Nissan's Broken Promise

[4Him]

I called my local dealer, Robbins, here in Houston to check the availability/price of 24 kWh batteries. I did this not to actually purchase one but in order to confirm my suspicion, based on some of the threads I have seen, that Nissan does not make these anymore; I did this to load my gun to continue my conversation/argument with Nissan corporate regarding their broken 2014 commitment to a $5400 replacement battery . I did this two years ago and was told they would have to check their supplier for price, which they did, and then told me they were $8k. The parts department told me they were unable to check availability and that I would have to bring the car in to their service dept.! So I called service to find out why this is so over the top stupid. They didn't know but said the tech has to check the car out. I said check the car for what? The fact that I have a 1/2 life battery and want to purchase a new one? She said that's how it works. So I asked how much that would cost and she said nothing. But it will cost me 3 days of leaving my car in the shop; I'm like can't I make an appointment and she said the appointment is to talk to a service adviser!!!!!!!!!! Anyway, she did manage to get the price out of the tech: $12k!!!!!!!!!!! My dear forum friends, do yourself a favor, NEVER EVER BUY A NISSAN AGAIN, and tell those you love as well.

 

[Drew21]

Take a breath dude. There are reasonable expectations and then there's the real world.

I'm pretty sure that 2015 was the last year sold with the 24 kWh battery. So, that's 10 (production) years since they stopped putting them in cars. As far as I know, the best HV battery warranty Nissan offered was 8 years/100K miles, so we're also past that period for any Leaf sold with the 24 kWh battery.

Should Nissan keep producing 24 kWh battery packs as replacements (or even for sale) for the dwindling number of 2011-15 Leafs on the road? In your opinion, how long should they keep producing them after all warranties for those cars have expired? For as long as any 2011-15 Leaf is in service? That could potentially be decades.

That just doesn't make financial sense, either for Nissan or for the consumers who would be asked to pay a much higher initial price to cover the lifetime battery warranty and replacement guarantee that you seem to be advocating for. How much would you be willing to pay for a new Leaf to guarantee the service you seem to want?

If you had HV battery issues when your Leaf was under warranty and didn't deal with it at that time, how is that Nissan's fault? If your Leaf developed HV battery issues after the warranty period expired, how is that Nissan's problem?

I have a professional camera that originally sold for something like $5500. Top of the line, fully guaranteed against pretty much any damage for the warranty period. Guess what, the manufacturer won't touch it anymore because 1) they don't have any parts because 2) it originally sold in 2007. This doesn't bother me because I understand that if a nearly 100 year old camera company had to stock every part for every item they ever produced they probably wouldn't survive.

 

[cornbinder89]

Also there are alternatives, all have been discussed many times. Unless you had a contract in writing that said you could purchase a replacement battery for $X anytime in the future, then I don't think there is much to complain about.
Yes companies make predictions on costs and availability of replacement parts, that isn't a guaranty of such unless it exactly states it in writing as a guaranty.
Fact is, when my 24Kwh gives up, I will be looking to replace it with a 40 Kwh or what is available at that time, not look for new 24Kwh. I know approximately what the cost of that would be today, but not at sometime in the future, it may be more, it may be less or it may stay the same.

 

[roussir]

$5400 adjusted for inflation from 2012 is $7,200. Adjusted for increased capacity from 24 to 40 kWh (the modern version of the same size battery) is exactly $12,000. Too bad the price did not decrease per kWh but I understand batteries are in demand so prices stay high.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Still not as bad as how hard the mini dealer screwed me when I got that thing. I ordered one and they sold the one I ordered to another person.

 

[4Him]

Take a breath dude. There are reasonable expectations and then there's the real world.

I'm pretty sure that 2015 was the last year sold with the 24 kWh battery. So, that's 10 (production) years since they stopped putting them in cars. As far as I know, the best HV battery warranty Nissan offered was 8 years/100K miles, so we're also past that period for any Leaf sold with the 24 kWh battery.

Should Nissan keep producing 24 kWh battery packs as replacements (or even for sale) for the dwindling number of 2011-15 Leafs on the road? In your opinion, how long should they keep producing them after all warranties for those cars have expired? For as long as any 2011-15 Leaf is in service? That could potentially be decades.

