as battery technology improves.

- Lastly, "every effort" will be made to ensure there are no additional dealer/labor costs. Nissan will manage this with individual dealers, I assume in a manner similar to which warranty repairs are currently handled.

 

[Stoaty]

There's no minimum term of participation, nor max. But Nissan does own your new pack. When you (or subsequent owner) chooses to stop paying the monthly fee, Nissan repossesses that pack. (No description of that exact process, though yes, we've asked.)

So once you opt in, the only way you can opt out is to junk your Leaf (it won't have a battery). There needs to be some kind of exit strategy... like giving you back a pack that is at the same level as when you entered the program (probably around 8 bars for most).

 

[TomT]

So, if a lease had, say, a year to run, and the owner wanted a new 12 bar pack because his old one is now at 9 or 10 bars and no longer has the range he needs, he could invoke the new program, get a new 12 bar battery, and then pay $100 a month for 12 months at which point he turns in the leased vehicle to Nissan and walks away... Did I get that right?

The question then becomes, what happens with the next owner of the vehicle when Nissan resells it???

(Or, alternately, he could QC and 100% charge the crap out of it, park it in hot locations constantly, leave it at 100% for extended periods, get it down to 8 bars, and invoke the warranty... :lol: )

- The pack installed when you opt in to this program may be new, or may be remanned- but it will be a full-capacity, 12-bar pack.
- There's no minimum term of participation, nor max. But Nissan does own your new pack. When you (or subsequent owner) chooses to stop paying the monthly fee, Nissan repossesses that pack. (No description of that exact process, though yes, we've asked.)

 

[rickbecker]

All I want to know is HOW MUCH IT WOULD COST ME TO REPLACE MY PACK WITH A FULL CAPACITY PACK TODAY!! Knowing that cost would allow me to make plans for my EV future.

I bought my LEAF and doubt that I would ever enter into a battery lease such as that being proposed.

 

[ericsf]

But Nissan does own your new pack. When you (or subsequent owner) chooses to stop paying the monthly fee, Nissan repossesses that pack.

That was the ah ah moment for me. You can join in at any time and with a battery in any shape simply because you get a new one the moment you opt in and have to continue to pay to keep it. I like do like this plan now that I understand it. I don't care oh much the pack really costs. All I wanted was to be able to get back to 12 bars when I wanted to. 100$ / month for that seem very fair.

 

[evchels]

So, if a lease had, say, a year to run and the owner wanted a new 12 bar pack, he could invoke the new program, get a new 12 bar battery, and then pay $100 a month for 12 months at which point he turns in the leased vehicle to Nissan and walks away... Did I get that right?

I would interpret it that way based on what's been said so far- though leases haven't been specifically addressed. However, I will add it as a specific question on our list if Brian doesn't clarify here. Additionally, the residual value of a leased car is based on the whole car...so if a lessee opted to buy the car out, it raises the question of whether the residual value is adjusted downwards, or the rental program fee is terminated upon buyout.

 

[GreenPowerDP]

- Nissan does keep/recycle your original pack. There was no mention of a value paid to the vehicle owner, and it's a fair question. It could be factored into the program price of ~$100 (as opposed to something higher), but it would be good to see this question addressed. I agree that even if degraded, the pack you're giving up has value.

[...]

- In its current form, this is more of a battery rental than a lease. The latter implies a buy-out option at some point, and the current program exists in perpetuity. This point received the most concern from the adv board as well, and as the program doesn't seem to be fully baked, it would be nice to see this point reconsidered before the final details are announced.

Thanks for clearing up these key points.

 

[shrink]

- There will be mileage limits

Mileage limits on a car that a person (not a bank) owns and has presumably paid off?

I don't think I've ever heard of that in the history of car ownership.

 

[mksE55]

- There will be mileage limits

Mileage limits on a car that a person (not a bank) owns and has presumably paid off?

I don't think I've ever heard of that in the history of car ownership.

Welcome to your NEW Nissan Leaf. seems like a taxi service that you have to drive yourself around.

 

[evchels]

- There will be mileage limits

Mileage limits on a car that a person (not a bank) owns and has presumably paid off?

Nope. Mileage limits on the 2nd battery you're renting from Nissan. (But yes, I hear you...)

 

[GregH]

But Nissan does own your new pack. When you (or subsequent owner) chooses to stop paying the monthly fee, Nissan repossesses that pack.

That was the ah ah moment for me. You can join in at any time and with a battery in any shape simply because you get a new one the moment you opt in and have to continue to pay to keep it. I like do like this plan now that I understand it. I don't care oh much the pack really costs. All I wanted was to be able to get back to 12 bars when I wanted to. 100$ / month for that seem very fair.

