2013 Leaf will add 6.6kW & new efficient heater

[GRA]

In DANandNAN's case the need for QC is far less, cause they can always take the Volt for trips outside the FFE's range (with far less inconvenience than QC'ing), and the 6.6 kW charger in the FFE provides a lot more useful top-up charging during local driving than a 3.3. With that vehicle combo I'd probably not bother with QC either unless I regularly had to drive the FFE beyond the battery range when the Volt was unavailable. If the BEV was my sole car it would be a different matter.

I don't think "QC" should matter that much for most buyers. These are city cars, that a few adventurous folks will take on road trips occasionally. Most folks don't want to take a car that, due to range & charging limitations, is limited to 40MPH (actual miles traveled per hour). And, probably much slower than that if the DC station is throttled down to 20kw or not conveniently located.

Well with QC you suddenly have an unlimited range EV. What's not to like???

A hard 45 mph speed limit that can't be broken no matter how fast you try to go?

Notes:

• Perhaps it should be less than 70%, but I am using Phil's report that "80%" is really out of total capacity, and more like 85% of available.
• Going below LBW won't help; it will just increase the charging time.
• If you go beyond 80% the charging slows dramatically, and the numbers get worse.
• 25 minutes charge time is very optimistic, since you need to include the time to get off the freeway and get to the charging station.
• 25 minutes becomes even more unrealistic when you realize you might have to wait for someone else to finish charging.
• I haven't allowed for the fact that multiple charges are likely to overheat the battery, forcing even longer waits.

Ray

Then there's the cost. Anyway, most folks, and even most Leaf owners, would rather take an ICE than go that slow, which is why the Leaf, FFE and Coda are city cars.

Now, if you're living in an apartment or condo and don't have access to a garage, then absolutely you have to consider the DC port because you have no other great option. But, I don't think the lack of a DC port will break the FFE.

I haven't had the opportunity to sit in a FFE but we did pile into a Focus and liked it a lot more than the Leaf we'd just climbed out of. Maybe if I spent as much time in a Focus as I've spent in a Leaf I'd find more to not like about it. The FFE trunk isn't as spacious, but I'd like to see it in person instead of online http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From my perspective, while QC won't turn any current sub-$40k BEV into a practical road-tripper, it will extend the useful radius for weekend trips. There are lots of places around the Bay Area that are out of unrecharged range for the Leaf and similar BEVs, but a single QC, or one each way with/without destination L2 makes these trips feasible. Many people are willing (or eager) to make a stop for a meal along the way, so this adds minimum inconvenience to the trip while expanding the BEVs utility.

 

[TEG]

...
From my perspective, while QC won't turn any current sub-$40k BEV into a practical road-tripper, it will extend the useful radius for weekend trips. There are lots of places around the Bay Area that are out of unrecharged range for the Leaf and similar BEVs, but a single QC, or one each way with/without destination L2 makes these trips feasible. Many people are willing (or eager) to make a stop for a meal along the way, so this adds minimum inconvenience to the trip while expanding the BEVs utility.

I hope they put a QC in Gilroy so that "Silicon Valley People" can make trips to Carmel easily.

 

[WetEV]

I don't think "QC" should matter that much for most buyers. These are city cars, that a few adventurous folks will take on road trips occasionally. Most folks don't want to take a car that, due to range & charging limitations, is limited to 40MPH (actual miles traveled per hour). And, probably much slower than that if the DC station is throttled down to 20kw or not conveniently located.

While it might be rare to take a road trip, QC makes it a lot more reasonable.
With a 3.8kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 11 MPH.
With a 6.6kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 16 MPH.

With one stop, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 50 mph. A little better than 17 mph with a 3.8kW charger.
With two stops, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 46 mph. A little better than the 15 MPH with a 3.8 kW charger.

For me, a lot of interesting stuff is one or two QC away.

