Why Did You Choose the Nissan Leaf over the Chevy Volt?

[spike09]

I've never understood the LEAF versus Volt question. They are not in the same category

Agreed but the fact is the Leaf and Volt were the first mass-produced EV produced to come around in a long time. The media keeps making the connection while Nissan and Chevy tries their best to differentiate themselves. The damage is done and who knows how long it will take for the public to differentiate a Plug-In Electric Hybrid from a Plug-in Electric.

A better question would be "Why did you choose the Nissan Leaf over the Mitsubishi i, Tesla S, Ford Focus, Coda Sedan, Honda Fit, BMW ActiveE 3, etc"?

 

[kubel]

[*]The transmission was much more complex than I expected, and wasn't a pure serial drive at all

I've yet to fully understand why that is so important to people. The Prius isn't a fully serial system either. Obviously it was designed to be as efficient as possible when running on gasoline and at highway speeds, it makes perfect sense. There would be significant energy loss by constantly converting gas to electricity and then electricity to motive power. As far as I'm concerned, if the car is running on gas because it is out of power in the batteries, then it needs to be as efficient as possible.

That being said.. I still have great hopes that we'll see some serial hybrids that run on micro-turbines for electricity generation. I think in that case, it would have to be a true serial system, but not necessarily.

I was a Volt fan from the very beginning, and what lured me to it was the fact that it was promised to be a full performance electric car with a range extending gas generator. To me, the technology was exciting because it *completely* removed gas from the car as long as you didn't go over the batteries range. So it was to be a pure electric drive vehicle with an emergency generator for long distances. Meaning if I only drove 40 miles per day, I would never use gas. This is in contrast to parallel hybrids which will have dependency on gas in certain or all situations.

But as soon as they announced mechanical linkage between the genset and the wheels, it was almost a betrayal to the serial hybrid idea, and thus to me as a supporter. It was no longer a pure electric car with a genset, it was now a battery dominant, gas dependent parallel hybrid. The separation between gas and electricity ceased to exist. Now we have a car where if it's cold, the gas motor will kick in. If you are driving it hard, even at 30MPH, the gas motor will kick in. If you're climbing a hill, the gas motor will kick in. Don't believe it? Run a Volt out of gas, charge up the battery to 100%, and go driving. "Propulsion Power is Reduced" will appear, and you will feel the difference when you try pushing it. "Full performance" electric vehicle? No. GM tried to call this "multi-mode" so as to demonstrate it's more efficient, which it very well may be. But if the gas motor kicks in before 40 miles is up and delivers power to the wheels, it destroys what made the car so special.

That's not to say the Volt isn't a technologically advanced piece of engineering. I think it is. In some ways, it may be more advanced than a pure electric. It's just not a series hybrid like it was promised to be. And it's no longer a revolutionary vehicle, because it didn't break its addiction to oil like it promised it could. E-Flex died in favor of Voltec.

My passion for the Volt has now shifted to the LEAF, because the Volt to me represents betrayal to the original idea- which advocated for a complete separation of gas from electric drive. If I had to choose a Volt or a Prius, I would choose a Volt. But if I had to choose a Volt or a LEAF, it would be a LEAF- even though it has less range.

 

[Herm]

Don't believe it? Run a Volt out of gas, charge up the battery to 100%, and go driving. "Propulsion Power is Reduced" will appear, and you will feel the difference when you try pushing it.

Does this happen all the time or just under extreme cold conditions?.. and if you have a link it would be appreciated.

 

[Roadburner440]

Kubel I will address you points... I drive my Volt VERY hard. The gas engine does not kick in under hard acceleration even in Sport Mode. The gasoline engine is also not connected to the drive wheel unders all circumstances when the engine is running in Charge Sustainment mode. The engine is mechanically linked to the wheels at higher speeds where strictly using the electric power to run the electric motor would be more inefficient than just coupling the engine to the wheels (at highway speeds). At speeds 40mph and below the engine is de-coupled from the wheels. If you have never driven one you wouldn't understand. Especially when people are staring at you at stop lights because the engine is sitting there whirring away creating power, and they think I am gunning the throttle or something. Not to mention in CS mode at low speeds the engine does not run all the time. It merely bumps the battery SOC, and will shut off until you deplete it back down to the cut off and it will run again..

