Theism vs Atheism

[DaveEV]

I cannot resist putting my $.02 into this off-topic discussion

One of the best posts I've read on the topic - thanks Tom!

 

[evnow]

There is a "spectrum of theistic probability" that must be applied to adequately explain the degree of one's atheism, agnosticism, or theism. Dawkins has proposed a continuous "spectrum of probabilities" between the two extremes of opposite certainty, which can be represented by seven "milestones". These "milestones" are:

Thanks for bringing this up - though I'll move these theism posts to a different off-topic discussion.

I think in the theist community Dawkins has been demonized - even though he is one of the greatest intellectuals of our time - purely because he had the guts to write down what most of us anyway think about God - that it is a grand delusion.

For anyone interested there is a great discussion video of Dawkins and others on these topics called "Discussions with Richard Dawkins: The Four Horsemen". Don't miss this.

 

[klapauzius]

Unlike the climate change debate, nothing is really at stake here. Whether people believe in God or not does not destroy the planet (a little exaggeration...after all it will *just* get a little warmer), or does it?

 

[ttweed]

Thanks for bringing this up - though I'll move these theism posts to a different off-topic discussion.

Ya, maybe what we need is a thread entitled "What would Jesus do about AGW?" :lol:

I think in the theist community Dawkins has been demonized - even though he is one of the greatest intellectuals of our time - purely because he had the guts to write down what most of us anyway think about God - that it is a grand delusion.

Most of who? You and I are in the minority in this country, son. According to the latest Pew study, 71% of Americans believe in God (or a "Universal Spirit") and are "absolutely certain" about it. Another 17% believe and are "fairly certain." Four percent believe but are "not very certain" or "not at all certain." Only 8% do not believe in God at all, don't know, or refused to answer the question. (http://religions.pewforum.org/maps--Under the "Beliefs and Practices" map on the right, choose the topic "Belief in God or Universal Spirit").

It is no wonder that Dawkins has taken so much heat here--he is challenging the deeply held beliefs of a huge majority of people.

TT

 

[ttweed]

Unlike the climate change debate, nothing is really at stake here. Whether people believe in God or not does not destroy the planet...

I don't agree. If one believes that whatever happens is "God's will," the status quo becomes easier to maintain, and the belief that God will intervene on our behalf if things get too bad is an invitation to inaction and apathy. If you believe as many fundamentalists do that we are in the "end times" and that the apocalypse is already upon us, and that the messiah is coming soon to usher all the true believers to heaven while the rest of us burn in hell...well, I don't know what to say to that--such beliefs are usually impervious to rational argument or change.

TT

 

[klapauzius]

Unlike the climate change debate, nothing is really at stake here. Whether people believe in God or not does not destroy the planet...

I don't agree. If one believes that whatever happens is "God's will," the status quo becomes easier to maintain, and the belief that God will intervene on our behalf if things get too bad is an invitation to inaction and apathy. If you believe as many fundamentalists do that we are in the "end times" and that the apocalypse is already upon us, and that the messiah is coming soon to usher all the true believers to heaven while the rest of us burn in hell...well, I don't know what to say to that--such beliefs are usually impervious to rational argument or change.

TT

That is why I was phrasing it as a question....It makes one wonder just how bad the influence of religion really is??

BTW, I am just listening to that talk that started the original thread (I.e. the dissection of Monckton's AGW scepticism)...It is unbelievable how shameless people apparently lie (i.e. Monckton in this case) and how they can attract attention to themselves and their false messages with such lies.

 

[Smidge204]

It is true that I can't imagine that there's nothing eternal. That would seem to imply that "something" arose from "nothing".

There is a school of thought among cosmologists that the sum total of the universe is zero; and there is nothing in our current understanding of physics that prevents a universe of nothing to come from nothing! :lol:

The way I like to think of it is, you take 0 and somehow extract a +1 and a -1 - you still have a sum total of 0.

More details on this in this video of a talk given by Lawrence Krauss - oddly enough at an event hosted by The Richard Dawkins Foundation. IMHO it's worth the full hour but if you're in a rush skip to ~32min (but you'll miss the full explanation supporting this idea).
=Smidge=

 

[evnow]

Most of who? You and I are in the minority in this country, son.

In this context people who are not theists.

 

[evnow]

Unlike the climate change debate, nothing is really at stake here. Whether people believe in God or not does not destroy the planet (a little exaggeration...after all it will *just* get a little warmer), or does it?

To the extent religion determines the fate of a nation and its people, it is a vital question. No religion - no reason for Taleban or Pakistan, for eg.

Ofcouse, there will be conflicts over resources - with or without religion - but with religion it just becomes more vicious & irrational. Just the way it can happen over ideology. Esp. in the US - there is this heady mix of nationalism, racism, ultra free market ideology and religious fundamentalism - that is destroying the country & the planet (w.r.t. AGW). You take out religious fundamentalism - you are taking out the possibility of crazy people like Bush or Ahmedinejad coming to power.

 

[klapauzius]

More details on this in this video of a talk given by Lawrence Krauss - oddly enough at an event hosted by The Richard Dawkins Foundation. IMHO it's worth the full hour but if you're in a rush skip to ~32min (but you'll miss the full explanation supporting this idea).
=Smidge=

That is a pretty cool talk!

 

[abasile]

Dawkins has characterized himself as a #6.9, precisely to avoid this kind of accusation of being a "believer" himself. He does not deny any and every possibility that there is a God, he just suggests that it is very, very small.

Okay, even though I don't share Dawkins' view, I can respect that. Thank you.

Unlike the climate change debate, nothing is really at stake here. Whether people believe in God or not does not destroy the planet...

I don't agree. If one believes that whatever happens is "God's will," the status quo becomes easier to maintain, and the belief that God will intervene on our behalf if things get too bad is an invitation to inaction and apathy. If you believe as many fundamentalists do that we are in the "end times" and that the apocalypse is already upon us, and that the messiah is coming soon to usher all the true believers to heaven while the rest of us burn in hell...well, I don't know what to say to that--such beliefs are usually impervious to rational argument or change.
TT

That sort of thought/behavior pattern unfortunately seems to be common. While I do believe that Jesus is going to take believers with Him to heaven, the ultimate destination being a new Creation likely with different physical laws, that in no way relieves us of our responsibilities here and now on this Earth. Particularly as we cannot "know the day nor hour" of His coming, it is foolish (and disrespectful to the Creator) to neglect our stewardship of the Earth. Those who choose inaction and apathy likely would find a different excuse for their behavior if they couldn't (wrongfully) use religion.

To the extent religion determines the fate of a nation and its people, it is a vital question. No religion - no reason for Taleban or Pakistan, for eg.

Ofcouse, there will be conflicts over resources - with or without religion - but with religion it just becomes more vicious & irrational. Just the way it can happen over ideology. Esp. in the US - there is this heady mix of nationalism, racism, ultra free market ideology and religious fundamentalism - that is destroying the country & the planet (w.r.t. AGW). You take out religious fundamentalism - you are taking out the possibility of crazy people like Bush or Ahmedinejad coming to power.

Not all religions and ideologies are equivalent. Equating Bush with Ahmedinejad, or Christian fundamentalism with militant Islam, is crazy. While going to war in Iraq turned out to be a costly mistake, I don't really think we fought it for "religious" reasons. With or without religion, you will get crazy people in power, i.e., Stalin, Kim Jeong Il, etc., etc.

I believe our nation has been served well by its Judeo-Christian roots. I think our biggest national problem today is the breakdown in morals. Our divorce rate is sky high and countless children grow up in broken families. Personal responsibility has declined. Our youngest adults quite often possess "entitlement" attitudes and lack the work ethic that prevailed in previous generations. Borrowers are all too willing to walk away from their debts even when they can afford to pay. As a result, our nation's ability to compete globally has been compromised. Abandoning Christianity has not been good for the Western world.

 

[davewill]

I believe our nation has been served well by its Judeo-Christian roots. I think our biggest national problem today is the breakdown in morals. Our divorce rate is sky high and countless children grow up in broken families. Personal responsibility has declined. Our youngest adults quite often possess "entitlement" attitudes and lack the work ethic that prevailed in previous generations. Borrowers are all too willing to walk away from their debts even when they can afford to pay. As a result, our nation's ability to compete globally has been compromised. Abandoning Christianity has not been good for the Western world.

I'm sorry, but I haven't noticed Christians in this country to be any better about staying married than anyone else...or to be particularly noble or responsible. It may be what you aspire to, but I don't think you accomplish it any better than anyone in any other faith, or even those with none.

I also think that dumping on the young is a HUGE cop-out. I don't think the youth of the past have anything over this generation. My kids and their friends (HS and college age) see their future as bleaker economically...for good reason with cuts to public education, and seeming chronic unemployment. Most of them are therefore taking their schooling and career goals MORE seriously than I did when I was their age. It's a lot easier to be seen as "hard working" when good paying blue collar jobs are available...now being "hard working" is too often not enough.

 

[abasile]

I'm sorry, but I haven't noticed Christians in this country to be any better about staying married than anyone else...or to be particularly noble or responsible.

Unfortunately, the statistics largely support this. It seems that the decline in morals has been across the board, with only small differences attributable to faith, etc. I do find this discouraging. On the other hand, perhaps it is too easy to call oneself a Christian in this country. Quite often, Christian minorities who live under the threat of persecution take their faith and morals more seriously.

I also think that dumping on the young is a HUGE cop-out. I don't think the youth of the past have anything over this generation. My kids and their friends (HS and college age) see their future as bleaker economically...for good reason with cuts to public education, and seeming chronic unemployment. Most of them are therefore taking their schooling and career goals MORE seriously than I did when I was their age. It's a lot easier to be seen as "hard working" when good paying blue collar jobs are available...now being "hard working" is too often not enough.

I agree that being a young adult today is not easy, for the reasons you cited. However, the problems I mentioned were in existence before the current economic downturn. When I hear about parents wanting to accompany their college graduates to job interviews, or that the average age of emancipation is now about 28, that strongly suggests to me that something is wrong. I am not trying to blame the young as much as I am trying to say that I think our culture has been heading in the wrong direction. At the same time, I would like to see much more funding for higher education.

 

[klapauzius]

The happiest AND wealthiest countries on earth are, not by chance I think, also the least religious. Denmark usually makes it to the top ranks of this list, and the Danes have also a very stable society socially. So LESS religion seems to be correlated to well being.
Another example would be a look at the most religious states in the US, which happen to be the poorest, most unhealthy and unhappy.

It seems overall, judeo-christian roots are more of a hindrance than support for the well being of a civilization.

 

[downeykp]

+1 Nice argument. Agreed.

The happiest AND wealthiest countries on earth are, not by chance I think, also the least religious. Denmark usually makes it to the top ranks of this list, and the Danes have also a very stable society socially. So LESS religion seems to be correlated to well being.
Another example would be a look at the most religious states in the US, which happen to be the poorest, most unhealthy and unhappy.

It seems overall, judeo-christian roots are more of a hindrance than support for the well being of a civilization.

 

[abasile]

The happiest AND wealthiest countries on earth are, not by chance I think, also the least religious. Denmark usually makes it to the top ranks of this list, and the Danes have also a very stable society socially. So LESS religion seems to be correlated to well being. Another example would be a look at the most religious states in the US, which happen to be the poorest, most unhealthy and unhappy.

It seems overall, judeo-christian roots are more of a hindrance than support for the well being of a civilization.

I don't agree with this reasoning. First, correlation does not necessarily imply cause and effect. There are other societal factors at work here. I don't think you can compare a small, relatively homogeneous country like Denmark with the United States. As for the most religious US states, they are primarily in the South which has long had social baggage owing to slavery and a greater proportion of low skill jobs. Not all of those states are in sad shape, by the way. In particular, Texas, North Carolina, and Georgia tend to be more "religious" and yet seem to be doing relatively well economically.

I would also submit that those whose station in life is modest are statistically more likely to seek Jesus; remember the Beatitude, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven." Indeed, in recent decades Christianity has grown a great deal in developing nations.

Further, even the most nonreligious countries of the West continue to be guided by their Judeo-Christian roots at some level. Much of the morality and ethics accepted by religious and nonreligious Westerners alike has been shaped by Judaism and Christianity. A large number of nonbelievers are, to a degree greater than what they might care to admit, cultural Christians.

Also, one cannot ignore the many lives (including my own) that have been changed for the better through embracing Christ. Quite possibly, I am not any better off materially than if I had not become a Christian in my early 20s. But it seems to me that every human being has an innate desire for spirituality, to know God. I personally felt a void that could only be filled by God. Filling this void, and endeavoring (though far from perfectly) to live by biblical principles has brought immeasurable peace and joy (not necessarily happiness) to my life.

 

[klapauzius]

I don't agree with this reasoning. First, correlation does not necessarily imply cause and effect. There are other societal factors at work here.

You are right, there is not necessarily a direct cause, but it means that truly happy people do not need religion. It also means, that smart people, i.e. those who have successfully advanced their whole society, do not need religion. You might consider, that true happiness is indeed , on the scale of nations and civilizations, only attainable by enlightenment, reason and progress.

I don't think you can compare a small, relatively homogeneous country like Denmark with the United States. As for the most religious US states, they are primarily in the South which has long had social baggage owing to slavery and a greater proportion of low skill jobs. Not all of those states are in sad shape, by the way. In particular, Texas, North Carolina, and Georgia tend to be more "religious" and yet seem to be doing relatively well economically.

You are right, some of the southern states are doing economically well, yet they rank not among the happy ones...In all these places you mentioned, you cannot fail to notice a certain oppressive social climate, tightly coupled with religiosity. If you go one step further, people in theocracies like Iran or Saudi Arabia (the latter one is quite well off economically) are generally not very happy. Certainly their gods, to which they so fervently pray, do not provide them with lots of inner peace and fulfillment?

I would also submit that those whose station in life is modest are statistically more likely to seek Jesus; remember the Beatitude, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven." Indeed, in recent decades Christianity has grown a great deal in developing nations.

Right you are, but does it do them any good? How well do the Nicaraguans (or was it Guatemala?) fare with a Church that excommunicates a child rape victim, because her parents wanted her to have an abortion? Or Uganda, where they try to make homosexuality punishable by death???
And ultimately, has turning to Jesus improved life for the poor masses? There is no hard evidence for that, but for the reverse process there is (see Denmark)!

Further, even the most nonreligious countries of the West continue to be guided by their Judeo-Christian roots at some level. Much of the morality and ethics accepted by religious and nonreligious Westerners alike has been shaped by Judaism and Christianity. A large number of nonbelievers are, to a degree greater than what they might care to admit, cultural Christians.

That is the typically shameless hijacking of morale end ethics that Christians like to practice so often. All the ethic principles, like compassion, love your neighbor, cooperation etc. have been around since countless millenia before, even animals practice them! They were around long before Christianity arose, and they will be around long after it is completely forgotten.

Also, one cannot ignore the many lives (including my own) that have been changed for the better through embracing Christ. Quite possibly, I am not any better off materially than if I had not become a Christian in my early 20s. But it seems to me that every human being has an innate desire for spirituality, to know God. I personally felt a void that could only be filled by God. Filling this void, and endeavoring (though far from perfectly) to live by biblical principles has brought immeasurable peace and joy (not necessarily happiness) to my life.

And that might be right for you. I would offer as an alternative though, that taking the hard way and seeking truth through reason will be ultimately more rewarding and you are much less likely to encounter disappointments (e.g. like the rapture ).

 

[Yanquetino]

FYI from the 47-Nation Pew Global Attitudes Survey:

 

[abasile]

... truly happy people do not need religion. ... smart people, i.e. those who have successfully advanced their whole society, do not need religion. You might consider, that true happiness is indeed , on the scale of nations and civilizations, only attainable by enlightenment, reason and progress.

I would ask, what does it mean to be truly "happy"? Yes, one can certainly achieve temporal happiness without turning to God. Further, one can work intelligently and make substantial contributions to society without turning to God. On the other hand, if this present life is all that we have, and all of humanity completely ceases to exist at some future time, then life is really an exercise in futility. Everything we work for will one day disappear. I personally found it very difficult to be content with that notion. Perhaps many who seem to be "happy" in this life are willfully ignoring their eternal destiny. I would find that very hard to do, and at the same time, I find great joy in knowing that our existence was planned outside of space and time by a highly intelligent Creator. No, that joy does not always translate into temporal happiness, but I find that to be secondary.

As for "enlightenment, reason, and progress", yes, those are wonderful things. In fact, believing that the universe is ordered and that it is designed for our learning can tend to motivate discovery. As such, my understanding is that the Judeo-Christian worldview played a significant role in jumpstarting the West's scientific and technological development over the last few hundred years. That's not to say certain elements within the Church didn't resist progress for political reasons.

You are right, some of the southern states are doing economically well, yet they rank not among the happy ones...In all these places you mentioned, you cannot fail to notice a certain oppressive social climate, tightly coupled with religiosity. If you go one step further, people in theocracies like Iran or Saudi Arabia (the latter one is quite well off economically) are generally not very happy. Certainly their gods, to which they so fervently pray, do not provide them with lots of inner peace and fulfillment?

While I have never spent much time in the South, I will say that an "oppressive social climate" is not something that I've found to be problematic in the churches I've been a part of. While I've had my disagreements with church leaders on topics including science and politics, I have personally found plenty of tolerance for differences of opinion on points that are not absolutely central to the Christian faith. Obviously there are some bad church leaders, and overly dogmatic leaders. One does need to be wise as to which church one joins.

Also, I would have to say that the God of the Bible differs greatly in terms of character and nature from the deities described by all other "holy" books. For me, comparing nominally Christian countries with Muslim countries is like comparing apples and oranges. Interestingly, from what I have been reading, increasing numbers of Iranians have been turning to Christ, having grown fed up with the way the local brand of Islam is forced down their throats.

How well do the Nicaraguans (or was it Guatemala?) fare with a Church that excommunicates a child rape victim, because her parents wanted her to have an abortion? Or Uganda, where they try to make homosexuality punishable by death???

Those are extreme cases, especially the latter, more the exception and not the rule. Scorched earth policies generally don't work very well at conveying the love of God.

And ultimately, has turning to Jesus improved life for the poor masses?

Yes, in a variety of ways. Ever hear of the Protestant work ethic? Besides receiving comfort in difficult circumstances, many of the world's poor have been greatly blessed in physical, tangible ways by Christian ministries such as WorldVision.

There is no hard evidence for that, but for the reverse process there is (see Denmark)!

I think Denmark's culture remains significantly influenced by its centuries-long Judeo-Christian heritage. Cultural changes take generations to fully manifest themselves, whether for good or for bad. Check back in another few generations. Of course, by then, Western Europe could be majority Muslim.

All the ethic principles, like compassion, love your neighbor, cooperation etc. have been around since countless millenia before, even animals practice them!

If anything, that helps validate the position taken in Scripture that all of humanity has been given some innate sense of morality. Unfortunately, you can't take it for granted that cultures will live by those morals/ethics. Even if Christianity is merely echoing what is innate, it can steer cultures in the right direction.

I would offer as an alternative though, that taking the hard way and seeking truth through reason will be ultimately more rewarding and you are much less likely to encounter disappointments (e.g. like the rapture ).

Again, seeking truth through reason need not be mutually exclusive with having faith. The problem with reason alone is that it relies on our human experience, which is necessarily very limited in scope. We can use reason to examine our faith, as well as to learn whatever we can within the scope of our experience.

Disappointment often stems from unrealistic expectations. If one unreasonably expects the Rapture to occur tomorrow, or that they are guaranteed to become healthy, wealthy, and wise as a result of turning to Christ, then disappointment is almost inevitable. But I don't expect to be disappointed when I am resurrected with Christ in the new Creation to come.

 

[DaveEV]

On the other hand, if this present life is all that we have, and all of humanity completely ceases to exist at some future time, then life is really an exercise in futility. Everything we work for will one day disappear. I personally found it very difficult to be content with that notion.

I am quite comfortable that after I die - there will be nothing left of me. And that some time in the future - is it quite possible that humanity will cease to exist as well.

But does that make life an exercise in futility? Perhaps. But Darwinism has instilled in us the will to live - so live we will.