80% Charge only 9 bars?

[cash4solar]

Strange thing happened today. Last night I charged to 100 percent, as some here suggested. I drove the Leaf around until the dash got back down to 9 bars. Then I charged the car again last night, just to see if I could get the elusive 10th bar to show itself but, it did not comply. So, this morning, just as I was coming to terms with the loss of my beloved 1 bar, I got into my Leaf, still at 9 bars, and began driving. Then the most peculiar thing happened. After about 2 tenths of a mile, I looked down and there it was, my 10th bar had come back to me. I don't know what the heck is going on but, I am glad it is back. Ha.

My Leaf number is 8614 and I bought it in El Paso at the beginning of May. From Nov. to May the temps never went much above 90 down there. That is the time frame of when they had it. I don't think they knew what they were doing with it so, maybe it was at full charge and it just drained but, I don't think Nissan sends them that way and I don't think they even bothered to charge it. Remember it only had 15 miles on it. I will say this though, if I lose a capacity bar before 30 K, Nissan will hear about it. Albuquerque is mild compared to most places in Arizona and Texas. In fact the summer is similar to Sacramento. Maybe a little colder during the day and a little warmer at night. Also, My wife drives a 2011 Nissan Altima so, I am a good customer. Maybe that will give me a little leverage in case I ever need it. I do plan on driving this thing forever, even if the batteries slowly fail, I will replace them. From what I understand, electric motors can go up to 250k with no problem and other than the batteries, there aren't a lot of things that can go wrong with the vehicle. Maybe when we need them, batteries will only be 3 or 4K.

Thanks everyone for responding and good luck with your leafs..

 

[Stanton]

I will say this though, if I lose a capacity bar before 30 K, Nissan will hear about it. Albuquerque is mild compared to most places in Arizona and Texas.

If that was your expectation when you bought the Leaf, then prepare to be disappointed--not to mention you (and I) live in a "hot" zone (Texas). While I wouldn't be happy with what's going on in Arizona, I'm beginning to think that some folk's expectations really are unreasonable with this car. They seem to forget all the positives about it (like NO gas, NO maintenance) and focus on the negatives. What we're finding is that a bit more care needs to be taken with respect to charging/storage/etc., and that's not an unreasonable thing to ask given the benefits (like not funding OPEC).

 

[edatoakrun]

My reply

Strange thing happened today. Last night I charged to 100 percent, as some here suggested. I drove the Leaf around until the dash got back down to 9 bars. Then I charged the car again last night, just to see if I could get the elusive 10th bar to show itself but, it did not comply. So, this morning, just as I was coming to terms with the loss of my beloved 1 bar, I got into my Leaf, still at 9 bars, and began driving. Then the most peculiar thing happened. After about 2 tenths of a mile, I looked down and there it was, my 10th bar had come back to me. I don't know what the heck is going on but, I am glad it is back. Ha.

Charge bars do weird things. I have only seen a couple of bar "reincarnations" on my LEAF (except when charging with a long descent) since I got it, though.

My Leaf number is 8614 and I bought it in El Paso at the beginning of May...

Looking here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AptkktKEhdz9dGhheXpqT09naFdkYjN4aXJ4NlNPV3c&authkey=CJm01I8B&hl=en&authkey=CJm01I8B#gid=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect your Car's build date, was about September 2011? So it was somewhere, at some state of charge, at some temperature, for about 8 months before you got it. That's why I suggested you report to Nissan if you get premature capacity bar loss, as even though it was "new" when you bought it, the previous history might be a factor in your battery longevity, and Nissan might consider this pertinent to any adjustment.

I do plan on driving this thing forever, even if the batteries slowly fail, I will replace them. From what I understand, electric motors can go up to 250k with no problem and other than the batteries, there aren't a lot of things that can go wrong with the vehicle. Maybe when we need them, batteries will only be 3 or 4K....

I think one of the best moves Nissan could make to slow the "battery degradation" FUD is announce a replacement battery cost, and trade-in values for un-abused battery packs. But I don't think that price is likely be as low as $4k, for many years.

As long as the anticipated cost of battery replacement + kWh use for a LEAF, works out to be far lower than the cost of gasoline + increased ICEV maintenance, over the long run, as I expect it to be, LEAF buyers (and LEAF sales) should do fine.

 

[Herm]

As long as the anticipated cost of battery replacement + kWh use for a LEAF, works out to be far lower than the cost of gasoline + increased ICEV maintenance, over the long run, as I expect it to be, LEAF buyers (and LEAF sales) should do fine.

