2013 Leaf will add 6.6kW & new efficient heater

[TomT]

Just a slight correction. I have never seen a home (in the U.S. at least) that has three phase power. In the U.S. we use split phase (or two phase, if you prefer) 240.

Zoe's 40 kW charger has been designed for Europe where 3-ph electricity is ubiquitous. Ofcourse, we have 3-ph in US as well - but rarely seen outside the control panel in our homes.

 

[bno]

The new Renault ZOE comprises a heatpump. Hence a close relationship with Nissan I bet a heatpump is to find the way into the 2013 Leaf as well. Adding range while driving in a "Norwegian winter" :lol: .

 

[kmp647]

even a cheap residential split heat pump is good down to 16F operation

not sure how diferent a moving heat pump system is in an EV

if it works well down to16F it would cover most heating duty in the usa most of the time

then use backup resistive in really extreme cnditions

would be significant winter range improvement

 

[DaveEV]

example, I make my 64 mile rt commute and arrive home at 4 pm with 2-3 bars
I want to use the leaf to drive 14-16 miles each way to baseball practice with my son.

cant do it, even plugged in for 1 hour at the low 3.3k rate i only get to 4 bars and I'm to nervous and take the ICE.

I think you're being overly cautious here. 14-16 miles with 2-3 bars isn't a problem driving conservatively. 1 hour of L2 is enough to cover at least 10 miles so I'd say as long as you have 1 bar showing when you start charging you have nothing to worry about as long as you aren't planning on driving those 16 miles at 80 mph.

Sure - charging twice as fast would be nice in many instances - but in this case it's not necessary at all - certainly if you're able to drive 64 miles with 2-3 bars remaining and only have another 16 miles to go (80 mi total).

Zoe's 40 kW charger has been designed for Europe where 3-ph electricity is ubiquitous. Ofcourse, we have 3-ph in US as well - but rarely seen outside the control panel in our homes.

The Mennekes charge plug is pretty nice - the size of J1772 L2 but handles everything from L1 to over 40 kW of (3-phase) power.

And since the on-car charger is responsible from converting AC to DC, this greatly simplifies the charging station.

It's no wonder that Tesla's plug is similar to the Mennekes plug.

I have to wonder if we'll see the Renault Chameleon charging technology show up in the LEAF - this would mean that the LEAF could do 240V/70A L2 (17kW) like the Tesla. Get 80% charged from empty in an hour!

 

[TNleaf]

Last summer we had 100-105 30-some-odd days here in arkansas after I got my leaf. I cranked the a/c all the time and never got below the range I get with the climate control off.

That's just not possible (unless your idea of range is what the GuessOmeter provides).

That AC pump uses high voltage straight out of the battery. The more it pumps, the more it uses.

Impossible? Given that it happened, I think not, and I'm FAR from the only one who has experienced it. Just read any discussion about efficient a/c usage on this board. The pump is utilized only as much as is necessary to maintain evaporator core temperature. When the vehicle's inside air has reached target temperature and minimal air is moving across the evaporator, that takes nearly no power. So if you set the temp all the way down (in order to avoid any heater usage), keep the car in eco mode, turn the fan down as soon as the cabin hits a comfortable temp, then turn on the energy usage display - you'll see it's consuming somewhere in the 100-200w range (I think; the sliver of usage on the screen is too small for a closer estimate) - such a small draw that it is negligible impact. And you'll note that even in 100+ weather that's enough to keep the cabin comfortable. I used that method all summer - literally dozens of 100+ days, in a black car, weekdays parked in an uncovered lot at work all day - and never lost a measurable bit of range or efficiency, and numerous others on this board have experienced the same.

That's part of the reason I found the loss of range from the heater so vexing...

I'm with Tony on this one. You did not get to use the A/C non-stop without a loss of energy. Otherwise, your LEAF is magical and not obeying the laws of thermodynamics.

I can believe, however, that when you drove with the AC on non-stop, you may have been driving more efficiently (or slower) than the times you drove without use of the climate control. In which case your statement about the AC being efficient has no significant backing.