That just doesn't make financial sense, either for Nissan or for the consumers who would be asked to pay a much higher initial price to cover the lifetime battery warranty and replacement guarantee that you seem to be advocating for. How much would you be willing to pay for a new Leaf to guarantee the service you seem to want?

If you had HV battery issues when your Leaf was under warranty and didn't deal with it at that time, how is that Nissan's fault? If your Leaf developed HV battery issues after the warranty period expired, how is that Nissan's problem?

I have a professional camera that originally sold for something like $5500. Top of the line, fully guaranteed against pretty much any damage for the warranty period. Guess what, the manufacturer won't touch it anymore because 1) they don't have any parts because 2) it originally sold in 2007. This doesn't bother me because I understand that if a nearly 100 year old camera company had to stock every part for every item they ever produced they probably wouldn't survive.

"Take a breath dude"? Completely disrespectful.

 

[knightmb]

My dear forum friends, do yourself a favor, NEVER EVER BUY A NISSAN AGAIN, and tell those you love as well.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news for you, but you've come to the wrong place with your message. I don't think Nissan is special or should be given a pass on bad business practices, but the same complaint can be made for any vehicle manufacturer out there. Plenty of hate for Ford, Chevy, Tesla, etc about their EV line. This forum isn't really a place to make a stand against corporate greed or dealership lies. This is more a technical place for people to help each other understand the limitations of the Leaf and how to best optimize what it can and can not do. I could run down a long list of things I don't like about my Leaf EV as easily as the next person, but battery technology moves so fast, why would anyone want to simply replace the 24 kWh battery they have when a 40 kWh battery pack is nearly (not 100% technically) plug n' play with better battery tech and higher range? I understand that cost is relevant of course as well as "good enough for me" if someone could just take the same battery tech from the 40 kWh and just chop it down to a 24 kWh size it would find people that can take full advantage of this as well.

If you come here to vent, you're about a decade late because you'll will find plenty of frustrated Leaf owners of the very first model years have let loose on this forum long ago about their issues with Nissan. It doesn't help the current Leaf owners today that are having success with their experience. Just my $0.02.

 

[SageBrush]

I'm pretty sure that 2015 was the last year sold with the 24 kWh battery. So, that's 10 (production) years since they stopped putting them in cars. As far as I know, the best HV battery warranty Nissan offered was 8 years/100K miles, so we're also past that period for any Leaf sold with the 24 kWh battery.

You have multiple obvious mistakes in your Nissan defense

1. Nissan did not stop supplying 24 kWh batteries today
2. The last US model with a 24 kWh pack was the 2016 LEAF 'S' model,
3. The 8 year defect warranty started with car sale date, not manufacturer date
4. You presume that the US is the world

 

[Bombastinator2]

One thing to keep in mind Nissan dealers and Nissan are not the same companies. If you had a 10/100k warranty issue the thing is out of warranty on its 100,000th mile whether the time period is up or not. A car bought in 2015 should still be in the 10 year period, but the vast majority of them will have passed 100k long ago. If the warranty is not being honored it’s a serious problem, but so far I’m not seeing that this is the case. This appears to be a thing where you believe you were guaranteed a specific price for a new battery. Who made this guarantee? If it was the manufacturer they likely won’t renegotiate and the issue is with the dealer. If the guarantee was made by the dealer you’ll want it in writing and it is an issue for small claims court.

This whole thing smells to me of lawyers and legal fees. History will matter.

Given what I have seen I suspect it is likely a misunderstanding of minutia of the guaranty on your part. There could be a loophole they are leaping through. I do not know though. This reminds me a bit of the whole “buy a harrier jet with proof of purchase tabs” thing that went down a few years ago. This is the kind of thing where you absolutely have to have your ducks in a row.

 

[Drew21]

You have multiple obvious mistakes in your Nissan defense

1. Nissan did not stop supplying 24 kWh batteries today
2. The last US model with a 24 kWh pack was the 2016 LEAF 'S' model,
3. The 8 year defect warranty started with car sale date, not manufacturer date
4. You presume that the US is the world

I wasn't trying to defend Nissan. I was attempting to defend logic and reasonable expectations of the relationship between the manufacturer of a product and the consumer of that product.

I don't think I indicated when Nissan stopped supplying 24 kWh batteries (because I don't know) except to suggest that I don't think they're making them currently. Does Nissan still produce 24 kWh batteries for replacement or sale?

