80% Charge only 9 bars?

[TickTock]

Last time I got 10 bars for my daily 80% was 5/19/2012. Exactly one day before losing the 12 capacity bar. Been seeing 9 ever since.

 

[smkettner]

Mine was back to 10 this morning after 80% using end timer. Initial range was back to normal also.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

For sure GID is much better predictor of changes but constant 9 and 80 was observed by good number here. smkettner don't allow 9 to come back. mkjayakumar one time is not good indication of anything IMO, please report if continue for a week or so. Your GID if I am correct was 262 a month ago. 7TB also in OKC

 

[mkjayakumar]

Yes 262, and also I charge only through 110V, as I don't have an L2 EVSE installed yet.

As far range, I feel that I still have the same range as I had when I picked it up in March, but then now with AC running non-stop it is hard to tell.

 

[shay]

I was happening to me. I am not sure when it started, but I noticed it on Monday. I charged to 100% and ran the A/C for a while. I am glad Ingineer suggested that solution. My car is charging to 10 bars again.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Shay, what was your GID @ 80% with 9 capacity bars and now with 10 bars, did change much?

 

[shay]

Shay, what was your GID @ 80% with 9 capacity bars and now with 10 bars, did change much?

208 Gids now. I did not measure it before I did the 100% charge.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Shay so your 100% GID will be very similar to tzzhc4 about 254. i think your 9 bars will not come back anytime soon but keep us informed. As always protecting from heat is very good idea. We not that far concerning distance as well ambient temp. My car still at full battery capacity will see what will happen after heat is gone, just 3 mo from now.

 

[kennyboy]

Started getting 9 bars with 80% charge yesterday (END TIMER set to end right before I depart for work). It happened again this morning.

I will try charging to 100% and letting the cells balance for ~4 hours and then drive some of that off in the morning and see what the 80% charges do after that.

I live in Tennessee. Got my LEAF in October 2011 and have 14,000 miles on it right now.


[edited to add this information]

I've never seen anything above 6 temperature bars.

I spent last Winter @ 5 bars, occasionally dipping to 4.

I've spent this entire Summer @ 6 bars, dipping back down to 5 a few times if I skipped a day of driving.

My LEAF spends most of its time parked in my garage, which is climate controlled and cool in the Summer time.

It spends 8 hours a day parked at work, usually in direct sunlight. My LEAF is white and I usually use one of those reflective windshield things that reflect the sunlight back to attempt to keep the cabin as cool as possible in direct sunlight.

Again, I've never seen anything over 6 temp bars.

I only charge to 80% now (with an end timer).

If I arrive home with less than 50%, I usually do charge a small amount immediately to get to 50% before going back on the timer, to make sure that I have enough charge to make it to work the next morning in case the power were to go out overnight and I was unable to finish the charging to 80% on the end timer.

I used to occasionally charge to 100% when I first got the car, but it was always with an end timer with the charging ending an hour or less before my departure.

I finally figured out 80% was sufficient.

I've probably charged to 100% (with an end timer and prompt departure) less than 50 times.

It has NEVER been charged to 100% and sat for more than an hour.

 

[JPWhite]

Started getting 9 bars with 80% charge yesterday (END TIMER set to end right before I depart for work). It happened again this morning.

I will try charging to 100% and letting the cells balance for ~4 hours and then drive some of that off in the morning and see what the 80% charges do after that.

I live in Tennessee. Got my LEAF in October 2011 and have 14,000 miles on it right now.

I got mine at end of July last year and have 13,500 miles, so am a few months ahead of you but a few miles behind. I have found if I initiate a charge the following morning when at 9 bars, the 10th bar is lit up within 1-2 minutes of the charge override starting. The 10th bar is only just not available.

Here are the dates I have had 9 bar charges.

Date Gap (days)
6/9/2012
6/24/2012 15
6/29/2012 5
7/7/2012 8
7/13/2012 6
7/15/2012 2
7/17/2012 2
7/20/2012 3
7/25/2012 5
7/27/2012 2

Averaging every 5 days, more recent its every 2-3 days.

Let's hope we are both a long way from being the first to lose a capacity bar in Tennessee.

Update for Temperature and Charging Practice Info

I started charging to 80% almost immediately after getting the car. At first I'd have it charge to 100% on Friday and Saturday nights to cover weekend trips, but soon discovered I rarely needed it. Gave that practice up within 6 weeks of getting the car and have charged to 80% almost exclusively ever since.