Let's assume the 2 following scenarios are on an identical route in similar weather conditions.

Scenario 1:
Climate control OFF. You drove at a constant 55 mph for an entire charge and averaged 4.3 m/kWh, and were able to drive 89 miles to turtle mode.

Scenario 2:
Climate control ON. You drove at a constant 50 mph for an entire charge and averaged 4.3 m/kWh, and were able to drive 89 miles to turtle mode.

There you have a scenario, having Climate Control on the entire trip didn't affect your range (which you had previously witnessed). The problem with my previous statement is that it doesn't mean much because you drove more efficiently in Scenario 2 (50v55mph), but the Climate Control ate up the energy you would have saved.

Bottom line (I had to re-read your post), it sounds like you are claiming to have a LEAF that you can use the AC without consuming any additional energy. That is just a false statement no matter how you try to word it.

 

[smkettner]

Its strange that they would annouce this info now, with plenty more 2012's to be produced and sold....

anyone who is on the fence on a leaf purchase might wait til December/ jan feb 2013 to purchase to get the newer heater and interior, and the 6.6kw , important improvments most of us would like

in the car business hese annoucments are normally made in july, august or september

why tip your hat or whatever and let people know now?

What is left out is pricing. Does everyone think there will be no increase? Will local production save that much?
2012 model might be the low cost option vs the 2013.

 

[IBELEAF]

What is left out is pricing. Does everyone think there will be no increase? Will local production save that much?
2012 model might be the low cost option vs the 2013.

I think it would be a "death" to Leaf sales if they increase price any more then it already is. And if that's the case then why not throw a few more grand for a base Model S.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So if you set the temp all the way down (in order to avoid any heater usage), keep the car in eco mode, turn the fan down as soon as the cabin hits a comfortable temp, then turn on the energy usage display - you'll see it's consuming somewhere in the 100-200w range (I think; the sliver of usage on the screen is too small for a closer estimate) - such a small draw that it is negligible impact.

Eco mode - reduces climate control
Turn fan down - it uses almost no power (compared to a air conditioner pump), but that might turn off the ac pump, or reduce it's cycling further

So, what you're saying is turn the A/C way down, and it uses little power. I agree. Saying it uses no power; patently false.

Whether that is comfortable for ME on a 100F day, I doubt we'd have the same experience. But then, it doesn't hit 100 here.

 

[defiancecp]

I'm with Tony on this one. You did not get to use the A/C non-stop without a loss of energy. Otherwise, your LEAF is magical and not obeying the laws of thermodynamics.

I can believe, however, that when you drove with the AC on non-stop, you may have been driving more efficiently (or slower) than the times you drove without use of the climate control. In which case your statement about the AC being efficient has no significant backing.

Scenario whatever: actually bother reading the post. I'm not claiming thermodynamic improbabilities - I'm claiming that it consumes little enough power that the impact to range is inconsequential. I've been driving this route 5 times a day for 8 months now; I don't magically drive differently when I turn my A/C on. Further, my claims are consistent with the power consumption gauge - it shows a tiny sliver of power consumption after being on just a couple minutes.

 

[TNleaf]

So if you set the temp all the way down (in order to avoid any heater usage), keep the car in eco mode, turn the fan down as soon as the cabin hits a comfortable temp, then turn on the energy usage display - you'll see it's consuming somewhere in the 100-200w range (I think; the sliver of usage on the screen is too small for a closer estimate) - such a small draw that it is negligible impact.

Eco mode - reduces climate control
Turn fan down - it uses almost no power (compared to a air conditioner pump), but that might turn off the ac pump, or reduce it's cycling further

So, what you're saying is turn the A/C way down, and it uses little power. I agree. Saying it uses no power; patently false.

Whether that is comfortable for ME on a 100F day, I doubt we'd have the same experience. But then, it doesn't hit 100 here.

Worded much better than what I did, haha.

No mention of any change to the A/C unit on the 2013, likely because the one in the current LEAFs are plenty efficient.