Hmmm.. Under the lease errr. rental plan if your new pack drops below 9 bars they'll replace it with a 3rd pack. But what if you just don't like your 11 bar slightly degraded rental pack? Can you say "I opt out of this program! Take this battery off my hands!" then opt back in with another new pack at $100/mo?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Several folks have mentioned that there are battery leases in Europe. Are these questions answered in the details of those leases?

If in Europe, you buy a Leaf and lease the battery. What happens at the end of the battery lease with the car you purchased?

 

[evnow]

So, if a lease had, say, a year to run and the owner wanted a new 12 bar pack, he could invoke the new program, get a new 12 bar battery, and then pay $100 a month for 12 months at which point he turns in the leased vehicle to Nissan and walks away... Did I get that right?

I would interpret it that way based on what's been said so far- though leases haven't been specifically addressed. However, I will add it as a specific question on our list if Brian doesn't clarify here. Additionally, the residual value of a leased car is based on the whole car...so if a lessee opted to buy the car out, it raises the question of whether the residual value is adjusted downwards, or the rental program fee is terminated upon buyout.

I'd guess if I'm leasing the car I can't get into this program. Afterall, I don't own the car.

This program is really for those folks who for some reason or the other decided to buy the car.

 

[thankyouOB]

one of the things that is so unfortunate and so intolerable about today's society is that corporations today are like vampires, they all want to not only put a hand in your pocket but they want a permanent pass into your bank every month.
it is a huge grift.
over at wall street, it is all about the grift. sure--401k and they win even if you lose with fees, and fees, and other fees.
ditto the bank.

that was one of the grand things about the LEAF, getting away from gasoline and the bandits in texas and arabia and corporate board rooms at exxon, et al. you could put solar on your roof or just be happy paying a utility; maybe even a muni utility as in LA.
now, nissan wants to turn owning a leaf into a lifetime monthly tithing, a permanent pass into my bank account.
i say no and a very loud no.

 

[evnow]

All I want to know is HOW MUCH IT WOULD COST ME TO REPLACE MY PACK WITH A FULL CAPACITY PACK TODAY!! Knowing that cost would allow me to make plans for my EV future.

I bought my LEAF and doubt that I would ever enter into a battery lease such as that being proposed.

You know, shouting isn't a nice thing.

No manufacturer tells you the price of the battery, including Tesla. It would be nice if Nissan did - but they have decided not to (I'd guess for competitive reasons).

 

[thankyouOB]

Welcome to your NEW Nissan Leaf. seems like a taxi service that you have to drive yourself around.

perfect.

 

[GRA]

As someone who has been an advocate of offering battery leasing/renting to get the car's purchase price down for a couple of years, I'm glad to see that Nissan is now going to offer it. But we really need clarification for new purchasers/lessors on whether or not the federal tax credit still applies if the battery is rented, as that was supposedly the reason this wasn't offered in the U.S. from the get-go.

That being said, as the vehement objections should make clear not everyone wants to rent a battery. And only warrantying the battery at 70% isn't going to cut it, when Smart is offering 80%. If they're going to stick to 70% as the basic warranty, then Nissan MUST also offer rental plans that offer replacement at higher capacities, at least 80% for the people who need it, at least until battery capacities have increased considerably. Smart is charging $80/month for 17.6kWh, so scaling up proportionally, Nissan should be charging $109.10/month for their 24kWh battery - call it $110.

Finally, I've got to give Nissan zero points (negative points would be more appropriate) as far as honesty. People made it crystal clear that they were asking for a battery price. Nissan said repeatedly that they would announce a battery price, so they can't blame miscommunication. Instead, Nissan pulls a bait and switch and announces something totally different. Regardless of the inherent value of this other offering (which is welcome and IMO overdue), it represents yet another example of Nissan out and out lying to its customers re its batteries.

ISN'T THERE A SINGLE PERSON IN ALL OF NISSAN CORPORATE CAPABLE OF GIVING A STRAIGHT, HONEST ANSWER TO A SIMPLE QUESTION?

[Edit: Shouting may not be a nice thing, but compared to lying it rates far down on my scale of things not done. And sometimes shouting is the most appropriate mode of expression]

At this point the answer appears to be 'No'. I'm so glad I didn't buy or lease one of these cars, because I trust Nissan about as far as I trusted Tricky Dick in his heyday.

 

[evnow]

now, nissan wants to turn owning a leaf into a lifetime monthly tithing, a permanent pass into my bank account.
i say no and a very loud no.

Reality is that running a car costs money. It is just a question of whether you want to pay upfront or as you go.

I'm afraid a lot of people never thought about the depreciation of the battery. Now we have a figure for that depreciation - $100/month.

We can now calculate TCO properly and compare to ICE.