Thanks for clarifying about 2015 vs 2016 for the 24 kWh battery. I did write "I'm pretty sure" and didn't say "I'm an expert on Leaf model years."

As best as I can count on my fingers, the OP's 2014 Leaf was both produced and sold more than 8 years ago, so I'm still confident that it is past the warranty period.

I definitely don't presume that the U.S. is the world. To be honest, I'm not really sure what you're suggesting or how the U.S./world dichotomy is relevant to this discussion. Are you saying that there are different Leaf battery warranties in other parts of the world?

 

[Snakebitten]

Ahhh the risks of being an early adopter of BEV.

I know that the folks who have had multiple BEVs, or have been driving them for several years, wouldn't feel like it's still early adopter era. But honestly, it still is. It's a ~2% of the population still, here in the good Ole ICE USA?

Those big expensive batteries are the EV ante at the poker table. Both for the manufacturer and the consumer.

My own personal opinion, as meaningless as it might be, is that a Leaf is a pretty cheap way to dabble, or to dip your toes in the EV water. I've read a ton of posts on this forum where the worst battery experiences with the Gen1 Leafs were still incredibly low lo$$ endeavors when the ultimate solution was finally met. Either by buyback or successful battery replacement.

Of course this conclusion is in context of how much the average total cost of ownership of an ICE vehicle is, especially if it had major engine failure in/out of warranty.

I thought I got a good deal on a lightly used immaculate 2018 Leaf a few months ago. And it IS a good "healthy" 6 year old Leaf. But I've now watched the market for the same car tumble by about $5000 since then. So $18k wasn't nearly the deal I first believed.
Yet, I remind myself that it still was a low cost for a fully dolled up (SL) car with all the creature comforts and absolutely inexpensive operating per mile.
I have a 2012 F150 that if/when the motor/transmission finally need replacement, arguably the equivalent of a new EV battery, it will cost me as much as I paid for the Leaf.

It's all relative, in my mind anyways.

 

[sempervirens]

Nissan will not sell 40kwh batteries to folks needing a replacement for a 24kwh (or has that changed?). Yes Nissan should support people who want to continue driving their 13yr old cars why is that expectation unreasonable - rest of car is good for another 100k miles easily. And those 2011 owners were the pioneers with the giant zero emissions stickers - not interested in buying whole car when a new battery will do. 2011 owner here - 115k miles, warranty replacement at 4 bars loss / 60kmiles in 2017. Now at around 30 miles range with around 4 bars loss on 2nd battery (which only will charge around 9kwh). Borderline undrivable for every day errands.

 

[knightmb]

Nissan will not sell 40kwh batteries to folks needing a replacement for a 24kwh (or has that changed?).

Nissan will sell you the batteries, I've checked on this for years, but you won't get any warranty for DIY projects. That's why everyone usually gets a used battery from a wrecked Leaf and hope the battery did not sustain damage. I have relatives who want to upgrade their 24 kWh Leaf to 40 kWh, but have trouble locating a used battery versus just ordering one and having it delivered to the dealership at a much greater cost and no warranty to boot.

 

[Drew21]

Yes Nissan should support people who want to continue driving their 13yr old cars why is that expectation unreasonable - rest of car is good for another 100k miles easily.

I'm all for keeping vehicles on the road for as long as possible, but can we agree that at some point in the potential lifespan of any vehicle the responsibility for doing so passes completely from the manufacturer to the owner? We might have different ideas about what that time frame is, but the manufacturers make their feelings pretty clear based on the mileage/time terms of the warranties they provide.

If you have a problem (e.g., battery failure in an EV) with a 2 -year-old car, or a 5-year-old car, then you're fully justified in expecting the manufacturer to take care of you. But if you're dealing with a 13-year-old car, or a 10-year-old car in the case of the O.P., and your problem is with a component of the car that specifically came with an 8-year warranty, it actually does seem unreasonable (to me) to expect the manufacturer to replace that component for free or even at a discounted rate over cost (probably + profit as well).

Note that Nissan doesn't preclude anyone from fixing their out-of-warranty Leaf so as to keep using it. You can source a used 24kWh (or upgraded 30 or 40 kWh) battery for a 10-year-old Leaf and put it in yourself or pay someone else to do it, perhaps even including your local Nissan dealership. But Nissan is almost certainly not going to do it for free or at some sort of discounted rate.