Overall however your point and opinion would be correct. Just wanted to correct some of the factual things is all. I have also never seen the car operate in "reduced propulsion mode." From my understanding this happens when you deplete the battery charge, run the car out of gasoline, and then continue to drive on the emergency 3-5 miles of charge the car allows you to use beyond that (similar to the Leaf's turtle mode before it dies). Sounds more to me like you are describing my 2011 Prius than my Volt, as a lot of the statements about the engine kicking in at 30-40mph under hard acceleration for the Prius would be correct. It is one of the reasons I bought a Volt because I got tired of the way the Prius operated under certain conditions and found it to be vastly inefficient under certain circumstances. I drive the Volt everyday on the highway, and have 4409 EV miles out of 5099 total. If the engine came on under hard acceleration, highway speeds, etc then my numbers would look very different. The Volt has most certaintly broken my addiction to oil, and is the reason we are going to add a Leaf to our garage as well. Both cars have their uses. I think for the average person that does not know much about EV's the Volt makes the perfect starting point as it trains you to maximize EV use without the "range anxiety" that most would experience in a Leaf. I will admit had it not been for doing 87% of my driving in EV with the Volt I would not be considering a Leaf today.

 

[Roadburner440]

Don't believe it? Run a Volt out of gas, charge up the battery to 100%, and go driving. "Propulsion Power is Reduced" will appear, and you will feel the difference when you try pushing it.

Does this happen all the time or just under extreme cold conditions?.. and if you have a link it would be appreciated.

To answer your question there are only 4 circumstances in which the Volt's engine will come on. They are:

1.) you deplete the battery SOC (obviously)

2.) You select Mountain Mode, and the Volt will turn on the engine with 14EV miles remaining in the battery (to preserve the higher SOC for extreme mountain climbing, but it is YOUR choice)

3.) It is 25F or less outside. The Volt will run the engine to maintain an ambient coolant temp to help warm the Lithium battery cells.

4.)You power the Volt "On," and open the hood. The Volt will run the engine to alert you that the car is powered on and has HV power flowing through the lines so you do not accidentally work on the car (scared me the first time I opened the hood to show someone the powertrain with the car on and it happened).

I have not run my Volt out of gas. I came close driving it from Florida to Virginia (it was 2AM, and really did not want to be bothered with buying gas). However I did charge the car to 100% and it runs just fine. It is NEVER advisable to run the car out of gas, nor do I wish to try it. This would be similar to turtling your Leaf on purpose. However if you wish to try it you can put gas in the car, charge it up, and it will be 100% ok just like recharging your Leaf after killing it in turtle mode. If you need the full 40 miles and 300+ miles of gas range then you probably should stop to put some gas in the tank. Just sayin.

 

[coqui]

To me Volt vs Leaf came down to only two things: (1) Leaf is cheaper (2) Don't trust GM.

 

[CarZin]

I am a Volt owner, and know a lot of Leaf owners. My wife loves the Volt, and told me should would consider all electric now that she has seen the car operate. We couldnt afford 2 Volts, but could swing a Leaf. Of course, she just bought a 2012 Honda CRV, so thats likely not to happen for a while. However, she is extra disgusted filling up more than once a week, when I have owned the Volt for 2 months and only put 3.2 gallons it after traveling 3500 miles, so she might trade that sucker in after a year.

I have been surprised by how far I am able to get the 10 kilowatt hours to stretch. I commute 70 miles a day, all electric, and charge at work. There hasn't been a situation yet, other than the drive home from the dealership, where the Leaf would have failed to provide range. But I know that time is coming...

I am rooting for both cars to succeed.

 

[JPWhite]

For me it was just too expensive and unavailable in my market at the time the opportunity to buy a LEAF came up.

I could not make a financial case for the Volt, and I did do the math prior to deciding.
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com/2011/03/28/nissan-leaf-scrunching-the-numbers/

 

[JPWhite]

I am rooting for both cars to succeed.