 

[defiancecp]

Whether that is comfortable for ME on a 100F day, I doubt we'd have the same experience. But then, it doesn't hit 100 here.

If you're not comfortable with an interior temp in the low-mid 70's, I guess we're just using different criteria for comfortable :roll:

 

[TNleaf]

I'm with Tony on this one. You did not get to use the A/C non-stop without a loss of energy. Otherwise, your LEAF is magical and not obeying the laws of thermodynamics.

I can believe, however, that when you drove with the AC on non-stop, you may have been driving more efficiently (or slower) than the times you drove without use of the climate control. In which case your statement about the AC being efficient has no significant backing.

Scenario whatever: actually bother reading the post. I'm not claiming thermodynamic improbabilities - I'm claiming that it consumes little enough power that the impact to range is inconsequential. I've been driving this route 5 times a day for 8 months now; I don't magically drive differently when I turn my A/C on. Further, my claims are consistent with the power consumption gauge - it shows a tiny sliver of power consumption after being on just a couple minutes.

It's all about your wording. I agree, the A/C can use very little energy, especially when in ECO mode.

Saying "uses very little energy" and "doesn't affect my range at all" are two completely different claims.

Anddddd, back to on topic. 2013 LEAF.

I wonder if the Smyrna plant will be up to speed to start the build of the new LEAFs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Whether that is comfortable for ME on a 100F day, I doubt we'd have the same experience. But then, it doesn't hit 100 here.

If you're not comfortable with an interior temp in the low-mid 70's, I guess we're just using different criteria for comfortable :roll:

If it can do that at the parameters you set. I just use AUTO at my preferred temp. I know enough about physics to guess that it takes exactly the same energy to do the job, whatever the settings are.

Cooling a temperature delta of 30 degrees (100 down to 70) takes a fixed amount of energy.

 

[defiancecp]

I'm with Tony on this one. You did not get to use the A/C non-stop without a loss of energy. Otherwise, your LEAF is magical and not obeying the laws of thermodynamics.

I can believe, however, that when you drove with the AC on non-stop, you may have been driving more efficiently (or slower) than the times you drove without use of the climate control. In which case your statement about the AC being efficient has no significant backing.

Scenario whatever: actually bother reading the post. I'm not claiming thermodynamic improbabilities - I'm claiming that it consumes little enough power that the impact to range is inconsequential. I've been driving this route 5 times a day for 8 months now; I don't magically drive differently when I turn my A/C on. Further, my claims are consistent with the power consumption gauge - it shows a tiny sliver of power consumption after being on just a couple minutes.

It's all about your wording. I agree, the A/C can use very little energy, especially when in ECO mode.

Saying "uses very little energy" and "doesn't affect my range at all" are two completely different claims.

Anddddd, back to on topic. 2013 LEAF.

I wonder if the Smyrna plant will be up to speed to start the build of the new LEAFs.

The system can keep the interior in the low-mid 70's while external temperature is in the triple digits, while consuming little enough power to make no little enough difference that the impacts are below the precision of the meter (in other words, less than .1 m/kwh impact, as below that is not visible, and less than, say, 5 miles range loss, as below that is within the day-to-day variations), both of the above statements are true. And that is my experience. If you don't believe me, suit yourself - I'm perfectly willing to take some video if you're actually interested in the topic; if you're more interested in debating wording, however, I'm just going to leave you to that. I said what I meant, and I'm willing to back it up. The a/c system can perform with a very high level of efficiency, but the "auto" system does not do so nearly as effectively as it could.

 

[TNleaf]

The system can keep the interior in the low-mid 70's while external temperature is in the triple digits, while consuming little enough power to make no little enough difference that the impacts are below the precision of the meter (in other words, less than .1 m/kwh impact, as below that is not visible, and less than, say, 5 miles range loss, as below that is within the day-to-day variations), both of the above statements are true. And that is my experience. If you don't believe me, suit yourself - I'm perfectly willing to take some video if you're actually interested in the topic; if you're more interested in debating wording, however, I'm just going to leave you to that. I said what I meant, and I'm willing to back it up. The a/c system can perform with a very high level of efficiency, but the "auto" system does not do so nearly as effectively as it could.

Last response to you since this is back off-topic. I've said I agree with your corrected statement of "the A/C is highly efficient" especially in ECO mode.

However, I did not agree with your first post in which you stated that you "cranked the a/c all the time" without any affect on your range. The post that I'm quoting now even states this is not true. So unless you are wanting to argue a moot point, there's no need for a video. 5 mile range loss != "no affect on range" it's as simple as that. Be careful when you use absolute statements.

So, how about that 2013 LEAF.

 

[IBELEAF]

I don't care about most updates with the exception of 6.6 kW charger, so maybe if there is enough interest for early adopters to start a petition for Nissan to offer this as an upgrade.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I still not see 6.6 kW charger update anywhere, can someone point me where this was announced
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/ma...eld-article-1.1048178?localLinksEnabled=false

 

[tjz]

I just don't buy this 6-7KW will kill the grid argument. Every time I do the laundry and check out my power usage with my TED, I see my household power spike by just that amount - I have an electric hot water heater and I run my electric dryer. I have a gas oven, but If I had an electric one, and was baking at the same time, I'd see a 10KW spike. The grid is already able to handle those type of fluctuations - I live in a neighborhood with ancient electrical infrastructure and I've not seen exploding transformers or complaints from the utilities when my neighbors and I use our 240V appliances. This is just fear of the unknown, I think.

6.6 is a big deal and they should change it on the 2013 model

example, I make my 64 mile rt commute and arrive home at 4 pm with 2-3 bars
I want to use the leaf to drive 14-16 miles each way to baseball practice with my son.

cant do it, even plugged in for 1 hour at the low 3.3k rate i only get to 4 bars and I'm to nervous and take the ICE.

If I had 6.6kw , I would have been up to 6 bars plus by departure time.

Your dream, and your utility's, and your regional electric grid's load managers' nightmares.

Maximum BEV charge demand, perfectly timed for summer afternoon maximum grid demand.

Many new electricity generation plants would need to be built, and the local infrastructure in you neighborhood, would also need to be upgraded, at great expense, since many other BEV owners will have the same plans.

Someone will either have to pay a hell of a lot per kWh for that charging behavior, or you will shift to an alternative.

Even if you get a faster L2, you will probably prefer a much cheaper alternative, a charge in the AM at work (or another L2 paring space) or to use a fast charge station, earlier in the day.

 

[IBELEAF]

I still not see 6.6 kW charger update anywhere, can someone point me where this was announced
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/ma...eld-article-1.1048178?localLinksEnabled=false

It appears it was announced with this thread or OP has insider information about this update...

 

[defiancecp]

The system can keep the interior in the low-mid 70's while external temperature is in the triple digits, while consuming little enough power to make no little enough difference that the impacts are below the precision of the meter (in other words, less than .1 m/kwh impact, as below that is not visible, and less than, say, 5 miles range loss, as below that is within the day-to-day variations), both of the above statements are true. And that is my experience. If you don't believe me, suit yourself - I'm perfectly willing to take some video if you're actually interested in the topic; if you're more interested in debating wording, however, I'm just going to leave you to that. I said what I meant, and I'm willing to back it up. The a/c system can perform with a very high level of efficiency, but the "auto" system does not do so nearly as effectively as it could.

Last response to you since this is back off-topic. I've said I agree with your corrected statement of "the A/C is highly efficient" especially in ECO mode.

However, I did not agree with your first post in which you stated that you can blast the AC without any affect on your range. The post that I'm quoting now even states this is not true. So unless you are wanting to argue a moot point, there's no need for a video. 5 mile range loss != "no affect on range" it's as simple as that. Be careful when you use absolute statements.

So, how about that 2013 LEAF.

Don't recall and can't find anywhere I said I blasted it - If I'm just overlooking where I did I apologize for misstating.