 

[SageBrush]

I'm all for keeping vehicles on the road for as long as possible, but can we agree that at some point in the potential lifespan of any vehicle the responsibility for doing so passes completely from the manufacturer to the owner? We might have different ideas about what that time frame is, but the manufacturers make their feelings pretty clear based on the mileage/time terms of the warranties they provide.

What a ridiculous assertion. The manufacture -- customer relationship does not end when the warranty lapses, the obligation to fix manufacturing defects wthout cost to the customer ends.

Well, unless we are talking about Nissan. Then the warranty becomes a negotiation

 

[Drew21]

What a ridiculous assertion. The manufacture -- customer relationship does not end when the warranty lapses, the obligation to fix manufacturing defects wthout cost to the customer ends.

Well, unless we are talking about Nissan. Then the warranty becomes a negotiation

To clarify, in your mind when does the manufacturer - customer relationship end?

If I find a 1929 Model T with a stuck motor, would you suggest I run to Ford looking for help? Maybe use lots of exclamation points and ALL CAPS!!!!!! when writing to them.

What about a 1972 Corvette with a leaky t-top roof and rusted out rear subframe? What if I find the DeLorean I've wanted since I was a kid and it turns out to be a turd that won't hit 88 mph or travel through time?

Like the O.P., I have an older Leaf. Mine's a 2014 and I think his is as well based on the context of his post. Here is the summary page from the 2014 warranty booklet.



Here's the specific language for the HV battery.




When I read that, the Nissan - customer relationship seems pretty clear to me regarding the HV battery warranty and also in regards to what Nissan considers to be a battery defect for which they are liable. When you say the warranty is a negotiation, what do you mean? Are you questioning the definition of time itself?

If my 2014 battery goes kaput tomorrow, that's just bad luck for me. I knew about the warranty period when we got our Leaf about 2.5 years ago. Not having a warranty is a known risk of owning any older/used vehicle. For many of us, that's a tradeoff that we have to accept in order to find a vehicle we can afford. When/if our Leaf battery falls below a level that works for our needs, we will choose whether to sell it or replace the battery. As noted above, multiple battery replacement options are currently available to consumers if they're willing to pay. This includes the O.P. having the option of working with his local dealership. The O.P. may not like the cost, but you can't argue that Nissan has taken away the option of HV battery replacement for older Leafs.

If having a warranty is important to a customer, manufacturers will gladly sell you a new vehicle each year or lease you a new vehicle every couple years with the maximum available warranty coverage.

 

[RodA56]

The manufacturers warranty is designed to protect the manufacturer. It limits their liability. If it happens that the warranty also provides a benefit to the customer, for example, a new or repaired traction battery, then that's good for the customer. The manufacturer may choose to honor a warranty claim if the time or mileage limits have been exceeded by a small amount, but it's entirely at their discretion.

I just found out this morning that the dealer has requested a new battery for our 2017 Leaf which we purchased in April 4 years ago with 7 bars. The battery was replaced within a week or so of the purchase date. Whether we actually see a new battery remains to be seen.

 

[cornbinder89]

T

I just found out this morning that the dealer has requested a new battery for our 2017 Leaf which we purchased in April 4 years ago with 7 bars. The battery was replaced within a week or so of the purchase date. Whether we actually see a new battery remains to be seen.

Anybody else have trouble figuring out what is being said here? I can't tell if his battery was replaced 4 years ago in April, a week or so of his purchase, or if it has been replaced recently and he still doesn't know if it has or???

 

[Joeaverage]

Stuff wears out. Take it to an independent shop that repairs EV and pay them to put a newer battery in it. Something used if you are price sensitive. My CRV is wearing out. I don't expect Honda to do anything for me as it is older than the warranty coverage, and older than ten years which is how long the gov't requires them to supply parts. In fact it is 25 years old so I rely on junkyards and the aftermarket for parts these days - although Honda does offer some parts still.

We are considering a used Leaf soon. Hoping to get 15+ years out of the battery and more importantly hope there are battery alternatives available in a decade too. Maybe the aftermarket will step up and provide a solution. At some point Dorman (I think) was selling replacement, refurbished Prius batteries for $3K or $4K. No, those won't substitute but maybe Dorman will offer other batteries too for EVs like the Leaf.

 

[cornbinder89]

There is Green Tec and Leaf Repair Network, so there are already replacement batteries.