Last year I saw 7 temp bars about 3 times. This year I've seen it twice. Typically I see this after a charge cycle or interstate driving.

I don't have a cooled garage, so it can still be 90 at midnight even with the garage doors open to let it cool. This year I saw the temp at my house reach 112 during the heatwave. Now we are back to regular TN temps. Mid to high 90's with high 70's as a low. Can still be low 80's at 3-4am.

Never used an end timer, I used to plug-in when I got home, now I wait until I retire for the evening to plug it in. If I need to recharge for an evening trip I wait for a carwings email plug-in reminder (30 minute delay after arriving home) if appropriate. I could manage an end-timer OK, but my wife would be frustrated plugging in and realizing 2 hours later nothing happened. This would be bad especially if she takes a trip. I don't want to complicate the charging process and have to rely on pressing the timer override to start a charge during the daytime.

During a body repair last year the car got inadvertently charged to 100% instead of 80% and sat like that for 4 days. At least during the majority of the body repair it sat at 2 or 3 bars for two weeks straight. At least it was winter and bitterly cold.

I've QC'd about 5 times total. Never more than once in a single day.

 

[edatoakrun]

Started getting 9 bars with 80% charge yesterday (END TIMER set to end right before I depart for work). It happened again this morning.

I will try charging to 100% and letting the cells balance for ~4 hours and then drive some of that off in the morning and see what the 80% charges do after that.

I live in Tennessee. Got my LEAF in October 2011 and have 14,000 miles on it right now.

I got mine at end of July last year and have 13,500 miles, so am a few months ahead of you but a few miles behind. I have found if I initiate a charge the following morning when at 9 bars, the 10th bar is lit up within 1-2 minutes of the charge override starting. The 10th bar is only just not available.

Here are the dates I have had 9 bar charges.

Date Gap (days)
6/9/2012
6/24/2012 15
6/29/2012 5
7/7/2012 8
7/13/2012 6
7/15/2012 2
7/17/2012 2
7/20/2012 3
7/25/2012 5
7/27/2012 2

Averaging every 5 days, more recent its every 2-3 days.

Let's hope we are both a long way from being the first to lose a capacity bar in Tennessee.

IMO, In addition to delivery date and miles, it would be helpful if all LEAF drivers would give an idea of the ambient and/or battery temperature history, and amount of time spent at 100% charge level, when discussing battery capacity.

Could you please add to your comments?

 

[kennyboy]

edited my original post to add temp and charge level info

 

[JPWhite]

edited my original post to add temp and charge level info

Ditto

 

[csriram45]

Even though I am still getting 10 bars. I lose it after driving just 1 mile. I am also losing bar faster than usual while driving. Is this something I should be concerned. 13,500 miles purchases apr 2011. Sf bay area

 

[planet4ever]

We have seen a number of anecdotal accounts of people seeing 9 bars at 80% more and more frequently, and then losing a capacity bar, but I haven't seen any scientifically supportable evidence of a correlation, nor any theory as to why that should happen. There are a number of unknown variables here, but let me throw out a few thoughts.

Phil tells us that an 80% charge is really to 80% of total current battery capacity, not 80% of original capacity or 80% of usable range or 80% of the upper limit allowed. (See the Ingineer posts on page 3 of this thread.) We also know that the number of charge bars shown, though a calculated, adjusted, and perhaps fudged value, is based on the current battery capacity, not the original capacity. The Service Manual devotes three full pages of illustrations to convincing technicians that displaying 12 available charge bars is normal, even when the battery is down to 50% of original capacity.

So, a timer-controlled 80% charge will end up with proportionally less energy in the battery as the battery ages, and each bar will represent proportionally less energy as the battery ages. Why should we expect any differences in the number of bars at an 80% charge for a degraded battery? It might help to look at Phil's second post referenced above.

SOC means state of charge, not State of Capacity, so it's showing you how much charge is in the total capacity. It never goes to 100% and never goes to zero either. (typically 2% -95%)
<snip>
Because the SOC when "fully" charged seems to vary a lot (I've seen 93-96% so far)...

Put differently, usable capacity is typically 93% of total capacity, but that 93% is not a hard constant, probably bouncing around primarily because of inaccuracies in the measurements the battery ECU is making. What I suspect is that Phil may not yet have been able to measure whether there is an upward or downward trend in that percentage as the battery ages. Consider the possibility that the ECU might always "wall off" some constant number of watt hours from the usable range. This would cause the usable range to shrink more rapidly than the 80% number. The kWh value of the bars would presumably also shrink faster than the 80% number, yielding a possible explanation for the 9-bar phenomenon.