Right now is about equivalent to driving a car that averages 30mpg for 100k miles, so battery prices have to drop by half I would think. Nissan might have to eat the replacement cost this first go around.. or perhaps have a battery pre-purchase plan like Tesla does. It does not look like gas will go up for a few years yet with all the new production that is coming on line.

 

[thankyouOB]

here is a remarkable tidbit about the LACK of knowledge at Nissan dealerships about the car.

Recall, I had a rear-ending accident.
The pack was at about 6 bars when it happened; so no worries about storage.
The pack was removed and stored -- for welding and painting -- then reinstalled.
I told the dealership -- while they were charging it the day it was reinstalled -- to NOT charge to 100%, and why -- before it went back to the collision center for final repairs and installation of gaskets, finish work.
The lead service guy said OK, but it was news to him about the benefit of not charging and storing it at 100%.

This was at a very major Nissan dealership in south LA County.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I will say this though, if I lose a capacity bar before 30 K, Nissan will hear about it. Albuquerque is mild compared to most places in Arizona and Texas.

and i am sure they will listen, but dont expect a lot of action. if you look at the "generalized" guideline they gave we "should" look at it as a best case scenario, not worst. in all likelihood, its probably a "medium" case.

but if you have 20% after 5 year, 30% after 10 that would imply faster degradation initially then a relatively constant rate after the "break in" period. do the math; we "assume" about 12% the first year, 2% after that. now this is a medium remember so you could have a margin of error of 2-3% or so.

in warranty terms a year is equated to be 12,000 miles. now how that came about? well, anyway. so 30,000 miles should see a medium (3 years "wear") of 16% degradation +/- the error so it could be as little as 12% or as much as say 20%.

now Nissan gave you a laundry list of possible scenarios that could accelerate these #'s. they were smart enough to not prioritize them in order of "badness" so as not to prejudice sales in "certain" areas.

now, its relatively accepted that Li in general thrives with us. we comfortable, Li comfortable. standard info says over 30ºC (86F) we sweat, Li sweat.

now, is it "heat stroke" time or is it just uncomfortable. well, Li chemistry Nissan uses can be tweaked for power storage or heat resistance. guessing they did a bit of both. (to me they are related so one should improve the other but...)

so, Nissan says "dont bask in 120 F (nearly 50C) for more than 24 hours which would imply that Li is now in "heat stroke" range. problem with that is ambient air temps in concrete laden cities means that you only need to be in the high 90's to reach that temperature. push it into the low 100's and you can maintain that temp for hours after the air temp has subsided.

so, now we come to Phoenix where the air temp really aint that far from the 120F "redline" so its very conceivable during a 110 stretch that the LEAF could be over 120 with a teeny bit of charging for a few days or more.

now, in your case; you will see temps above the 30C mark. you only need to be charging a bit when temps are in the 80's for that. so that will "accelerate" the degradation but may only add up to a few % over 10,000-20,000 miles.

**edited for clarity...or typing errors, or stupidity, or...**

 

[edatoakrun]

="Herm"

As long as the anticipated cost of battery replacement + kWh use for a LEAF, works out to be far lower than the cost of gasoline + increased ICEV maintenance, over the long run, as I expect it to be, LEAF buyers (and LEAF sales) should do fine.

Right now is about equivalent to driving a car that averages 30mpg for 100k miles...

That would be my best guess right now also, though future gas prices give ICEVs far larger cost variability, on both the upside and downside.

But this is true only if you don't have costs to replace the ICE's head gasket, transmission, exhaust system, catalytic converter, water pump, radiator, etc, in the first 100 k miles.

However, since the chances of the ICE owner not having any of these expenses over the next 100 k miles, and the 100k miles after that, will, IMO make the BEV far less expensive, over the life of the vehicle.

="Herm ...so battery prices have to drop by half I would think. Nissan might have to eat the replacement cost this first go around.. or perhaps have a battery pre-purchase plan like Tesla does. It does not look like gas will go up for a few years yet with all the new production that is coming on line.

The point is, if Nissan announces a replacement price now, say at the anticipated lower 2015 cost, very few LEAF buyers would be likely to take them up on the offer, so Nissan would not "eat" very much.

I would expect, that even LEAF owners who need "12 capacity bar" range, would more likely sell their cars to others who do not need that much range, and just buy new (or less-used) BEVs with the required range, rather than replace the battery.

