80% Charge only 9 bars?

[davewill]

... although a Mitsubishi flew by me so maybe they thought it was a race instead of an efficiency rally.

I bet the Mitsu was doing a blistering 30mph... :mrgreen:

 

[LEAFfan]

... although a Mitsubishi flew by me so maybe they thought it was a race instead of an efficiency rally.

I bet the Mitsu was doing a blistering 30mph... :mrgreen:

LOL, no, it literally 'flew' by me at the speed limit...45mph. By the way, that particular MieV didn't do well for efficiency and it had to recharge so often that the battery pack got pretty hot, so said the driver.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I've never had any urge or reason to drive 100 miles or more on one charge (even though I always had the m/kW h numbers to prove it) until this EV Rally came about and I respectfully decline 'membership' in the 'mile' clubs.

It doesn't work that way. You brag about it on the forum, and we make ya famous!

Welcome to the Club, Mr. Mileage Champ.

 

[shrink]

IMPORTANT: Bars are not an absolute measure of energy in the battery. They are a (very rough) measure of how much energy is there compared to how much could be there.

If the battery were to be so degraded that it could hold only half as much energy as it used to hold, and you filled it up, it would still show 12 bars.
Ray

Thanks for that feedback, Ray. With this being a new car, new technology, and being aware of the inevitable battery capacity reduction, myself and other LEAF owners can get a little sensitive about possible early battery degradation. I think a read one thread recently about another Phoenix area owner having a 12% loss after a year? That's concerning.

Anyway, for what it's worth, after charging to 100% over the weekend, an 80% charge is now back to 10 bars on my car.

LEAFan, congrats! That's some amazing driving, especially with a 10% battery capacity loss. I should meet up with you Phoenix guys one of these days. My girlfriend drives the LEAF a lot, though, so I might show up in my Volt :shock: , so keep the distance to 35 miles RT so I don't have to use gas to get to an EV meet.

 

[smkettner]

Anyway, for what it's worth, after charging to 100% over the weekend, an 80% charge is now back to 10 bars on my car.

 

[Ingineer]

The Leaf stops charging exactly at 80% REAL SOC as determined by the battery ECU. This does not correspond to "Gids" or what equivalent SOC a Gid meter reports. Also, after a time sitting, the Battery ECU can abruptly change it's SOC calculation upon power up, causing a bar to suddenly disappear if it was right on the edge. It uses many parameters of the battery, such as open-circuit voltage, temperature, etc to make these adjustments to correct for any drift on the SOC figure periodically.

This is not a problem or cause for concern.

If you routinely charge only to 80%, I suggest that you allow a 100% charge at least once in a while and leave the charger connected for at least 6 hours after charge if possible. This will allow for a proper top-balance and will keep everything adjusted and tracking properly, which will also ensure you have full capacity available. I'd say once a month is sufficient. Try not to let the car sit at full or near full charge for long periods, as long as you drive the car after charge there is no problem with fully charging.

-Phil

 

[LEAFfan]

LEAFfan, congrats! That's some amazing driving, especially with a 10% battery capacity loss. I should meet up with you Phoenix guys one of these days. My girlfriend drives the LEAF a lot, though, so I might show up in my Volt :shock: , so keep the distance to 35 miles RT so I don't have to use gas to get to an EV meet.

Thanks shrink. I tried to download the photos onto this computer, but for some reason my USB port won't recognize the phone. I bought a micro card reader/battery charger (looks like a small bag clip) but it had no directions so I'm working on that.

 

[garygid]

Ingineer,
What happens to the Real-SOC when battery Capacity is lost?

Does 100% Real-SOC represent the reduced capacity,
much like the 12-Bar fuel gauge does?

Thanks, Gary

 

[Ingineer]

Ingineer,
What happens to the Real-SOC when battery Capacity is lost?

Does 100% Real-SOC represent the reduced capacity,
much like the 12-Bar fuel gauge does?

Thanks, Gary

Yes, SOC will operate the same even with reduced capacity. SOC means state of charge, not State of Capacity, so it's showing you how much charge is in the total capacity. It never goes to 100% and never goes to zero either. (typically 2% -95%)

So let's say we start with roughly 22kWh usable. A charge to 80% would give you 17.6kWh. After 10 years you have lost 20% capacity, now an 80% charge will have about 14kWh.

The Gids however, will show a decrease. If you started with 280 gids when fully charged and new, after the loss you'll probably never hit 225.

Gids will be a useful measure of Capacity loss, with the caveat that a problem, such as premature charge stoppage or a defective cell, will "artificially" show low Gids. Because the SOC when "fully" charged seems to vary a lot (I've seen 93-96% so far), a sneaky way you can correlate Gids is to charge to 80%. This is real SOC 80%, so it will always stop exactly as it hits 80%. Although keep in mind, the Battery ECU's SOC number is subject to inaccuracies and it will correct itself. I'm sure you have seen this in the form of a sudden Gid jump (usually down) upon power up.

The battery ECU tracks many other interesting metrics which will be available in LEAFSCAN, such as overall capacity, capacity loss coefficient, internal resistance coefficient, etc.