Note: I'm not saying that, or anything like that, is what is happening. I'm just digging around for possible explanations for something that I initially dismissed as coincidental.

Ray

 

[JPWhite]

Even though I am still getting 10 bars. I lose it after driving just 1 mile. I am also losing bar faster than usual while driving. Is this something I should be concerned. 13,500 miles purchases apr 2011. Sf bay area

What this tells me is that 10th bar you are getting is not totally 'full' so you get a limited range from it. I would suspect you are gravitating towards getting a 9 bar 80% charge but aren't there yet.

I have found that if I get a 9-bar 80% charge the 10th bar will light up with 1-2 minutes of charging, so my 10th bar is not totally empty but not full enough to illuminate it. I have also observed that after 30 minutes of pre-conditioning the 11th bar has energy in it but not enough to illuminate it, often I can travel 10+ miles on the 10th bar, simply because I may have had 50% of the 11th bar available but not lit.

As others have posted what this means is uncertain. A direct link between 9-bar 80% charges and imminent capacity bar loss is not a 'for sure' thing. But I think it reasonable to suspect that the instrumentation will occasionally re-calibrate the fuel bars to represent less total energy. I suspect that in between calibrations we see this not quite charged representation on the dash as the battery degrades.

Capacity bar losers have observed this 9-bar phenomena prior to the capacity bars extinguishing. I think this phenomena can be considered a canary in the capacity bar mine. Some have postulated that AZ owners lose 1% per week during the height of summer temps, so for us in slightly cooler climates, our loss maybe slower and the time between the canary call and a capacity bar loss maybe much longer, maybe even spanning two summers.

We'll find out soon enough.

 

[cash4solar]

I think I just set a record. Not a good one either. I bought a new 2011 SL Leaf with QC in May of this year. I now have only 3,000 miles on it but yesterday and today, I got only 9 bars on on the dash when I charged to 80 percent. I have been taking very good care of this car. I leave it out at night to cool down. I only charge to 80 percent and have only charged to 100 percent one time. I drive slowly almost everywhere I go, I have 5.4 on the dash and I live up a 3 mile hill. The weather has been mild for this time of year. Low 90's upper 80 for highs and 60's for lows. I hope this is nothing to be worried about. I want this car to last forever. I bought it to save money over the long run. I just hope that the long run turns out to be long. I guess I will try 100 percent tonight and see what happens. The car was delivered to the dealer I bought it from in Nov. of last year and sat on the lot for about 6 months but, when I test drove it. It was not near 100 percent charged when I found it on the lot so, I don't think it was sitting at full charge at all since it only had 15 miles on it.

Good luck to everyone with this problem.

 

[edatoakrun]

I think I just set a record. Not a good one either. I bought a new 2011 SL Leaf with QC in May of this year. I now have only 3,000 miles on it but yesterday and today, I got only 9 bars on on the dash when I charged to 80 percent. ..The car was delivered to the dealer I bought it from in Nov. of last year and sat on the lot for about 6 months but, when I test drove it, it was not near 100 percent charged so, I don't think it was sitting at full charge since it only had 15 miles on it...

I wouldn't count on that, if I were you.

The LEAF will lose charge at a slow rate, while parked. Who knows what the charge and temperature history of your car was during those 6 months?

What is your LEAFs production month on the driver's door jamb, and the last 6 digits of your VIN?

If you lose a capacity bar prematurely, I would suggest that you definitely document it with a complaint/inspection by Nissan.

 

[Stanton]

I have seen some "9 bar 80% charges" recently, but they're always followed up by a "10 bar 80% charge" day. However, there's definitely some heat/temp related phenomena, and like a previous poster suggested, I don't see a steady pattern of reliable data. In fact, when I recently did a 100% on a (relatively speaking for Dallas) cool night, I saw more capacity/bars (subjective) than I had seen in days if not weeks. So until I officially lose a capacity bar, I'm not convinced that the BMS isn't doing something to protect the battery--affecting charging capacity--that's obviously heat related. I suspect I'm getting close to such an event, but there's big difference between it happening in August (we're almost there) or say October, when temps will be headed down.

 

[Herm]

The car was delivered to the dealer I bought it from in Nov. of last year and sat on the lot for about 6 months but, when I test drove it.

At least is was over the winter months, so you know the battery was not overheated. Assuming the lot was not in Phoenix.