Buyers for those cars with reduced capacity, would be relieved of "replacement cost anxiety", knowing what it would cost to actually increase their capacity and range in the future, when and if they might need to.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

its too early to announce prices. too much changes but am guessing Nissan will have a "sweetheart" pricing for people within the 5 year time frame who want a new battery pack.

**suspension of reality warning**


an example; replacement pack (within first 5yr or 60,000 miles) $6,000 prorated at $1200 a year. so supposing you have 20,000 miles after 12 months and you want a new pack. it would cost you your old pack in exchange plus $2400 (2 years@1200 a year. same price for someone who had their LEAF 20 months and had 10,000 miles)

guessing a small labor fee would be included if the pack was within "accepted" degradation parameters (let me know i can make up a chart for you...ok then!! say 12% first year, 2% each additional year + 2% for bad habits... so a 2 year degradation would be 16%) and no labor if pack is outside acceptable degradation levels.

now, this price would obviously not be available to anyone who just wants one since they must have an exchange pack. naturally within 12-18 months (if not sooner) Nissan will offer a larger pack capacity which will be the same size eliminating any major cutting and squeezing...

** you may resume your reality**

 

[GerryAZ]

Dave,

Just to avoid confusion:
30C=86F
40C=104F
50C=122F

Gerry

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Dave,

Just to avoid confusion:
30C=86F
40C=104F
50C=122F

Gerry

oh if i didnt say that then that is what i meant...

now i am confused

 

[RegGuheert]

My Leaf number is 8614 and I bought it in El Paso at the beginning of May. From Nov. to May the temps never went much above 90 down there. That is the time frame of when they had it. I don't think they knew what they were doing with it so, maybe it was at full charge and it just drained but, I don't think Nissan sends them that way and I don't think they even bothered to charge it.

We bought a 2011 demo LEAF on March 16, 2012 with 2011 miles on the odometer. The car has a production date of June 15, 2011 and an in-service date of 30 September 30, 2011. I do not think we are about to lose a a bar, but I believe the car was already down about >5% in battery capacity when we purchased it. We have put less than 2000 additional miles on the car since then and have babied it, keeping SOC between 30% and 60% until just before we need to drive it. But recent testing indicated only about 17.8 kWh available from full to VLBW.

It will be interesting to see if we get less than 5 stars on the 100% charging and topping off score when we get our first battery report in two months. That should give us an idea of what the dealer did with it. I think I already know the answer...

 

[JPWhite]

What we're finding is that a bit more care needs to be taken with respect to charging/storage/etc., and that's not an unreasonable thing to ask given the benefits (like not funding OPEC).

If what you say is accurate, and it may well be, then what we are looking at is a long-term niche market.

No mainstream consumer will want to live within these parameters. They simply want to drive and charge and worry about nothing else. If EV's can't deliver that, then mainstream consumers will avoid them.

I believe Nissan thought that was what they were marketing. Maybe reality will upset their plans.

Other EV OEM's with TMS systems should be able to meet mainstream consumer expectations of what an EV is.

 

[edatoakrun]

="RegGuheert"...The car has a production date of June 15, 2011 and an in-service date of 30 September 30, 2011...

Where can others find those dates for their LEAFs, and do you know exactly what they indicate?

 

[RegGuheert]

Where can others find those dates for their LEAFs,...

It is printed in the second row of grids at the top of a service record from a Nissan dealer. "DEL. DATE" is the first entry there and "PROD. DATE" is the second entry. Some here have reported it is not on their receipts. I see "PROD. DATE" on all of my paperwork. I only see "DEL. DATE" on one of my service receipts.

...and do you know exactly what they indicate?

Delivery date is used to start the clock for the warranty period. Normally, it is the date when the car is sold to the first owner, but in the case of our car, it was the date that the local dealer reported to Nissan that the car was going into demo service.

I do not know the precise definition of "PROD. DATE".

 

[edatoakrun]

Where can others find those dates for their LEAFs,...

It is printed in the second row of grids at the top of a service record from a Nissan dealer. "DEL. DATE" is the first entry there and "PROD. DATE" is the second entry. Some here have reported it is not on their receipts. I see "PROD. DATE" on all of my paperwork. I only see "DEL. DATE" on one of my service receipts.

...and do you know exactly what they indicate?

Delivery date is used to start the clock for the warranty period. Normally, it is the date when the car is sold to the first owner, but in the case of our car, it was the date that the local dealer reported to Nissan that the car was going into demo service.

I do not know the precise definition of "PROD. DATE".

Sounds like my paperwork is in different format.

The ISD is listed on some paperwork as the day I signed my lease. The delivery date is the day I purchased, 10 months later, and is on only on my last paperwork, from the 1 year check.

I found a "Manufacture Date" of 03/24/11, only on the paperwork done for my purchase inspection.

This 3/8/12 inspection, BTW, says my spare tire has "100% tread"...

 

[Herm]

If what you say is accurate, and it may well be, then what we are looking at is a long-term niche market.
No mainstream consumer will want to live within these parameters. They simply want to drive and charge and worry about nothing else. If EV's can't deliver that, then mainstream consumers will avoid them.

LiFePO4 and lithium titanate cells can do this, high temp resistant and not affected by charging to 100% as much as higher voltage cells.. disadvantage is heavier battery packs. CODA is probably the best BEV in the market now yet everyone gets stuck on the classic understated design.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Where can others find those dates for their LEAFs,...

It is printed in the second row of grids at the top of a service record from a Nissan dealer. "DEL. DATE" is the first entry there and "PROD. DATE" is the second entry. Some here have reported it is not on their receipts. I see "PROD. DATE" on all of my paperwork. I only see "DEL. DATE" on one of my service receipts.

...and do you know exactly what they indicate?

Delivery date is used to start the clock for the warranty period. Normally, it is the date when the car is sold to the first owner, but in the case of our car, it was the date that the local dealer reported to Nissan that the car was going into demo service.

I do not know the precise definition of "PROD. DATE".

Sounds like my paperwork is in different format.

The ISD is listed on some paperwork as the day I signed my lease. The delivery date is the day I purchased, 10 months later, and is on only on my last paperwork, from the 1 year check.

I found a "Manufacture Date" of 03/24/11, only on the paperwork done for my purchase inspection.

This 3/8/12 inspection, BTW, says my spare tire has "100% tread"...

that means the can of fix a flat was full

 

[RegGuheert]

Sounds like my paperwork is in different format.

May be. Mine looks like what shrink has posted:

You can see the entry locations on his form, but that he does not have a production date listed.

 

[shrink]

You can see the entry locations on his form, but that he does not have a production date listed.

VIN# on that car was #6188 if that helps someone figure out the production date. I bought it on 8/6/2011 and as far as I know, it was not on the lot very long.

 

[cash4solar]

[/quote]If that was your expectation when you bought the Leaf, then prepare to be disappointed--not to mention you (and I) live in a "hot" zone (Texas). While I wouldn't be happy with what's going on in Arizona, I'm beginning to think that some folk's expectations really are unreasonable with this car. They seem to forget all the positives about it (like NO gas, NO maintenance) and focus on the negatives. What we're finding is that a bit more care needs to be taken with respect to charging/storage/etc., and that's not an unreasonable thing to ask given the benefits (like not funding OPEC).[/quote]

No way Rio Rancho, a suburb of Albuquerque, where I live, is any where close to as hot as either Plano or Phoenix. So far this summer the highest temp Rio Rancho has seen is 97 degrees. More importantly, our highest low has been 70 degrees. Plano has seen 100 plus temps. at least 13 times this summer and its regular lows have been in the upper 70's to low 80's. Albuquerque and its surrounding area is in the high desert. The elevation where I live is above 5800 ft. As a comparison, Denver's elevation is just above 5000 ft. That makes a difference.

My expectations are right where they should be. Nissan said after 5 years my capacity should be at 80 percent of the original capacity. The standard estimate of one year mileage is between 120000-15000k. That means at 60K-75K I should have 80 percent of the original capacity left. The first bar lost symbolizes 15 percent of Capacity. So, what I am saying is that I should not lose a capacity bar (15 percent of capacity) before 30k. I stand by that statement.

Finally, let me say that I am aware of all the positives and, I believe in global warming. I also love that I am not funding OPEC but, that is not the reason I bought the car. I am not wealthy enough to make my purchases based on what is good for society. I instead buy based on what is good for my family. I bought the car to save money, over the long run. If the battery perfoms the way Nissan says it will, then I will have made a good investment. If not, then I will be dissapointed. BTW, Nissan isn't in it to save the environment or destroy OPEC either. They build the car to make money. But I do admire your passion.