+1

 

[SanDust]

But as soon as they announced mechanical linkage between the genset and the wheels, it was almost a betrayal to the serial hybrid idea

Goofy reasoning to me. The mechanical linkage just makes the car more efficient. This isn't religion. If you get better MPG then why not do it? You seem to be saying that it would be better to have a less efficient car so long as it was a "pure" serial. Obviously that isn't the case. After the battery was depleted a "pure" serial would run the engine using gas at all speeds even when the car was stopped. The Volt switches to battery mode at lower speeds and doesn't run the engine. Are you seriously saying it would be better to burn more gas than less?

No first hand experience but your claim that you can feel a difference in the drive is certain to be false. If the car is running off the battery then the engine never runs. So no difference if you have a full battery and the engine isn't running or if you have a full battery and the engine isn't running and it can't run because there is no gas. What would the difference be?

 

[JJnHAWAII]

I looked at purchasing the Volt after the Leaf was sold out, but the dealer markup and terrible customer service killed the deal for me.

The dealers wanted a 7K markup on the Volt on top of the already outrages price for a four seater car.

Reason for Leaf:
All electric - almost zero maintenance , no gas
No haggle buying experience with the firm online quote system. (The dealer did try to sell me an extended warranty for double what everyone else paid for it, but I turned it down)
Purchased the Leaf at MSRP as advertised.

Reason against the Volt:
Higher initial cost, low fuel economy after battery depletion, and the outragious dealer markups. - 7K over MSRP! (I participated in an online forum with an executive from Chevy concerning the Volt, during which I told him about my experience and how this has most likely killed a lot of their potential business. He never responded to my comment, but did respond to the comment that I really liked the technology behind the Volt. Go figure....

I'm still a Volt fan, but it may be destined to fail once the vehicles like the Leaf have longer ranges and the charging network is more robust.

Plus, the Leaf is such a comfortable, quiet ride. My wife and I fell in love the first test drive. (We are anxiously anticipating the extended battery range of maybe a 2013 or 2014 model, so we can buy another Leaf)

 

[DaveEV]

But as soon as they announced mechanical linkage between the genset and the wheels, it was almost a betrayal to the serial hybrid idea

Goofy reasoning to me. The mechanical linkage just makes the car more efficient. This isn't religion. If you get better MPG then why not do it? You seem to be saying that it would be better to have a less efficient car so long as it was a "pure" serial. Obviously that isn't the case. After the battery was depleted a "pure" serial would run the engine using gas at all speeds even when the car was stopped. The Volt switches to battery mode at lower speeds and doesn't run the engine. Are you seriously saying it would be better to burn more gas than less?

+1 - When the battery runs low, I am all for using the gas engine as efficiently as possible. Make it more like a Prius if that gets it closer to Prius efficiency in charge sustaining mode. Seems crazy to rule the Volt out because they made an engineering decision that increased efficiency when the battery runs out.

 

[jimcmorr]

I just placed my order last Saturday and I am with nubo:

I want PURE Electric! And to be done with gasoline, spark plugs, catalytic converters, exhaust gas recirculation, fuel pumps, ignition coils, fumes, and gas stations. No half measures. I don't want to contribute any more of my money to people that don't like me, for no good reason, making them wealthy beyond reason!

Other points for me chosing the LEAF are that I don't trust General Motors. The Volt was vapor ware for so long. I was extremely happy that Nissan brought the LEAF to market before the Volt.

 

[Smidge204]

+1 - When the battery runs low, I am all for using the gas engine as efficiently as possible.

I think the bigger disappointment was that a GM originally claimed that this "Never" happened, and to this day they are extremely reluctant to acknowledge that the engine can and will be mechanically coupled directly to the wheels under some circumstances. Probably because that makes the Volt sound like a hybrid - which is it - and they want to avoid the term "hybrid" least people start comparing it to the Prius... which they are anyway.

Anyway, I'm n0t a LEAF owner... I'm waiting for my current car to actually need replacing before I'm in the market. However the LEAF is currently my #1 option because, like many others, I'd rather have a full and proper electric vehicle. I also admire Nissan for being much more honest about the vehicle and its capabilities, and for having the balls to commit to the electric car for global marketing.
=Smidge=

 

[smkettner]

[*]The transmission was much more complex than I expected, and wasn't a pure serial drive at all

I've yet to fully understand why that is so important to people.