 

[edatoakrun]

I don't think "QC" should matter that much for most buyers. These are city cars, that a few adventurous folks will take on road trips occasionally. Most folks don't want to take a car that, due to range & charging limitations, is limited to 40MPH (actual miles traveled per hour). And, probably much slower than that if the DC station is throttled down to 20kw or not conveniently located.

While it might be rare to take a road trip, QC makes it a lot more reasonable.
With a 3.8kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 11 MPH.
With a 6.6kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 16 MPH.

With one stop, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 50 mph. A little better than 17 mph with a 3.8kW charger.
With two stops, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 46 mph. A little better than the 15 MPH with a 3.8 kW charger.

For me, a lot of interesting stuff is one or two QC away.

If you drive a 100 mile range BEV, 200 miles, is one QC away.

If you drive a 200 mile range BEV, 400 miles, is one QC away.

As BEV ranges improve, QC will enable longer and longer trips.

Slow L2 public charging, will remain as comparatively worthless, as it is today.

 

[TomT]

Three QCs would eliminate most all of my need to ever use the ICE. One down in the San Pedro area where I have to go to the Coast Guard base every week, one somewhere in GG/Anaheim where I go twice a month or so, and one in Ventura/Oxnard...

 

[GRA]

I don't think "QC" should matter that much for most buyers. These are city cars, that a few adventurous folks will take on road trips occasionally. Most folks don't want to take a car that, due to range & charging limitations, is limited to 40MPH (actual miles traveled per hour). And, probably much slower than that if the DC station is throttled down to 20kw or not conveniently located.

While it might be rare to take a road trip, QC makes it a lot more reasonable.
With a 3.8kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 11 MPH.
With a 6.6kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 16 MPH.

With one stop, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 50 mph. A little better than 17 mph with a 3.8kW charger.
With two stops, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 46 mph. A little better than the 15 MPH with a 3.8 kW charger.

For me, a lot of interesting stuff is one or two QC away.

You mistakenly attributed the quote you were replying to to me (GRA), so I changed it to correct the attribution (DanandNan).

 

[GRA]

...
From my perspective, while QC won't turn any current sub-$40k BEV into a practical road-tripper, it will extend the useful radius for weekend trips. There are lots of places around the Bay Area that are out of unrecharged range for the Leaf and similar BEVs, but a single QC, or one each way with/without destination L2 makes these trips feasible. Many people are willing (or eager) to make a stop for a meal along the way, so this adds minimum inconvenience to the trip while expanding the BEVs utility.

I hope they put a QC in Gilroy so that "Silicon Valley People" can make trips to Carmel easily.

Absolutely, in fact one there would make a current BEV at least marginally useful for me (albeit not convenient - I want the range to go non-stop from the East Bay to Monterey). Planet4Ever managed to convince the powers that be to install some L2s at Gilroy Premium Outlets, so maybe he can sprinkle some more pixie dust and we can get an L3 there. But we really need more L2s in Monterey and Carmel too, cause at the moment we're limited to a couple of Walgreen's in Seaside and Marina, a perpetually out of service Blink located nowhere useful in Carmel, and assorted L2s in Salinas plus one in San Juan Bautista.

While we're at it, let's get one in Point Reyes Station (or at least San Rafael), Vacaville if we can get PG&E to release their hostage, and Fairfield or Napa as appropriate. Oh, I can dream. . .

 

[DANandNAN]

While it might be rare to take a road trip, QC makes it a lot more reasonable.
With a 3.8kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 11 MPH.
With a 6.6kW charger, maximum continous speed is about 16 MPH.

With one stop, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 50 mph. A little better than 17 mph with a 3.8kW charger.
With two stops, driving at 60 mph, average speed with a 25 minute QC is 46 mph. A little better than the 15 MPH with a 3.8 kW charger.

For me, a lot of interesting stuff is one or two QC away.

Except that there's the question of rate; how much juice will these L3 chargers be putting out? There's already some that have been cut to 20kw. That's a humungous cut that will severely impact travel speeds.

Also 6.6 should be about 20MPHC.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Like I said in another thread, I get that there's a few locations where a L3 would be utilized regularly. I don't agree with the sentiment that some folks have that they make it a road trip vehicle.

If you drive a 100 mile range BEV, 200 miles, is one QC away.

If you drive a 200 mile range BEV, 400 miles, is one QC away.

As BEV ranges improve, QC will enable longer and longer trips.

Slow L2 public charging, will remain as comparatively worthless, as it is today.

I completely agree that as range improves things will improve. But, I disagree with calling L2 slow and worthless. Your Leaf & my Volt have the slowest L2 chargers But, the next generation L2 chargers are out there. 6.6 @ 20MPHC, the BMW has a 7kw charger, and the Rav4EV (Tesla) with a 10. Don't hold the L2 station in low regards because our cars don't have the latest and greatest.

Planet4Ever managed to convince the powers that be to install some L2s at Gilroy Premium Outlets, so maybe he can sprinkle some more pixie dust and we can get an L3 there.

I get why they installed L2 - it takes longer and chargers patronize stores while charging - but L3 doesn't make a lot of sense because users will be there for 30-50 minutes and watching their cars (at least that's what most folks advocate). So the stores only chance for a return on their enormous investment is to charge for charging.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I think that L2 at 6.6 kW will be helpful. However, when I think of overnight storage, a 6.6 kW will give somewhere around 79.2 kWh for a charge for 12 hours. That should be equal to about 356 miles for the next day ( at 4.5 miles per kWh) even if the battery capacity is greater than that. This, interestingly enough is close to what the Tesla 85 kWh battery can absorb (i.e. rated at 365 miles per charge). Thus, if battery capacity is greater than that, then a faster charge will be necessary. Also, this does not take into account for the degradation of the battery from quick charging (or something higher than 6.6). Thus, I think that using EV for long distance travel, even if motels provide L2 charging will have to be increased and the next generation of batteries will be necessary for an EV to be able to be used for cross country travel. Batteries need to be improved as well as the charging stations at the end of the day. I'm anxiously awaiting the commercialization of the next generation of batteries and for the infrastructure to be built. I hope/think that there is light at the end of the tunnel and it is not a train. Meanwhile we'll be using our LEAF for 90% of our driving locally.

 

[GRA]

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Snip>

Planet4Ever managed to convince the powers that be to install some L2s at Gilroy Premium Outlets, so maybe he can sprinkle some more pixie dust and we can get an L3 there.

I get why they installed L2 - it takes longer and chargers patronize stores while charging - but L3 doesn't make a lot of sense because users will be there for 30-50 minutes and watching their cars (at least that's what most folks advocate). So the stores only chance for a return on their enormous investment is to charge for charging.

Sloppy wording on my part. I wasn't implying that we need L3 at the Premium Outlets, just that we need one in Gilroy - there are fast food joints in the same area. This is an obvious location as it's an appropriate distance (for Leaf-class range) from the Bay Area en route to Monterey/Carmel/Big Sur, as well as being at the junction with Hwy 152 which connects with the central valley at Santa Nella, an obvious L3 location for longer-ranged BEVs.

OBTW, I have recently come across a study that quantifies another payback for stores that offer charging, even free charging - lower advertising costs/customer. Much as free parking at malls ($1-2,000 per space paved and striped) is offered to draw customers who might go elsewhere, offering charging can have the same effect, and we know that many BEV buyers already include this in their decision on where to shop.

 

[brettcgb]

Couple of things to note.
Of course, we have 3-ph in US as well - but rarely seen outside the control panel in our homes.

I've never lived in a home with 3-phase power. They've all been powered using "split phase" (240V center-tapped secondary provides a neutral (the tap) and two 120V lines. Get 240V by connecting between the 120V lines.) I'm not certain you could get true 3-phase power in most residential communities.

I'm fairly certain that 3-phase is available in business parks. I don't know about the smaller retail shopping centers.

 

[Douglas57]

If Starbucks put chargers at their locations, the whole country would be saved! Seriously though, that would be great. :lol: