100 Mile Club, 200 km, 300 km, 200 Mile Club (24kWh LEAF)

[GRA]

My ~110miles hypothetical trip would be asinine without charging.

There are probably 2 Nissan dealers on the route so charging might actually be reasonable. If DC quick charge ever came to dealers it would be even better. But again, even a 120V outlet at the airport garage would solve the problem too!

In reality, this trip isn't mandatory. Virtually any situation that would require me to go to the airport alone would be a business trip - and thus either mileage paid (and parking) or a chauffeured car is an option. I'd just choose the car rather than self-driving.

I think the discussions in this thread as well as those in "Chicagoland area" and the like may turn some potential customers like stylekyle to Codas, assuming they insist on a BEV and are willing to take the risk. Coda really needs to start a leasing program to decrease the "will they still be around in a few years?" anxiety. It's either that or a Volt at the moment. If they really want an honest, worst case 70 mile/normal 100 mile range BEV, the Coda is the only one out there (well, supposedly January now) for $40k or less.

I expect we'll be reading accounts this winter of Leafers stuck on a freeway in really cold weather when the road gets shut down for an accident, and running out of charge. No big deal here in coastal California, but I'd hate to be in the situation of having to decide between running my heater for a couple of hours in temps at or below zero to avoid frostbite/hypothermia, or else being able to get off the freeway unassisted. In those kinds of conditions, I'd want to have a reserve that would give me at least 2 hours of heater/defroster use in addition to the range requirement, and that really sinks a Leaf-range car's practical commute range.

 

[abasile]

I expect we'll be reading accounts this winter of Leafers stuck on a freeway in really cold weather when the road gets shut down for an accident, and running out of charge. No big deal here in coastal California, but I'd hate to be in the situation of having to decide between running my heater for a couple of hours in temps at or below zero to avoid frostbite/hypothermia, or else being able to get off the freeway unassisted. In those kinds of conditions, I'd want to have a reserve that would give me at least 2 hours of heater/defroster use in addition to the range requirement, and that really sinks a Leaf-range car's practical commute range.

There is a simple solution to this. No matter what kind of vehicle one is driving, it is always wise to carry an extra blanket and extra clothing when driving in winter conditions. Gasoline cars can and will occasionally break down and strand their occupants in poor conditions. Driving a battery-powered car, the concern is not so much the possibility of mechanical breakdown, but rather preserving enough charge to complete the drive. If I find myself stuck behind an accident in frigid conditions, I am not going to run my LEAF's heater continuously. I will instead take out the warm blanket and extra jacket that I keep in the trunk, right next to my tire chains and charging adapters. If it's really cold, maybe consider keeping a couple of quality, compact sleeping bags in the trunk; they are great for keeping warm in an emergency. This isn't hard, and would be good advice for all cold-weather drivers.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I expect we'll be reading accounts this winter of Leafers stuck on a freeway in really cold weather when the road gets shut down for an accident, and running out of charge. No big deal here in coastal California, but I'd hate to be in the situation of having to decide between running my heater for a couple of hours in temps at or below zero to avoid frostbite/hypothermia

In extreme situations where you could DIE from hypothermia, carry something like this in the trunk:

Mr. Heater® Portable Buddy™ Indoor Safe Propane Heater
Heating Time: One 1lb. Cylinder: 1.5 to 6 hour

Item #: R4S4LBB4
Model No. MH9B
Price: $119.90

Not designed for permanent installation or for use above 7,000 feet (it has an low oxygen auto shut off feature.... 7000 feet and above has oodles less oxygen than below 7000 feet).

Specifications:

4,000/9,000/BTU/Hr. (EDIT: the 4000 BTU setting equals about 1.1kWh)
Gas: Propane
Operating Position: Vertical
Valve Position: Pilot, Lo, & Hi
Weight: 8 lbs
Size: 14"L x 7"W x 14"H

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

wow, we are a gloomy bunch. not that gettting stranded is so rare to not worry about it. people do it and die from it every year. another option is simply get a cheap 12 volt heater. i bought one (one of many experiments battling foggy windows) that plugs into the cigarette lighter. it uses less than 200 watts and it does not put out a lot of heat but easily enough to keep one person warm.

now, maybe it does not work in extreme cold but it worked more than well enough for me. bought it when it was on sale for $9, the regular price was like $13.

but ya, if you live in that kind of weather, you should be prepared.

 

[lpickup]

I expect we'll be reading accounts this winter of Leafers stuck on a freeway in really cold weather when the road gets shut down for an accident, and running out of charge.

Reminds me of a very cold winter morning when I discovered that my relatively new (to me) Beetle's gas gauge meant EMPTY when it read empty (actually the problem is that it always read high, so when it went from 1/8th down to 0 in the span of about 2 miles and then that was it). I think I waited about 2 hours for my wife to show up with a can of gas. Not fun, but considering I was dressed for the weather anyway I survived. Granted, I know that occasionally there are backups that last much longer than 2 hours, but in these days of cell phones I do doubt that anyone is literally going to freeze to death.

 

[Caracalover]

I expect we'll be reading accounts this winter of Leafers stuck on a freeway in really cold weather when the road gets shut down for an accident, and running out of charge. No big deal here in coastal California, but I'd hate to be in the situation of having to decide between running my heater for a couple of hours in temps at or below zero to avoid frostbite/hypothermia, or else being able to get off the freeway unassisted. In those kinds of conditions, I'd want to have a reserve that would give me at least 2 hours of heater/defroster use in addition to the range requirement, and that really sinks a Leaf-range car's practical commute range.

People run out of gas in those situations, but there is a difference here. If you are pulling 5 kw out of a 20kw battery pack, you can run the heater on full for 4 hours if you are fully charged. I don't think you can actually use that much, as when I use the heater it usually settles around 3.5KW. With only half a charge left that would still be more than the two hours you ask for before running low on energy. With an off and on use, you could get far more time if needed. I would also rather have the electric heat in a snowstorm with no chance of killing myself with exhaust fumes. I doubt many Leaf's will get stuck actually on the freeway, since they can regenerate energy with a push, and I have heard Turtle mode limits or stops the energy allowed for heat. You may have a further delay to get where you are going due to the need to go slower after the road opens, but hey, you are already delayed at that point.

With this vehicle you have to factor time almost as much as distance - if I use 4kw for heat, and 16kw for speed, I can drive for an hour with a 20 KWH batttery pack. Need to be in the car more than an hour? Find a way to fudge the numbers. Want to use 40KW to go faster up the hill, or 80KW to race the guy from the light? It is going to change the bottom line of 20KWH you have to use. Really not that hard, but in real cold weather you may not have a full 20KW to work with, so figures need to be altered to perhaps 18KW? (I say 20kw battery pack because I want to keep 1 or so KW unused, as a buffer, and so far I have not seen a VLBW, or turtle.)

If you live on flat land, like in Ohio, you might find you can maintain 50MPH for 5kw to 10kw (Not sure, I do very little flat driving). That equates to two to four hours of driving (Like the 3:45 used to go 107 miles). Bad conditions and frigid air will force you to use more energy, or slow down to keep your energy use in check. I find it fun to do this, not at all troublesome, and I enjoy the calculations as I drive - fights the boredom on occasion. You coast in N to gain speed then regen back 10 kw for two minutes on a long gentle downhill. That gives you another minute of 20kw use. I am willing to spend extra time in this car just to not use oil (Although 80% of the time I don't have to). Fascinates me, anyone else?

 

[Herm]

a 200watt heated motorcycle vest would keep you toasty for 4 days

 

[GRA]

While I agree with all the recommendations about carrying emergency gear in your car in cold weather (I'm a cross-country skier, so I always have that stuff with me anytime I head up to the mountains), it misses the point. Most people expect a car will transport them on their routine trips with minimal drama, anxiety or discomfort, with a reasonable allowance for predictable emergencies, absent-mindedness or just plain stupidity. For a car with the range of the Leaf, in winter that routine trip range is quite short. I confess I cringe every time I read some Leaf enthusiast talking about heated gloves/vests, aftermarket 12-volt heaters, down jackets and the like, just so they can avoid using the provided heater in their $35,000 car in order to get to and from work. If EVs are ever going to be mainstream, this kind of required behavior isn't going to cut it.

Since human stupidity, at least, is a constant, there will be some number of people (I expect a greater percentage than is the case with ICEs) who get themselves stranded this winter, won't have the emergency supplies, etc. Aside from the risks to their health, this is bad PR for EVs. We're already seeing posts on MNL about people being surprised by how much their range is reduced by cold temps and heater use, and we're hardly into winter yet. And people who post here are likely better-informed about the car's capabilities than owners who don't read this site. Look at stylekyle's posts. What if he'd already bought the car and had to discover its limits the hard way? Do you think he'd be pleased, and would recommend EVs to people?

I think there is a strong case to be made that cold-weather EVs, at least with their current very limited battery capacities, should have auxiliary liquid-fueled heaters. Whether that fuel is butane, propane, CNG, gas, diesel, or bio-fuel is something that doesn't need to be decided here.

 

[rmay635703]

Nissan initially marketed the LEAF as a nominal "100 mile range" car. Even made claims of 135 miles+ under "ideal" conditions.

The Prius originally stated it would achieve 61mpg until the government made them change it, how many here get 61mpg with the prius?

It's sad to see so few able to actually get to, and beyond, the 100 mile barrier.

[/quote]

I agree but not because of any fault of the leaf,

So few drivers are trained to drive efficiently that it is VERY dissappointing that almost no one is capable of controlling their impulses and achieving the EPA on most any car.

I can consistantly average in winter on short trips over 45mpg with a Cobalt in mixed city/rural driving. In the summer over 52mpg, it is rated 32mpg mixed/combined.

If I can do it, I think anyone can and should.

 

[abasile]

The Prius originally stated it would achieve 61mpg until the government made them change it, how many here get 61mpg with the prius?

I don't find it all that hard to get 61 mpg out of our Prius. Then again, I hardly ever drive the Prius these days; that privilege goes to a member of the family who needs much more range than the LEAF offers.

 

[Herm]

Most people expect a car will transport them on their routine trips with minimal drama, anxiety or discomfort, with a reasonable allowance for predictable emergencies, absent-mindedness or just plain stupidity.

I guess most people will be shocked that they NEVER have to visit a gas station or pay $100 to fill up the tank.. for that pleasure many people are willing to plug in their 200watt heated motorcycle vest.

I believe a human body produces about 100watts of heat, so that motorcycle vest is pretty toasty.

 

[abasile]

I guess most people will be shocked that they NEVER have to visit a gas station or pay $100 to fill up the tank.. for that pleasure many people are willing to plug in their 200watt heated motorcycle vest.

I've been surprised that my wife, totally of her own volition, has at times chosen to spend hours parked at public "chargers" just for the pleasure of not paying a cent for gasoline on drives longer than the single-charge range of the LEAF. She could easily drive our gas-sipping Prius instead. Driving electric really is hard to give up. My empathy for those who had "their" EV1s crushed by GM has only increased. When you think about it, carrying extra winter clothing or wearing a heated vest is not much of a sacrifice at all, if that's what it takes to starve the terrorists and treat our home planet better.

As for the original topic of this thread, yes, I'm hoping to attempt 100 miles on a single charge one of these days. Circling Big Bear Lake, CA a few times might do it. The altitude (ranging from 6100' to 7100') will help, but the cold won't. The challenge will be to leave enough charge to traverse the hills between Big Bear and my home at the end of the drive.

 

[DaveEV]

The Prius originally stated it would achieve 61mpg until the government made them change it, how many here get 61mpg with the prius?

No, the government made Toyota use the 61 mph number because that's what the Prius got under the older EPA tests which ended up being a bit optimistic for most people on the city cycle. Automobile manufacturers are only allowed to use EPA estimates when advertising fuel economy.

 

[Navin]

GRA makes some excellent points. My wife was taking the car out the other night and I gave her a crash course in how to manage the heater. I don't want my wife to have to think about the heater. I think many of us have been surprised at just how big a drain the heater is on the battery and I don't like how long it takes to get hot instead of lukewarm. I agree that there needs to be a better solution. Personally I would rather not have any fossil fuels (propane, etc) in or on the car. I give Nissan credit for bringing the Leaf to market and for commiting to large volume as well. They talk the talk and walk the walk. No one else is doing that for EVs. For such a marvel of technology the heater should use less energy and get hot faster. I have an electric space heater that will heat an entire bedroom, only uses 1300W and gets hot instantly. What would be so hard about Nissan putting something like that in the car instead of the system they're using? Yes, I've seen other posts where there could be safety concerns, I don't see it. If they can build an electric car, they can find an efficient way to heat it so we all have a shot at joining the 100 mile club in winter without freezing our toes off! With that said I am still thrilled with this car!

 

[Caracalover]

I don't like how long it takes to get hot instead of lukewarm.
With that said I am still thrilled with this car!

I think the winter package is Nissan's answer to this. I wonder about the lukewarm heater you mention - are you in Eco or D?

Eco does not give you full heat.

 

[Navin]

Usually Eco, but even in D if I don't preheat the car it takes several minutes to get hot air, just like an ICE. I was hoping for instant heat.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

For such a marvel of technology the heater should use less energy and get hot faster. I have an electric space heater that will heat an entire bedroom, only uses 1300W and gets hot instantly. What would be so hard about Nissan putting something like that in the car instead of the system they're using?

ya, them Nissan Engineers!! what a bunch of idiots! such simple solutions abound, i cant believe they could miss such an easy...

hmm, then again. you are using a plug in the wall 1300 watt heater? bet your house is a bit more insulated than the car is. betting you didnt start heating up the bedroom at 35º either and betting if you did you would find it still a bit nippy after 20 minutes.

there is always a better way, no doubt. but might not be as easy as we think it is.

 

[Navin]

True! The volume of air in the car vs. the room is a lot smaller though. And if I were to sit 12 inches away from the space heater I wouldn't care as much as what the temp on the other side of the room is. You're right, the Nissan engineers have done an awesome job--I just need to vent a little about the heater. I'll get used to it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Nothing wrong with venting! That get em thinking about a better wheel. As far as t he heat battle have you fried a small 12 volt heafer? Works well for me if iam only one in car. I also ha e heater pad for car that works's ell. Both use hRdly any power

 

[thefortunes]

Nothing wrong with venting! That get em thinking about a better wheel. As far as t he heat battle have you fried a small 12 volt heafer? Works well for me if iam only one in car. I also ha e heater pad for car that works's ell. Both use hRdly any power

Dave,

Have you been dRin kiNg? Just kidding :lol: