Theism vs Atheism

[Yanquetino]

God did not create us to be robots....we have the choice to love Him or not.

WHY should we love him? He doesn't strike me as a very lovable individual. For the life of me, I can't imagine why anyone would want to spend "eternity" with the likes of him! Doing what?

 

[klapauzius]

God did not create us to be robots....we have the choice to love Him or not.

Of course nobody created us. So the question whether we are robots or have free will, per design of a creator, is really moot. The argumentation was really meant to show how absurd the whole idea of a "creator" really is. Inevitably it leads to a (by human standards, which btw are the only ones that would matter to us) rather sinister individual.

I wonder how you believers explain this all to your kids...Do you hit them with a hammer on the finger, so that they can appreciate not being in pain afterwards? Do you tell them how great it is that we have disabled and sick people, so that they can appreciate what a fine healthy body they have? And do you tell them, that all the suffering in the world is quite fine by the god, they pray to in church, because without all the diseases and the violence, the senseless suffering, the world would just be a boring place where we cannot smugly admire how "good" and "forgiving" we are ????

oh my...

 

[Smidge204]

And do you tell them, that all the suffering in the world is quite fine by the god, they pray to in church, because without all the diseases and the violence, the senseless suffering, the world would just be a boring place where we cannot smugly admire how "good" and "forgiving" we are ????

Somehow this post reminded me of the short story "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas"

http://harelbarzilai.org/words/omelas.txt

Worth a read for anyone who has the time.

God did not create us to be robots....we have the choice to love Him or not.

"Now I'm not sayin' you HAVE to love God. I'm not sayin' that at all. All I'm sayin' is that if you DON'T love God, well, maybe something bad will happen. Maybe a fella's house gets burn down by an angry mob, y'know? Run outta town and stoned to death? Maybe a fella get the plague or their city gets flooded or sumptin'. Maybe a fella end up being tortured in a pit of fire for all eternity. I'm just sayin' it's possible, y'know? But hey, you don't HAVE to love God. It's your choice. Just think 'bout it."

I always thought it interesting how well religion was described in the context of Stockholm syndrome.
=Smidge=

 

[hodad66]

"Now I'm not sayin' you HAVE to love God. I'm not sayin' that at all. All I'm sayin' is that if you DON'T love God, well, maybe something bad will happen. Maybe a fella's house gets burn down by an angry mob, y'know? Run outta town and stoned to death? Maybe a fella get the plague or their city gets flooded or sumptin'. Maybe a fella end up being tortured in a pit of fire for all eternity. I'm just sayin' it's possible, y'know? But hey, you don't HAVE to love God. It's your choice. Just think 'bout it."

I always thought it interesting how well religion was described in the context of Stockholm syndrome.
=Smidge=

fear has always been the great motivator in theology..... I'll pass

 

[Yanquetino]

The Fair Weather Friend:

 

[TonyWilliams]

The argumentation was really meant to show how absurd the whole idea of a "creator" really is. Inevitably it leads to a (by human standards, which btw are the only ones that would matter to us) rather sinister individual.

I always liked how the Star Trek aliens always had basic human-like standards. We seem to be only able to make up what is familiar to us.

 

[AndyH]

Wow, that is one piece of twisted morale...

Not at all. It's not, however, written from the perspective of the 'fallen' is it? It's seen from the 'higher perspective' of those that chose to enter the game - knowing FULL WELL IN ADVANCE what's here and exactly what/why they want to experience. And that is absolute empowerment and freedom.

So say the Nazis are the "Friendly Soul"?
You can fill in the rest..

Or, the victims family should be grateful to the murderer, because he/she showed them how much they loved e.g. their murdered child?
Remind me, why are we putting the "friendly souls" in jail?

Or killing them? Look at how twisted we humans have become in thought - "death penalty" is an oxymoron! True punishment would be to make them immortal and lock them up, not release them from the game, right?

DO you believe this seriously? Or are you just naive and think "doing something terrible" means stealing "little souls" cookies? It would be time then to open your eyes and take a look around...Maybe not in your cozy little neighborhood, but in the real world?

Sigh. And this is the problem with trying to have a heart-centered conversation with people stuck in their heads. We cannot examine bacteria with a telescope.

Walk with me for a moment. Let's step into this chess game for a minute or three. I'll be this rook - you be that knight over there. Our world is only the board. We're threatened by the obvious and declared enemy - the other color, no less! - and while you sidestep the advancing pawn and stay out of the way of that bishop, I'll continue to cover the King and protect these ranks. Fear of the moves, fear of the other characters - NO! DON'T TAKE ME OFF THE BOARD! I CAN HELP YOU WIN THIS!

Time to step up a notch - join me in the players head. Now we can see the entire board - we're no longer in a life and death struggle with any particular piece. We can oversee the entire board and work on longer-term strategy. It's a bit more complex from this level, but the entire focus is on these 64 squares.

Up a level. We're overseeing an entire conference room - there are dozens of tables with multiple boards. Our rook/knight experience multiplied by thousands. Feel the fear from the pieces 'on the front lines' and the anticipation from the land-locked pieces waiting their turn? How about the feelings from all the players as they square off against their opponents? That guy over there is angry - he's fighting for dear life in the endgame. Over there? One player is in a state of bliss as he zones into and is completely given over to the match. His opponent is calculating possibilities 9 steps in advance.

Up a level. We're out of the building and at about 200 feet. We cannot see the boards any longer or the players or the pieces. There's a lot going on - cars and houses and shops.

Up a level. Blue ball on a black velvet backdrop.

Now - instead of changing physical position, change frequency. Increase your energetic vibration. Waves of red, then up thru the colors to violet. Then dark but the frequency increases. What's here? What do we sense? Is anyone else here on this 'channel'? How far towards the infinity of vibration do you want to travel?

Does anyone think that they perceive the 'world' the same when they are able to move from the rook to the player to the traveler? Not a chance!

Hitler...and rapists and muggers and cereal killers. I'm not worried about them because they are not in my experience unless I attract them into my experience. In Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich" he called it magnetic attraction. Some are remembering the law of attraction today but it never really left - birds of a feather flock together - resonance. Jesus reminded us to 'ask and it is received' and 'knock and the door is opened'. The reverse is also true - if we don't want something in our experience simply do not knock! Any other option is judgement - and that's interfering in another's experience. We've been reminded of that - "judge not lest you be judged" - or we cannot limit another without limiting ourselves as well. 'What you do to the least of my creations you do to me', more or less... (Almost makes a person think we're all connected in some way...)

All the seasonings exist in the kitchen and can be used to make any dish. No, one does not have to use the garlic powder in their apple pie - but neither does one have to have the garlic powder banished from the kitchen - simply do not use it.

Consider the possibility that we're more than our physical bodies. Also consider the possibility that chanting and reciting memorized prayer simply exists to 'tie up' our logic and ego so the rest of us can connect with source without the 'hey what about me' chatter.

 

[Yanquetino]

Consider the possibility that we're more than our physical bodies

Could you please share the empirical, verifiable evidence that supports that possibility, i.e., evidence that would be admissible in a court of law?

Also, I am still wondering about statements you originally made in your analogy. How is it that we "voluntarily" sat down to play according to the rules, i.e., "chose to enter the game"? And what was our "natural state" in which certain experiences were not available to us?

 

[klapauzius]

Hitler...and rapists and muggers and cereal killers. I'm not worried about them because they are not in my experience unless I attract them into my experience.

Wow...I like these lengthy replies...It seems that people really care about this discussion. I dont care about cereal killers either :lol: Sometimes I am one myself around breakfast time. Maybe more a granola killer...

About the other stuff: This is not real. Its a nice fantasy, admitted, but it is not real. This only means you havent seen real trouble, therefore you can afford the luxury to view this as a sort of metaphysical game. This might be seen as either cynical or naive.

I'm not worried about them because they are not in my experience unless I attract them into my experience.

Read (or watch) the news! Sometimes bad things happen to good people and they certainly did not attract them. And its not a matter of closing your eyes and saying 'omm' and the problems go away. They don't, recent history, as of yesterday,
has proven that time and again.
Read this

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-attacks-shock-disgust-europe-132457718.html

and see how things like that fit into the whole religion thing. Btw, the killer in this case, was a christian fundamentalist.

 

[klapauzius]

Wow, that is one piece of twisted morale...

Not at all. It's not, however, written from the perspective of the 'fallen' is it? It's seen from the 'higher perspective' of those that chose to enter the game - knowing FULL WELL IN ADVANCE what's here and exactly what/why they want to experience. And that is absolute empowerment and freedom.

I read this again, and I am just curious how you see this, but arent you just giving an excuse for every thinkable (unthinkable) depravity...Yeah, murder, from a 'higher perspective" is just kicking someone from the "game"...Pain, suffering, unspeakable cruelty...Hey, its all a matter of the right "perspective"...How twisted is that?

I know you are a good person and dont mean it, but that is, because like any other believer, you shy away from reality. That leads inevitably to these
inconsistent constructs that religious people and mystics come up with. They all work to a point, but eventually you have to stop thinking, lest they fall apart.

Sigh. And this is the problem with trying to have a heart-centered conversation with people stuck in their heads.

This is a cliche..Even your heartfelt mysticism comes out of your head.And there is no reason, why reason should not apply to mysticism or religion or to anything. After all, it is the accepted method of perceiving reality. And if you think about it, it is the only sane method of doing so.

 

[abasile]

Wow! I was only away from the forum for less than two days, and this thread really grew! Admittedly I haven't carefully read everything that's been added, and my time on the forum is going to be very limited over the next couple weeks, for work reasons.

At this point on this thread, it appears that the primary argument being made against the existence of the God of the Bible (or perhaps a Creator in general) is that He does not seem (to some) very likable, since He allows the existence of suffering and evil even though He is capable of disallowing or halting suffering and evil.

Essentially, it seems that some of you are saying that if God exists and is truly good, then we should all be living in Heaven. In the biblical Heaven, there is no pain nor suffering, nor does anyone have the ability to sin or even contemplate sin.

Yes, God is omnipotent. However, in allowing us to choose to sin or not, or accept Jesus as God and Savior or not, you might say that God is not fully exercising His omnipotence. God wants to give everyone a choice as to whether or not to accept a "spiritual lobotomy", that is, consent to having the ability to sin taken away. Sin has no place in Heaven. If there were sin in Heaven, then it would not be Heaven. Partly to help us choose our eternal destiny, God allows us to exist in a world that is continually affected by the consequences of sin. We get to make an "informed choice".

Of course, some leave this world with very little life experience, i.e., babies that die. Some Christians believe that all babies that die automatically go to Heaven. Personally, I think that God somehow gives them an opportunity to make an "informed choice", but I can only speculate as to the mechanics of this.

 

[AndyH]

Consider the possibility that we're more than our physical bodies

Could you please share the empirical, verifiable evidence that supports that possibility, i.e., evidence that would be admissible in a court of law?

Also, I am still wondering about statements you originally made in your analogy. How is it that we "voluntarily" sat down to play according to the rules, i.e., "chose to enter the game"? And what was our "natural state" in which certain experiences were not available to us?

In a court of law? Really?! Do you really not understand that one cannot understand the personality by performing an autopsy?

Answer this: How does one measure the sound intensity from a fully loaded ground attack jet on takeoff when the only tool they have available is a wet bulb thermometer?

Court of law? Garbage in, garbage out. Wrong tool from the tool bag.

Understand?

 

[Yanquetino]

At this point on this thread, it appears that the primary argument being made against the existence of the God of the Bible (or perhaps a Creator in general) is that He does not seem (to some) very likable, since He allows the existence of suffering and evil even though He is capable of disallowing or halting suffering and evil.

No, sorry, but the primary argument is that there is no bona fide evidence for his existence. Not one shred. How logic, reason, and common sense contradict his touted character and attributes are secondary arguments.

But my questions still stand: WHY should I "love" such a being? WHY would I want to spend "eternity" with him? Doing WHAT?

 

[ttweed]

God wants to give everyone a choice as to whether or not to accept a "spiritual lobotomy", that is, consent to having the ability to sin taken away.

Unfortunately, to accept this "spiritual lobotomy," one must undergo a "rational lobotomy" and believe in his existence without evidence.

Partly to help us choose our eternal destiny, God allows us to exist in a world that is continually affected by the consequences of sin. We get to make an "informed choice".

"Informed" to me means based on true information, or factual evidence. It is not a fact that sin exists in the world because God wanted to give us a "choice." That is a belief.

TT

 

[Yanquetino]

In a court of law? Really?! Do you really not understand that one cannot understand the personality by performing an autopsy?

Answer this: How does one measure the sound intensity from a fully loaded ground attack jet on takeoff when the only tool they have available is a wet bulb thermometer?

Court of law? Garbage in, garbage out. Wrong tool from the tool bag.

Understand?

Yes, that's right: verifiable evidence, whether it would stand up in a court of law or a science lab.

And actually, thanks to those science labs, we are closer to understanding personality than ever before. No, of course an "autopsy" wouldn't suffice since the brain (and thus the individual's personality) would be dead. However, the increasingly sophisticated brain scans that neuroscientists are performing are revealing the very areas of the brain that determine and regulate personality. Were you not aware of this? As you say, the right tools for the right job.

Is it that you still believe in "dualism"? Decartes' theory that the "mind" and body are separate? What verifiable evidence, and --since you prefer-- what tool to measure that evidence, can you offer?

 

[AndyH]

About the other stuff: This is not real. Its a nice fantasy, admitted, but it is not real. This only means you havent seen real trouble, therefore you can afford the luxury to view this as a sort of metaphysical game. This might be seen as either cynical or naive.

I hope you can see the boatloads of unfounded judgement and assumptions here? You don't know a thing about me, my experiences or the way I view the world around me, but that doesn't stop you from not only assuming, but then judging.

What gives you that right?

We're in an attraction-based universe. Don't believe this? Try to think of nothing. Didn't work? Imagine a pink elephant. Now push that thought away - go ahead - push it out and make it go away. Didn't work either, did it? The only way we can remove a thought from our mind is to think about something else - we have to attract a thought or situation. This can also be seen if one looks at folks that declare 'war' on that they wish to eradicate. Doesn't work for weeds, drugs, or terror any more than one can put out a fire by adding more wood. And to add insult to injury, the 'fighters' take on the traits of those they despise...

And for this reason I'll leave this conversation. Those that can see, hear, and understand have already gotten the message.

Be well.

 

[AndyH]

In a court of law? Really?! Do you really not understand that one cannot understand the personality by performing an autopsy?

Answer this: How does one measure the sound intensity from a fully loaded ground attack jet on takeoff when the only tool they have available is a wet bulb thermometer?

Court of law? Garbage in, garbage out. Wrong tool from the tool bag.

Understand?

Yes, that's right: verifiable evidence, whether it would stand up in a court of law or a science lab.

And actually, thanks to those science labs, we are closer to understanding personality than ever before. No, of course an "autopsy" wouldn't suffice since the brain (and thus the individual's personality) would be dead. However, the increasingly sophisticated brain scans that neuroscientists are performing are revealing the very areas of the brain that determine and regulate personality. Were you not aware of this? As you say, the right tools for the right job.

Is it that you still believe in "dualism"? Decartes' theory that the "mind" and body are separate? What verifiable evidence, and --since you prefer-- what tool to measure that evidence, can you offer?

Fine. Tell me then - are your eyes still shut? Because there is no tool on the planet that can be accepted by those that will not open their eyes to see the tool.

Try this: Get an original unabridged copy of Napoleon Hill's 'Think and Grow Rich" and experiment with some of the exercises there. Or attend a "Gateway Voyage" at the Monroe Institute (or the Institute of Noetic Science). Either of these will provide you with direct experience of processes that you can control and use that are beyond your physical body. All three of these options are science and research based and completely independent of religion and spirituality.

There's a difference between 'believing' and 'knowing' - I'm talking about absolutely verifiable real-world repeatable experience. For me it's a 'known' born from first-hand experience. For you to move from disbelief to belief, you have to suspend disbelief. To move from belief to knowing you'll have to have first-hand experience.

Once that happens, I'll be glad to chat more. Until then, further conversation is meaningless.

 

[klapauzius]

About the other stuff: This is not real. Its a nice fantasy, admitted, but it is not real. This only means you havent seen real trouble, therefore you can afford the luxury to view this as a sort of metaphysical game. This might be seen as either cynical or naive.

I hope you can see the boatloads of unfounded judgement and assumptions here? You don't know a thing about me, my experiences or the way I view the world around me, but that doesn't stop you from not only assuming, but then judging.

What gives you that right?

We're in an attraction-based universe. Don't believe this? Try to think of nothing. Didn't work? Imagine a pink elephant. Now push that thought away - go ahead - push it out and make it go away. Didn't work either, did it? The only way we can remove a thought from our mind is to think about something else - we have to attract a thought or situation. This can also be seen if one looks at folks that declare 'war' on that they wish to eradicate. Doesn't work for weeds, drugs, or terror any more than one can put out a fire by adding more wood. And to add insult to injury, the 'fighters' take on the traits of those they despise...

And for this reason I'll leave this conversation. Those that can see, hear, and understand have already gotten the message.

Be well.

Why are you annoyed at being judged? Maybe I misread you, but werent you saying that
people "attract" their own fate?
This is a rather strong statement, dont you think?

 

[klapauzius]

Yes, that's right: verifiable evidence, whether it would stand up in a court of law or a science lab.

And actually, thanks to those science labs, we are closer to understanding personality than ever before. No, of course an "autopsy" wouldn't suffice since the brain (and thus the individual's personality) would be dead. However, the increasingly sophisticated brain scans that neuroscientists are performing are revealing the very areas of the brain that determine and regulate personality. Were you not aware of this? As you say, the right tools for the right job.

I second that!!!

Isnt it funny, that there is this strange disconnect between what is ok in the "real" world and in the , lets call it "spirit world"?

To put the believers to the test:

Why dont you abandon your worldly possessions, yes, including that nice electric car of yours, and wander the earth as mystics and prophets?
Your heavenly reward will offset your worldly material loss infinitely, and it will be eternal.
Certainly,by walking about naked (or near naked to serve basic decency) through freezing northern winters and scorching southern deserts, by spreading the word and doing the Lords work, you will have proven yourself to be a worthy soul?

You disagree? Why is that? You say, by sitting on the couch, enjoying your nice big screen TV, your fancy iPad and the general comforts of your well equipped and energy efficient home, you are already proving yourself?

So no need to get uncomfortable, right?
Is it possible, that this is all not about fundamental truths, but more about mental wellness?

 

[ttweed]

I wonder if the average auto forum leads to such discussions

The answer to this is "yes," especially around Christmas and Easter holidays. Here's an example from another car forum I frequent.

I have to say that the tone of this one has been much more civil than many such discussions, and it didn't begin around the aforementioned Christian holidays.

TT