-Phil

 

[91040]

Are the Gids fixed at 75-80Wh regardless of capacity?

If so, they can be used as a constant for determining range.

 

[surfingslovak]

Are the Gids fixed at 75-80Wh regardless of capacity?

If so, they can be used as a constant for determining range.

I'm sure that Phil will answer your question, and without wanting to put words in his mouth, I believe he mentioned in another thread that Gids into the battery pack should be 80 Wh. Gids out of the pack will be a bit less, and what we see on dashboard instruments will be yet another number, but it should not deviate more than 5 to 8% from the 80 Wh figure.

 

[Ingineer]

Take it for what you will, but Nissan calls Gids "Stored Watt Hours" when multiplied by 80. It seems to be pretty accurate to me, (discharge) using slightly more to gain watt-hours because of coulombic efficiency loss. (And the charger if you are watching the AC line)

-Phil

 

[tzzhc4]

My LEAF just started only showing 75% charge when set to 80%. I have been in the 80% club since about a week after getting my LEAF last June and up until last week the car has always shown 83% and had 10 bars on the dash when charged. Last week I was out of town for a few days and didn't drive the LEAF. When I got in it was at 75% at 9 bars and said it would take 10 minutes to charge to 80%. I ran some errands and dropped down to ~4-5 bars by the time I got home and plugged in. When I got up in the morning the car was only showing 9 bars but had "--" on the dash for time to charge to 80%.

Guess I will try adding in a full 100% with the time off and the charger connected a Ingineer suggests. Hopefully I am not about to end up in the 11 bar club

 

[LEAFfan]

My LEAF just started only showing 75% charge when set to 80%. I have been in the 80% club since about a week after getting my LEAF last June and up until last week the car has always shown 83% and had 10 bars on the dash when charged. Last week I was out of town for a few days and didn't drive the LEAF. When I got in it was at 75% at 9 bars and said it would take 10 minutes to charge to 80%. I ran some errands and dropped down to ~4-5 bars by the time I got home and plugged in. When I got up in the morning the car was only showing 9 bars but had "--" on the dash for time to charge to 80%.
Guess I will try adding in a full 100% with the time off and the charger connected a Ingineer suggests. Hopefully I am not about to end up in the 11 bar club

Unless you have an SoC gauge or GID meter, your bars will not tell you if you have lost capacity. You could have 86% capacity and you will still get 12 bars with a 100% charge. So you could be at a 14% loss and not really notice.

 

[planet4ever]

up until last week the car has always shown 83% and had 10 bars on the dash when charged. Last week I was out of town for a few days and didn't drive the LEAF. When I got in it was at 75% at 9 bars

"83%" in CarWings means 10 bars in the car, because Carwings just calculates 10/12 = 0.8333. "75%" in CarWings means 9 bars in the car, because Carwings just calculates 9/12 = 0.75. Those are not real percents and, as LEAFfan said, they do not tell you how much capacity you have. They tell you something, at a very gross +/-10% level, about how full your battery is, but nothing about how much it can hold.

Ray

 

[tzzhc4]

up until last week the car has always shown 83% and had 10 bars on the dash when charged. Last week I was out of town for a few days and didn't drive the LEAF. When I got in it was at 75% at 9 bars

"83%" in CarWings means 10 bars in the car, because Carwings just calculates 10/12 = 0.8333. "75%" in CarWings means 9 bars in the car, because Carwings just calculates 9/12 = 0.75. Those are not real percents and, as LEAFfan said, they do not tell you how much capacity you have. They tell you something, at a very gross +/-10% level, about how full your battery is, but nothing about how much it can hold.

Ray

I will hook up my SOC meter on my drive tomorrow and see what I actually have.

 

[DaveEV]

I will hook up my SOC meter on my drive tomorrow and see what I actually have.

Since you have a SOC meter, what does it read on a 80% and 100% charge? Reporting the voltage after charging to those levels might be helpful, too.

 

[tzzhc4]

I will hook up my SOC meter on my drive tomorrow and see what I actually have.

Since you have a SOC meter, what does it read on a 80% and 100% charge? Reporting the voltage after charging to those levels might be helpful, too.

74% and 208 units when charged to 80%. Going to perform a 100% charge overnight per Ingineer's comment and see what it reads for 100% tomorrow morning.

Edit:
Also just to clarify should be "80%" because the timer is set to 80% but it stops charging at 75% according to Carwings and the SOC meter shows 74%.

 

[LEAFfan]

74% and 208 units when charged to 80%. Going to perform a 100% charge overnight per Ingineer's comment and see what it reads for 100% tomorrow morning.

So far then, it looks like a 5-6% capacity loss.

 

[tzzhc4]

74% and 208 units when charged to 80%. Going to perform a 100% charge overnight per Ingineer's comment and see what it reads for 100% tomorrow morning.

So far then, it looks like a 5-6% capacity loss.

Also just to clarify should be "80%" because the timer is set to 80% but it stops charging at 75% according to Carwings and the SOC meter shows 74%.