Have you ever kept a car long enough to pay for a rebuild? I cringe what it must cost for the new 8 speed automatics. OTOH I have never had a gearbox such as a manual transmission or a differential give up.

 

[planet4ever]

e. The transmission was much more complex than I expected, and wasn't a pure serial drive at all

I've yet to fully understand why that is so important to people.

Have you ever kept a car long enough to pay for a rebuild? I cringe what it must cost for the new 8 speed automatics. OTOH I have never had a gearbox such as a manual transmission or a differential give up.

In all fairness, the transmission in the Volt is really just a planetary gear, which is topologically what a differential is. However, it does have a couple of associated clutches, and more than once I have had to replace clutches in stick-shift cars. In this case I believe the clutches are inside the transmission case, which would increase the cost.

Ray

 

[smkettner]

Yes and usually the hard parts in a regular automatic are just fine also.
Rebuild kit is cheap. Labor to remove, open, replace parts, close, install correctly is the killer.
Anyway I am glad not to have all that stuff.

 

[Nubo]

I looked at purchasing the Volt after the Leaf was sold out, but the dealer markup and terrible customer service killed the deal for me.

The dealers wanted a 7K markup on the Volt on top of the already outrages price for a four seater car. ...

Even with all of the pre-ordering missteps by Nissan, to their credit they did get this part of the equation right by taking LEAF inventory out of dealers' control to avoid the gouging of early adopters. Very high marks for whomever at Nissan stood their ground for this method.

 

[JeffN]

In all fairness, the transmission in the Volt is really just a planetary gear, which is topologically what a differential is. However, it does have a couple of associated clutches, and more than once I have had to replace clutches in stick-shift cars.

The clutches in a Volt are the kind in automatic transmissions and are different and usually more durable than the kind in a manual transmission which are essentially a maintenance item that is expected to be replaced at some point like brake shoes. Of course, automatic transmissions are known to fail as well. Supposedly the Volt actively manages the motor speeds during transitions to minimize the stresses on the clutches as they engage and release (unlike a conventional automatic transmission).

Time will tell.

 

[JeffN]

I think the bigger disappointment was that a GM originally claimed that this "Never" happened, and to this day they are extremely reluctant to acknowledge that the engine can and will be mechanically coupled directly to the wheels under some circumstances. Probably because that makes the Volt sound like a hybrid - which is it - and they want to avoid the term "hybrid" least people start comparing it to the Prius... which they are anyway.

I completely agree.

GM got many thing right on the Volt but they repeatedly botched the marketing/messaging. Calling it an EREV was a good move because that term really does communicate something useful but they should have been upfront from the beginning that it is a full-power electric vehicle until the battery runs down and then it turns into a Prius-like hybrid but with a bigger battery and electric motor. Instead they confused people by pretending that it somehow wasn't a hybrid.

GM has a twisted history on hybrid technology. They were very active in developing the technology and filed the modern patents that describe the most successful essential hybrid design family. GM filed a series of patents on one, two, three and four mode hybrid transmission designs in the mid-90's. The GM one mode input-split patent describing the essentials of the Prius transmission was filed in early 1995 (before Toyota filed theirs) and the two-mode soon after. GM's Allison Transmission began commercializing a two mode hybrid transmission for busses and trucks nearly a decade ago and they downsized that into the transmission used in their large SUV and pickup hybrids for 2008. Good stuff except that large SUV and pickup truck buyers aren't exactly environmental early adopter types.... GM executives trash-talking the Prius in the early years didn't help their image either.

I'm a happy Volt owner and I think it is a great leading-edge product design which can leverage battery improvements well over the next decade. But, I wish GM would also downscale and put out a one mode clutch-less hybrid transmission for small and midsize cars and take on Toyota and Ford with highly efficient plugless gasoline vehicles. And blended hybrid plugins. And all-electrics. Conventional gassers need to be moved off into museums and history books already.